11-week basenji nips my 5y/o.

[chronicresearch]

well… we've been using the "ouch!!!" and give an alternative... method thus far. but to be honest, it hasn't been working all that great... (but i'm sure patience is key). It does seem as though she has lessened the pressure at which she nips and actually goes for clothes more than parts of the body now... but the nipping continues.

when she does grab a hold of clothing, she tends not to let go... and rather than get into a tugging match with her, i gently place a finger into the the side of her mouth at which time, she'll let go...

Generally, when she starts this, she'll continue... basically, once she lets go, she'll be at it again within the next 15 seconds... we've tried engaging her by playing with her in more appropriate manner, i.e. "fetch".. well.. attempted fetch...lol. but nothing really settles her down. even sitting down petting her, she'll flip on her back to have her belly rubbed and she'll get really mouthy in the process... it appears that she simply gets more worked up if we engage her. I've tried placing her in her crate after and giving a toy/treat and let her stay in there for 10 minutes or so... and she'll settle... but when we let her out, she's at it again...

It's kind of hard to tell if any progress is being made since she has good days and bad days...

Also... she is not like this the VAST majority of the day... in fact, she's a perfect angel most of the day... extremely obedient, and very close to being house trained (not that we'd trust her alone just yet...lol)... but she roams the house most of the day, finding places to nap and sun bathe... she rings a bell to exit and enter the house... all in all a super sweetheart and well mannered... it's really just twice a day that she becomes somewhat "rowdy."... in the mornings, and early evenings... and she's like this for maybe a half hour or so... it's just like she's a totally different puppy! Jumping on the furniture, sprinting around, and trying to nip people.... she's obviously having fun because she's play bowing, and just looks like she's having the time of her life. but she certainly won't listen to any kind of commands to sit or down... even though she KNOWS "sit" and "down" very well... (as she does it ALL the time except when she's in this mode...).

She does get walked in the morning for about 30-45 minutes... and on somedays, she gets walked in the evening... but she is played with throughout the day... her version of fetch... which is us throwing a toy and her running to it and pouncing on it... with an occasional retrieval!

At any rate... we're continuing to do what we are doing in hopes that she'll catch on... she's a very smart pup from what i see MOST of the time... it just appears that she has no desire to listen for these short bouts of time.../sigh... Either way... we just figure... persistence... persistence...persistence...

any further recommendations would be greatly appreciated... anything i can try, or adjust to what i am already doing... or do i simply stay the course? i just want her to engage in any other way, rather than nipping at people/clothes.... We're patient with her... but for a pup that learns things fairly quickly, she's having a bit of trouble catching on to this...

Oh and Tanza.... Carol said that the litter didn't really display any real heirarchy... no pup really displayed being alpha or othewise.. they simply got along very well...so nothing really to report there...

thoughts???

[sharronhurlbut]

If she nips, hands or clothes, shreek, loud, and walk away. No more play.
It will really work.
Have you gotten her into a gentle basic obedience class yet? If not, that will help all of the family learn to work with her, and it will help her learn her place.

[mags]

I probably should have mentioned that we started off doing this (holding her mouth closed and saying "NO" and "No Bite") until she understood the words alone so just like any other training when you are teaching dogs simple commands: "sit", "give me paw", "up", "lay down", "drop it", etc…you say the words and show the dog the action until they eventually understand with words alone (or signs of course). Again, I'm no expert but from enough research, animal behavior conditioning, and from previous experience with other dogs, we've never had a problem (but we've never owned a Basenji until now either

Our dog is constantly in our faces getting a million kisses everyday so she is very used to face contact and we've never "harsely" forced her mouth down- we simply closed her mouth with enough force as if holding a child's hand and she never seemed terrified of us. We only did this once she was used to us and comfortable so she definitely seems to understand that biting is wrong because now she stops when we tell her "no bite" and we dont even have to hold her mouth down anymore.

I definitely do understand how "harsh" treatment causes dogs to become weary and head shy in time but again, we are not displaying forceful, harsh behavior on our dog. I think it takes knowing your dog really well to know the type of discipline that should be enforced and I know positive discipline is the best way but there arent many methods that I've researched that work on getting a dog to stop biting and being forceful/aggressive with your dog will obviously lead to issues down the road as those of you have pointed out which I agree with.

I am not saying this works with other dogs - it just works on ours and a dog is a dog so an accident can happen at ANY time. Even if our dog continues to be the sweetest thing ever, I am not going to leave my 4 yr old daughter with her alone or let her torment the dog when she wants to play. We have enough sense to know that it doesnt matter if you have a great tempered dog, anything can happen at any time and yes, displaying harsh behavior on a dog will most likely lead to an accident waiting to happen but again, we are not being harsh with her (its one of those things that you need to see for yourself to understand as perhaps I wasnt too clear on exactly how we were doing this in my earlier post).

We've seen too many dogs take control of the household because their owners didnt know how to handle the dog so they would get out of hand and wind up in a shelter (our previous dog was this exact example- the owners were afraid of her and never corrected the negative behaviors until she became aggressive- we took her in for awhile and she was never aggressive with us or our child- in fact she was the complete opposite of what they told us- very sweet and good tempered. She had issues with other dogs but not with us and after awhile we saw improvement in her behavior with strangers and other dogs by socializing her everyday). Animals can sense how people are and even though our dog knows we are in charge-we've NEVER hit her or acted abusive to her in any way to make her understand we are in charge of the household. Holding a dogs mouth to the point where you are causing pain is obviously abusive and that is not what we are doing.

So anyway, not trying to cause a battle here but I needed to clarify exactly what I meant and that I am simply sharing what we do (an opinion) not to offer methods that I claim work on all dogs - just ours and I don't think we are being harsh in any way but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
A dog who becomes head shy or doesnt let you near his/her face, put a collar on, etc was definitely a dog that was mistreated so again, no abuse being done on our dog - by far! She is the most spoiled thing ever and would tell you herself if she could speak

[lvoss]

If she nips clothes then play is done. You can either give a time out or if she redirects to a training session then that is fine. If she is learning to inhibit her bite when she bites skin then that is good. That is what you want and then slowly over time get her to stop biting all together. You want that soft mouth first then the no bite.

I would also recommend Its Yer Choice to help teach her some impulse control. That may help her to stop going over threshold so quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipT5k1gaXhc

[sharronhurlbut]

Thank you for giving us more info.

[mags]

Hi lvoss -

Thank you - really good advice.
I'm totally open to suggestions - I just never found any other way to make our pup stop biting. She actually is really good and stops herself from biting - she has always appeared to do the soft mouth bite and would look at us while she was doing this to our arms lets say and then we would say no bite and she would stop and start licking us. I mean, we've never seen such a smart, obedient dog. She seems to learn so fast so I swear we never had to hold her mouth closed for a long time. She learns commands after a few times and so its a matter of being consistent with her.

I wonder why Basenjis are so mouthy? Does anyone know where that comes from? I'm just curious. Our dog, Willow learned the "no bite" real quick but its almost like she cant control herself and just wants to put her mouth on you so just wondering why that is. Do they just do this as pups and eventually outgrow it or its just the breed that loves biting/chewing on everything?

Thanks for the tips.

[tanza]

All puppies are mouthy… that is how they communicate, it is not just Basenjis. Mine do not and never have "love biting".... Chewing, same thing that is what puppies do...

And if you watch two puppies play.... or even the entire litter... what do they use? Their mouth.. and it is biting "each other" that they begin to get the concept of "soft bite"... and again I stress... this goes for all breeds...

[mags]

Yes, I understand all breeds are mouthy and of course they communicate with each other that way but what I mean is that from everything I've read about Basenji's- they are known to always be mouthy and chew things moreso than other breeds so I was just trying to understand if its just part of their breed (where they are more destructive/mouthy than other breeds) or what the reason was…again, just curious

[lvoss]

Honestly, basenjis are not even close to the mouthiest of breeds. Labs are way worse. I grew up with labs and worked with many labs that got dumped at the shelter because they seem to stay adolescents forever.

Even within the breed there is alot of variation in the amount of mouthiness.

[tanza]

@mags:

Yes, I understand all breeds are mouthy and of course they communicate with each other that way but what I mean is that from everything I've read about Basenji's- they are known to always be mouthy and chew things moreso than other breeds so I was just trying to understand if its just part of their breed (where they are more destructive/mouthy than other breeds) or what the reason was…again, just curious

As they say, don't believe everything you read…. they do NOT chew more then other breeds,... Unless Bored... and then they do.... if there is a couch that they "dig" on and a thread comes loose... they worry it until they get to the "stuffing"... and keep going...

It comes to all about boundries.... which is true with all breeds...

[sharronhurlbut]

Re digging on couches. I find if I put a throw on the couch, the b's can dig on that, and the couch underneath is intact.
MAKE it a big throw!

[tanza]

@sharronhurlbut:

Re digging on couches. I find if I put a throw on the couch, the b's can dig on that, and the couch underneath is intact.
MAKE it a big throw!

Yes, Basenjis are "nesters"… and they will dig to get that spot just right to lie in...

[agilebasenji]

@lvoss:

Honestly, basenjis are not even close to the mouthiest of breeds. Labs are way worse. I grew up with labs and worked with many labs that got dumped at the shelter because they seem to stay adolescents forever.

Even within the breed there is alot of variation in the amount of mouthiness.

+1 I was thinking about labs too when "mouthiness" was metioned. Of course labs, as a breed, have been bred to have a soft mouth.

Also +1 with the throws on the sofa. I bought sheepskins for dogs from sierra trading post for a xmas present for my boys. One of the sheepskins is on the sofa, they seem to like it. Digital (aka "diggie") likes to dig a lot (it's a name thing I think. I did not name him) and it's still in good shape.

[basenji_fan]

I'd like to also suggest on top of the "good" suggestions of everyone else when the dog is nipping and grabbing the clothes: is to NOT pull back. To just FREEZE- stop moving, then give your verbal corrections then remove the clothing from the dogs mouth by putting the gentle pressure there at the corner of the back of the mouth until they open. If it is a towel or balnket do the same thing. Mine does this when I am drying him off and he gets excited, and I just stop drying, tightly grip the towel now give the verbal correction of "drop it" and he will spit out the towel.

Sometimes he will get froggy and grab my pants in play, and I stop play and say "drop it" he spits out my pant leg. He unfortunately learned the pant leg thing from my boxer though. Same thing can be done with long sleeved shirt.

If you pull away from the dog you are showing them that you are trying to play a "tug" game with them. Just stop moving and then teach them the "drop it" command.

[chronicresearch]

@basenji_fan:

I'd like to also suggest on top of the "good" suggestions of everyone else when the dog is nipping and grabbing the clothes: is to NOT pull back. To just FREEZE- stop moving, then give your verbal corrections then remove the clothing from the dogs mouth by putting the gentle pressure there at the corner of the back of the mouth until they open. If it is a towel or balnket do the same thing. Mine does this when I am drying him off and he gets excited, and I just stop drying, tightly grip the towel now give the verbal correction of "drop it" and he will spit out the towel.

Sometimes he will get froggy and grab my pants in play, and I stop play and say "drop it" he spits out my pant leg. He unfortunately learned the pant leg thing from my boxer though. Same thing can be done with long sleeved shirt.

If you pull away from the dog you are showing them that you are trying to play a "tug" game with them. Just stop moving and then teach them the "drop it" command.

Thank you! I'm trying to teach the kids to stop, but they seem to have a natural tendency to back away. My 8 y/o has learned to deal with the nipping by herself, but my 5 y/o still has a tendency to back away while yelping, so i intervene there quickly.

[Kipawa]

@basenji_fan:

If you pull away from the dog you are showing them that you are trying to play a "tug" game with them. Just stop moving and then teach them the "drop it" command.

Thanks for mentioning this. I so agree with stopping the tug of war game if it starts. I've never thought of the "tug" game as anything but setting up for biting and mouthy play. If you do it, I think it's like you are telling your dog that it is acceptable for him to use his mouth harshly and to also get into a battle of power. Having a kong with a bit of peanut butter (if no allergies to nuts) inside of it is a much better way for a basenji to satisfy his chewing needs.

[listeme]

We despaired that it would ever stop with Zelda. My sister (basenji breeder) kept saying it will stop, don't worry, keep doing the "playtime over" thing! And then all of a sudden we were noticing, hey, she's not doing it. And now it's really done.

Zelda is – er, what, 20 weeks? Around now is when I start using months instead of weeks She's almost five months. So you should be getting real relief very soon using this method.

[chronicresearch]

@listeme:

We despaired that it would ever stop with Zelda. My sister (basenji breeder) kept saying it will stop, don't worry, keep doing the "playtime over" thing! And then all of a sudden we were noticing, hey, she's not doing it. And now it's really done.

Zelda is – er, what, 20 weeks? Around now is when I start using months instead of weeks She's almost five months. So you should be getting real relief very soon using this method.

Thank you. If nothing else, this is encouraging!!!

[tanza]

Everyone needs to remember that puppies are no different in a way then toddlers… how many times do you parents tell your toddlers the same thing over and over?.... How many of your toddlers listen the first time, second, third.... 50th, 500th... (gggg).... puppies are no different. They have a very short attention span... you can NOT expect that they will get it just because you tell them 10/20 times, several times a day.... it takes time... weeks... sometimes months. And remember your puppy is changing every day... and quickly.. They too have been through lots of changes already...

[listeme]

@tanza:

Everyone needs to remember that puppies are no different in a way then toddlers… how many times do you parents tell your toddlers the same thing over and over?.... How many of your toddlers listen the first time, second, third.... 50th, 500th... (gggg).... puppies are no different. They have a very short attention span... you can NOT expect that they will get it just because you tell them 10/20 times, several times a day.... it takes time... weeks... sometimes months. And remember your puppy is changing every day... and quickly.. They too have been through lots of changes already...

Exactly. The funny thing is that I knew this stuff, trusted my sister, knew RATIONALLY that it was working, and still kept bugging my poor sister. She's a saint, I tell you. We human grownups need to be told things 10/20 times ourselves!