Newish owner needs advice

[Jillianj]

@lvoss:

In general, it is best when you want a dog to move not to touch him but instead ask him to move by calling him over to you using his name, using hand targeting or a command like go to mat to send him to a different location.

but what if you are in the bed or on the couch and you need to move and they are leaning on you, do you then give the command?

[khanis]

I am really confused here…
you aren't allowing him on the couch...
but you are letting him on the bed?
That is how the last post reads, it is quite confusing.

I also agree that the alpha training [which is not what you are describing] is a set-up for failure… in one way or another... and usually ending in someone getting hurt/bit/etc.

In all my years of having Basenjis... the very best way to get anything out of them, is REWARD BASED TRAINING. It gives them a reason to want to do something for you. Not to do it just because you are the human and they are the dog.
After all, why go fetch the stick that the stupid human threw?? Leave that for the Labs that can't think of a good reason not to get it.
I have never seen Alpha Training that works with a Basenji in the long-term.

[Jillianj]

Sorry for not being clear. No not allowed in the bed or on the couch, I was just trying to figure how I could have him do those things when in the past he was growly and nippy when moved. He used to be allowed to do both because that is what we wanted ( and he LOVES it) but he would growl and snarl when we nugged him or moved him to get comphy. I will try treat training, but I would love him to be able to get exercise by fetching.

[Kipawa]

Perhaps as basenjis are so darn intelligent (and a bit stubborn) training needs to start very very early. Regarding alpha training, does it not come naturally even if you are using reward based training? I guess what I mean is, will any training set the human up as the alpha?

[Quercus]

I would suggest you investigate the methods of other trainers. Not all techniques work equally well with all dogs; we are telling you that this particular way of training often backfires with Basenjis, and creates the exact problem you were trying to eliminate.

[Jillianj]

Andrea what would you suggest for leash pulling

[MacPack]

As Andrea says, some training methods work better with certain breeds.
Step back and look at your situation: what you are currently doing IS NOT WORKING or you wouldn't have these problems and be asking for suggestions.
Consider starting all over with methods that folks here (who have had basenjis for many years) are suggesting. Like people, different dogs learn and respond differently, continuing to do something that is not working will likely not give you the results you want. I suggest reading "The Other End of the Leash" by Dr. Patricia McConnell, or other books that people have recommended.
When I am doing something that isn't working, I need to stop and look with fresh eyes and re-evaluate my approach. Especially if the situation is getting worse.

Good luck to you!

[starrlamia]

@Kipawa:

Perhaps as basenjis are so darn intelligent (and a bit stubborn) training needs to start very very early. Regarding alpha training, does it not come naturally even if you are using reward based training? I guess what I mean is, will any training set the human up as the alpha?

If you read the link i posted above it debunks the whole alpha theory. The studies they used to create the basis for alpha training have all been disproved over the years. Alpha dogs/wolves in packs are not violent or aggressive leaders, rather it is the beta and lower dogs that are constantly fighting for the hierarchy. It is really interested to read about how an actual pack functions.

[JayCee]

Just want to add that I agree with the positive/reward based training. It is the way to go for happy and harmonious life with your Basenji, or any other dog or cat for that matter.

The whole Alpha role and the rigid pack structure in relation to domestic dogs - and in fact wolves has now been retracted by the very people who first popularised it - see David Mech http://www.davemech.org/news.html.

Also I hate the term 'stubborn' when used with Basenji's - they are more than willing to do something if you show them there is a valid reason for it. If they are not doing something its not their fault you've not shown them why its in their best interest to do it. And quite rightly, my boy will not go out into the rain unless I go with him - if he has to get wet so do I - I can't fault his logic on that :rolleyes:

I would recommend the Patricia McConnell book too. I also like Jean Donaldon's 'The Culture Clash' for making me view things from a dog's perspective. I've also just ordered her book, 'Train your dog like a Pro' which I hope will also give some extra insights and tips on getting the best out of my boys.

[Jillianj]

The training might not be working but I also believe in giving something time. Thanks for your opinions I will keep them in mind. I am not sure if I am using the right word "Alpha" for the training because it's neither violent or aggressive, it's just umbilical training. I want my dog to obey me from respect and love not because he is waiting for a treat, I dont believe in tricking my dog into obedience. I was just curious and looking for tips to help with the nipping and pulling on the leash, still really haven't recieved that info just arguing againt alpha training.Thanks all the same.

[Quercus]

@Jillianj:

Andrea what would you suggest for leash pulling

Lots of the references that people have listed have some great techniques for training polite walking. Most them are based on the premise that the dog never gets to go forward when the leash is tight. There are many variations on a theme from trainer to trainer. Of course, dogs need exercise, and you can't get much if you have to stop every few feet..so during the time that you are training the dog, I prefer to use a Sensible (or Sensation) harness, or Easy Walker, as LVoss mentioned. It keeps the dog from being able to practice the habit of pulling, while you are teaching him a new skill. You can also use a Gentle Leader head halter; they are very effective in controling the dog, but lots of dogs really dislike wearing them. You can google any of these walking aides and get more info on them

[JayCee]

@Jillianj:

The training might not be working but I also believe in giving something time. Thanks for your opinions I will keep them in mind. I am not sure if I am using the right word "Alpha" for the training because it's neither violent or aggressive, it's just umbilical training. I want my dog to obey me from respect and love not because he is waiting for a treat, I dont believe in tricking my dog into obedience. I was just curious and looking for tips to help with the nipping and pulling on the leash, still really haven't recieved that info just arguing againt alpha training.Thanks all the same.

A popular misconception is that positive/reward training is just 'bribing' the dog - this is not the case at all if done correctly. It reinforces the behaviours you like, so the dog will repeat them more frequently. This principle underlies all interactions with the dog, which is why we keep on saying how good it is as it applies whether to lead walking or asking your dog to get off the couch or nipping. By just not rewarding the undesired behaviours they diminish in frequency.

Unfortunately I have never heard of 'Alpha training by Bill Paterson' - can you direct us to where we can find out more? Also have never heard of the term 'umbilical training' so again do not understand what you've been doing.

[Jillianj]

@JayCee:

A popular misconception is that positive/reward training is just 'bribing' the dog - this is not the case at all if done correctly. It reinforces the behaviours you like, so the dog will repeat them more frequently. This principle underlies all interactions with the dog, which is why we keep on saying how good it is as it applies whether to lead walking or asking your dog to get off the couch or nipping. By just not rewarding the undesired behaviours they diminish in frequency.

Unfortunately I have never heard of 'Alpha training by Bill Paterson' - can you direct us to where we can find out more? Also have never heard of the term 'umbilical training' so again do not understand what you've been doing.

I was told harnesses teach a dog to pull, I use a martingale collar. Umbilical it just attaching the leash to your waist so they follow your movements. Its harmless. I find it helpful when we jog together. I also like NILIF (nothing in life is free) which someone here suggested. I just want him to walk nice on the leash and not pull, I guess I will buy some books. I came here to see about getting a specific trick or suggestion that worked for someone else.

[Quercus]

@Jillianj:

I was told harnesses teach a dog to pull, I use a martingale collar. Umbilical it just attaching the leash to your waist so they follow your movements. Its harmless. I find it helpful when we jog together. I also like NILIF (nothing in life is free) which someone here suggested. I just want him to walk nice on the leash and not pull, I guess I will buy some books. I came here to see about getting a specific trick or suggestion that worked for someone else.

Harnesses where the leash connects at the back WILL encourage pulling. The ones we are speaking about attach at the chest, which turns the dog back around towards you when they pull.

Honestly, and I don't mean this in an offensive way…but as a breeder, the description of what you want from your dog would have made me discourage you from our breed. Basenjis just aren't wired that way to love and respect you because they are your dog. You may have to re-evaluate everything you know and understand about dogs and dog ownership...because Basenjis are an adventure

[Jillianj]

thanks:) I will check all this out

[sharronhurlbut]

Jilliaj, did you ever say who you got this basenji from?

[tanza]

@Quercus:

Harnesses where the leash connects at the back WILL encourage pulling. The ones we are speaking about attach at the chest, which turns the dog back around towards you when they pull.

Honestly, and I don't mean this in an offensive way…but as a breeder, the description of what you want from your dog would have made me discourage you from our breed. Basenjis just aren't wired that way to love and respect you because they are your dog. You may have to re-evaluate everything you know and understand about dogs and dog ownership...because Basenjis are an adventure

Well put Andrea… I totally agree.... Basenjis are different... and they are not for everyone...

[Patty M]

@Jillianj:

I want my dog to obey me from respect and love not because he is waiting for a treat, I dont believe in tricking my dog into obedience. I was just curious and looking for tips to help with the nipping and pulling on the leash, still really haven't recieved that info just arguing againt alpha training.Thanks all the same.

Hi Jillian,
I understand where you are coming from, where you want your dog to do things because he loves you and not because you tricked him.

I have two dogs, a rat terrier, and a basenji. Joker, my rat terrier, is very much like the dog you describe- if I raise my voice and tell him to COME, or to GET HIM, he will do exactly that. When we are running, I can give him a long reign and he won't tug (until that silly squirrel shows up, and then it's a free for all!). If I say, "BY ME" when we are running, he will heel and stop pulling. At night, he is loving and affectionate and will curl up on my bed to cuddle. We've had him since he was 4 months old.

My second dog, Lola, looks very similar to Joker, but is pure Basenji. Capital B. She IS wonderful when we run, and doesn't pull or take the lead very often…. although if it's raining out and she wants to go home, she will adamantly sit down and refuse to budge if we are running the wrong way. When we run together, I am teaching her the word, "TREATS", so that she is learning to come TO me, to sit down, to wait for the treat, and while she is eating the treat, I am touching her head, her ears, and her collar. This is all in an attempt to prepare for the THE DAY that Lola escapes from the house and is outside without her leash on.

Because we have learned the hard way. When Lola sneaks outside and is off her leash, it's a free-for-all. The rule book is forgotten and she won't come. Won't stay. I can raise my voice, plead, run towards her, run away, throw a ball.... no difference. Sometimes, it works if my Joker rounds her up... but at that point, it's up to Lola. I am trying to teach her that TREATS are awesome, but so far, she's not convinced.

She's not trying to be naughty, nor vindictive, nor any other emotions that we humans attach to this behavior. She's simply being a Basenji. Capital B. And I wouldn't trade her for all the tea in China. When she's inside, and cuddled on my bed, or next to me on the couch, she's so adorable. When she wakes up in the morning, Lola must yawn 20 times before she decides to get up, strrreeeetttchhhh her back like a kitty, curls up again… and then get ready to go outside. She will find the little sliver of sunshine on the living room carpet in the morning, and curl up on that spot.... 15 minutes later, Lola wakes up, finds that she's no longer in the sunshine and will shift over, and go back to sleep. She will bat things around like she's a kitty, and if she sees a fly in the house, she will follow that poor critter around, determined to eat it! She cuddles with Joker, cleans his eyes and ears, and when she wants to play with him, she tears around the house like a tasmanian devil.... her energy is limitless!

I can't really give you advice on the nipping, as Lola isn't aggressive. To me, nipping sounds like playtime that's become too playful? If that's the case, I would think a corrective NO! NO BITE!, followed by the stopping of the playing activity, would work. If it's more aggressive, like when you want your dog to move, then perhaps you should snap first, point to where you want him to go, call his name, give him the command, and then continue to snap, point, and use the command.... that may work? Followed by petting of his ears and praising him when he's done the task? And if treats are available, reward him with a treat?

(At the risk of starting another debate.... you can always try the squirt bottle trick to get your dog OFF the furniture?)

Did you mention whether your pup has been neutered yet? If not, perhaps part of the aggression is related to entering puberty? I think it's common in un-altered dogs to be more aggressive.

My last words of advice is to be patient, both with yourselves and with your pup. Someone told me that no matter how many books or manuals I've read to understand my Basenji, Lola can't read. In my mind, the wonderful charm of Basenjis is that they are loving, loyal, smart…. and crafty. They get bored with the ordinary; if you put up an obstacle, they view it as a challenge to solve. My sister told me that her Basenji has just learned how to open the gates at the dog park, because he's so excited to get inside! How many other dogs can do that? :p

Well wishes and a couple of ROOOs to you! I hope we can give you the support you need to better understand your Basenji. Capital B.

[lvoss]

Using positive reinforcement training and using treats as the reward is not bribing nor tricking the dog to do what you want. It is rewarding the dog for making good choices so it is more likely to make good choices in the future.

Most people don't work for free and most are less productive workers when they feel they are being under paid. Why do we expect that our dogs are going to be different? They want to know "what's in this for me?" and when they feel that the pay off isn't all that great they aren't that motivated to do it.

[JayCee]

Hi JillianJ,

One of the things I love about being with my hounds is that just when you start to feel confident that you know what you are doing, they will do something that makes you question what you've been doing for the past weeks, months and sometimes even years.

My comment with the attaching the leash to you and expecting your boy to follow you, is what are you hoping to achieve with this? Again I don't know the how's and where's of you doing this. But for instance I would never attach my boy to me in the house or garden as I often want to do stuff without my dog under my feet - eg cooking in the kitchen - or mowing the lawn, so to my mind it would be unfair to reward the dog for staying close to me one minute and then expect them to settle away from me in the next.

In addition, how does using the leash as a tether one moment with umbilical training help or hinder your on-leash walking - is it clear to the dog what is being required of him on each occasion?

A dear friend who is now frail and in her late 70's still walks her Irish Wolfhound and Deerhound daily, people often comment how nicely her hounds walk and when asked how she taught them, she simply replies, 'I never put a lead on them until they wanted to follow me' - therefore she and the dogs are always of the same purpose.

Whilst its not always possible to do this (I couldn't with my boy as we were apt living for his first 9 months), it is a good measure to go by, that if you dog will not accompany you without a lead why on earth do we think they will with a lead! However I now have a garden and that's what I'm working on improving now, so no lead, but making a game of him following me in the garden and getting rewarded when he is close to my left leg. In time I'll introduce a command, and then a lead! Meanwhile I will still continue with my old on leash walking protocol by stopping when he pulls - but the way he has learnt that (or I've taught it!) is that he goes to the end of his leash and then he has to stop. As its harder to reteach something, hence I'm starting over in a different way.

JC