@Saving thank you very much for the suggestions!
Cesar Milan in the UK - March 2010
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Wow, I really wish I could go to that….
The trick with Cesar Milan, is to listen to his advise and not his methods. His teachings on staying calm, strong posture, the way a dog thinks and interprets situations is spot on IMO. The advise he comes with between the sessions on the show is the most interesting.
However people quickly forget that his show is about fixing "problem" dogs, not raising dogs. Like he says in the show, he trains people. If you read his books you quickly realize he is not really all about being strict.What is sad, is when people watch his show, and then go right ahead and use his techniques on their dog as a regular method. Which I have seen very often.
I saw this girl walking her Shih Tzu, and she constantly kicked the dog on the side while walking whenever the dog wanted to move over to the grass (most likely to pee/poo). But this girl was so strict in keeping her dog to "walk nicely" she forgot that it has to be allowed to sniff and do it's business! I got real mad and commented when I passed her "Who do you think you are Cesar Millan?".I did talk to a guy on the Cesar Millan forums some 3 years ago, and he had a Basenji. Took a private session with Millan, he said (as they always do) he worked wonders and was not as violent as people think.
I also have read Cesar books and agree here. His show is about working with problem dogs and of course they are all edited. His books do not preach aggression or even striking a dog. We raised our Basenji using many of the techniques he mentions in his books. Those techniques involve staying calm, patient, taking long walks with your dog to bond, and establishing a pack mentality. The Pack order is a very important lesson in Cesar's books.
Cesar is very smart in the way he communicates that our dogs draw energy from us. If we are nervous our dogs pick it up. If we are angry our dogs pick it up, and when we are calm, our dogs pick it up as well.
I would suggest that people at least read through Cesar's books before coming to a conclusion on what he is all about.
One of the most important lessons I think anyone can learn from him is to allow your dog to be a dog.
Victoria is also a great trainer.
Jason
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Victoria is also a great trainer.
That's the girl from "It's me or the Dog"? Ugg, I can't stand her. She is full of double standards, and says one thing but does another.
I saw an episode that made me hate her. She is really a "distant minded" person, and does not care about people at all.
She was with this family that LOVED their dog. Too much, which naturally caused problems. However once she heard they had bought their dog from a pet store she lost it! Shouted, and was suddenly a VERY big "bitch", "NEVER, buy your dog from a store! It leads to puppy mills! Aahhh!!"
She went on and on, the family suddenly didn't even look her in the eyes after that. And it's obvious they felt really bad!
What pissed me off is, she didn't know jack about the store. For all she knew it was a local and private pet-store who only gets there dogs/pets from breeders.It's fine she wanted to warn people from buying from stores, but I really think she went overboard. After that I can't stand watching her. I have seen clips, and again she talks as if the owners are not there.
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That's the girl from "It's me or the Dog"? Ugg,
What pissed me off is, she didn't know jack about the store. For all she knew it was a local and private pet-store who only gets there dogs/pets from breeders..
And this is better in what way? puppies should NEVER be purchased from a store - she goes out of her way to put this across, of course its for TV so its a big dramatic speach, but read the impassioned emails on this forum re buying from a store or a mill and you will see the same exasperation that some people still do this and just perpetuate the problem.
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That's fine, but she acted like a child. All she had to do was talk in a calm manner and inform them of the horrors of puppymills. Would of been far more effective than shouting and stomping on the ground like an idiot.
I just find it odd that someone who informs people to stay calm with dogs, yet shouts at people… -
They each have different methods in approaching people. I would not be able to be in the same room with Ms. Stilwell for very long before wanting to throw her out a window. She's just annoying to me. Mr. Milan talks more low-key with the people, which is something that is easier for me to listen to. However, their core training for the animals is actually pretty close…lots of exercise and letting a dog be a dog. It's the details of their training methods that differ.
Ms. Stilwell uses a reward method with clickers and treats, associating food with good things. She looks at the whole picture, including diet...something many trainers do not do. Mr. Milan uses a positive/negative reinforcement method, using distraction to stop behavior and affection as the reward rather than food. He also looks at the big picture, but is more focused on how the people interact with their dog.
It was Ms. Stilwell's method of allowing greyhounds to run that I used on AJ to get him to come back to me when I call him. It is Mr. Milan's techniques that I use for AJ's propensity to be a trouble maker with other dogs. And I do not kick my dog. They both work and neither is violent. AJ is happy, healthy and safe...because he does what I need him to do: Come to me, drop that piece of whatever he found on the ground, get out from under that trailer, head up...to keep him from sniffing that interesting looking puddle of antifreeze.
I don't agree with everything either of them do, but I don't disagree with everything either. They both have good and effective methods.
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What pissed me off is, she didn't know jack about the store. For all she knew it was a local and private pet-store who only gets there dogs/pets from breeders.
It's fine she wanted to warn people from buying from stores, but I really think she went overboard. After that I can't stand watching her. I have seen clips, and again she talks as if the owners are not there.
In the US there is no such thing at a pet store that would have puppies from a responsible breeder, period. NO responsible breeder sells puppies to a pet store
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I did see a show where Cesar Milan was working with a Shiba Inu, who's personality was not unlike our B's. He recognized the difference and did control him - and made reference to the fact that the noise they make is somewhat like the noise Basenjis make, and it doesn't mean they are hurting - it's just the way they talk - I would like to see a show with him handling one of our dogs though - maybe someone in the UK will have one that is especially hard headed - like Shaye.
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@Rita:
Just sent email to Cesar Milan on his site now we shall see if get answer. Question have you ever trained Basenji if so when and what was the out come.
Rita Jean
If you do get an answer, please post it. We'd all like to know.
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For anyone looking for good resources on dog communication, I would highly recommend Turid Rugaas's Calming Signals and Sarah Kalnaj's The Language of Dogs. Once you really start understanding dog body language the difference in training methods becomes readily visible in the stress behaviors you begin to observe.
For those working in rescue Sarah Kalnaj also has a video titled Am I Safe?
I really like Sarah Kalnaj's videos because they have lots of footage of lots of dogs. Her seminars are also excellent if there is one in your area, I would highly recommend it. I believe she is currently touring with Sophia Yin another excellent animal behaviorist.
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In the US there is no such thing at a pet store that would have puppies from a responsible breeder, period. NO responsible breeder sells puppies to a pet store
Really? So out of the (most likely) thousands of pet-stores in the US not ONE could be run by a kind honest person?
I can understand staying away from chain/branch stores etc, but private owned is one big mixed bag of people.I was visiting Canada (family) some 4 years back, and we went to a private owned store, there the owner even had an approval diploma/certificate from the animal-rights org.
He sold his own puppies in the store (only if he had any, he never had it as a goal) which were German Shepards (I remember because there was one left, and it was SO cute), also he adopted/helped unwanted puppies/cats etc to sell in the store which he worked together with the local animal shelter in doing, as well having an "I need a home" board were people could hang up ads. -
In Sacramento, a couple of years ago, there was a news story about one of the "family owned" petstores. It made the news because the police had been called to investigate a foul odor on the property. They found the bodies of over 20 puppies behind the building. They had a parvo outbreak and had just dumped the dead and dying back there.
About 10 years ago there was a story about another private owned store where the owner sold only dogs she bred. In 3 years she had produced over 20 severely dysplastic Golden Retriever puppies. Even after she was informed of the first diagnosed as having no hip sockets at 6 months old, she continued to breed the parents and sell the puppies.
So around here the "family owned" or "local store" is far more likely to have substandard conditions than the chain stores.
The definition of responsible breeder used here in the US includes screening homes, staying in touch with owners to help when there are questions, and willingness to take back the puppy at any time for any reason, these criteria cannot be met by someone who just turns their pups over for sale in a commercial outlet.
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Really? So out of the (most likely) thousands of pet-stores in the US not ONE could be run by a kind honest person?
I can understand staying away from chain/branch stores etc, but private owned is one big mixed bag of people.I was visiting Canada (family) some 4 years back, and we went to a private owned store, there the owner even had an approval diploma/certificate from the animal-rights org.
He sold his own puppies in the store (only if he had any, he never had it as a goal) which were German Shepards (I remember because there was one left, and it was SO cute), also he adopted/helped unwanted puppies/cats etc to sell in the store which he worked together with the local animal shelter in doing, as well having an "I need a home" board were people could hang up ads.Exactly, there is NOT one run by a kind honest person that is responsible… maybe the person running the store might think they are getting pups from a responsible person, truth be told, there is not ONE responsible breeder that would ever sell their puppies to any type of pet store.
Having a "diploma/certificate" from some organization is no better then saying you have a USDA license to breeding and sell... worth nothing more then the paper it is written on... and if he is selling his own puppies, is he doing all the necessary health testing, especially critical on German Shepards with all their genetic problems.
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wow, I am a bit shocked over how you guys put everyone under the same roof. So lets say you, yourself a loving Basenji owner start a petstore, and decide to sell Basenjis.
You happen to know personally a few breeders, included yourself…but I guess that must mean your store is run buy an irresponsible person (you), and your puppies must be from an horrible evil breeders (even if you talk to them daily and know them personally for years) because we all know this has to be the case...
Despite your love, passion and dedication to give the puppies a good home.I have heard of American skepticism, and just how close minded many are, just never thought it to be true. Thanks for the demonstration...
You guys just can't believe someone fighting the good fight, and running a clean business? How sad. Well, it's a good thing you guys have that attitude and only support clean businesses like Wall-Mart instead of the little guy...oh wait....ah well, child labor ain't THAT bad...
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Stores do not care what homes puppies go into they care about a person's ability to pay the purchase price and that is all. Stores do not screen homes, stores do not make follow up calls and emails, stores do not take back dogs even a decade later because their owners can not care for them. Stores have one function to make a profit. In order to do that, they cannot put the care into puppies that is necessary to meet the definition of responsible.
So you are right if a breeder decided to open up a store front to sell their puppies and those of their friends to anyone who had the money to pay which is the function of a store, I would consider them irresponsible.
And you can go to petfinder and search the dogs and cats needing homes to see the reason why we feel this way. There is a real problem with irresponsible ownership as well as irresponsible breeding and pet stores support the irresponsible owner with more money than sense.
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I can do and do gladly support "the little guy" in my community. That having been said, the minute someone decides to sell animals from a storefront, they've lost my business, and here is why. A storefront has overhead, and staff, and insurance and still needs to make a profit. That is the purpose of a business, to make a profit. When you start selling animals for PROFIT, things start getting a little out of control. You have the pressure to cut corners on things like vet care, testing, etc so you can keep costs down. You have the tendency to let animals go to someone who can 'afford the price' instead of being sure that the best home is found. Companion animals are not a product to be bought and sold, they are living, breathing, feeling creatures with needs that the depend on us to provide for.
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I can do and do gladly support "the little guy" in my community. That having been said, the minute someone decides to sell animals from a storefront, they've lost my business, and here is why. A storefront has overhead, and staff, and insurance and still needs to make a profit. That is the purpose of a business, to make a profit. When you start selling animals for PROFIT, things start getting a little out of control. You have the pressure to cut corners on things like vet care, testing, etc so you can keep costs down. You have the tendency to let animals go to someone who can 'afford the price' instead of being sure that the best home is found. Companion animals are not a product to be bought and sold, they are living, breathing, feeling creatures with needs that the depend on us to provide for.
This couldn't be said any better!!!!
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Stores do not care what homes puppies go into they care about a person's ability to pay the purchase price and that is all. Stores do not screen homes, stores do not make follow up calls and emails, stores do not take back dogs even a decade later because their owners can not care for them. Stores have one function to make a profit. In order to do that, they cannot put the care into puppies that is necessary to meet the definition of responsible.
So you are right if a breeder decided to open up a store front to sell their puppies and those of their friends to anyone who had the money to pay which is the function of a store, I would consider them irresponsible.
And you can go to petfinder and search the dogs and cats needing homes to see the reason why we feel this way. There is a real problem with irresponsible ownership as well as irresponsible breeding and pet stores support the irresponsible owner with more money than sense.
I just can't grasp that attitude of "all private stores are evil, and don't care", even though you do not know the owner at all.
When I was a kid, a neighbor ran a pet store in his garage, and people who had a puppy or two they didn't manage to sell were allowed to have them in the store during the day, almost like a daycare, in hopes to give it a home. But I guess that was EVIL wasn't it?
Having a store because you love dogs, and having once in a while a puppy from a breeder you personally know is hardly irresponsible in my book. I guess it would be better to put the animal to sleep then instead of trying to give it a home?
You really hate people THAT much you judge all and everyone as the same? Dear lord…
Breeder are stores in a sense, they sell from home instead of a rented building. I am 100% sure there are "horror stories" of breeders doing "evil" as well. Puppy Mills are essentially breeders too....(note I am NOT condoning Puppy mills).
Ah well, I can see that this will go nowhere, and we have gone WAY off-topic.
I hope you go home to the people that produce all your items you buy for your dogs, you never know what they are up too after all...irresponsible people are lurking everywhere....
I can do and do gladly support "the little guy" in my community. That having been said, the minute someone decides to sell animals from a storefront, they've lost my business, and here is why. A storefront has overhead, and staff, and insurance and still needs to make a profit. That is the purpose of a business, to make a profit. When you start selling animals for PROFIT, things start getting a little out of control. You have the pressure to cut corners on things like vet care, testing, etc so you can keep costs down. You have the tendency to let animals go to someone who can 'afford the price' instead of being sure that the best home is found. Companion animals are not a product to be bought and sold, they are living, breathing, feeling creatures with needs that the depend on us to provide for.
What store doesn't want to make a profit? So your pet-store doesn't even sell fish, or small birds?
Anyways, I am talking about someone running a private store who want's to help give puppies a home, NOT having them in the store as a regular stock item. -
I just can't grasp that attitude of "all private stores are evil, and don't care", even though you do not know the owner at all.
When I was a kid, a neighbor ran a pet store in his garage, and people who had a puppy or two they didn't manage to sell were allowed to have them in the store during the day, almost like a daycare, in hopes to give it a home. But I guess that was EVIL wasn't it?
Having a store because you love dogs, and having once in a while a puppy from a breeder you personally know is hardly irresponsible in my book. I guess it would be better to put the animal to sleep then instead of trying to give it a home?
You really hate people THAT much you judge all and everyone as the same? Dear lord…
Breeder are stores in a sense, they sell from home instead of a rented building. I am 100% sure there are "horror stories" of breeders doing "evil" as well. Puppy Mills are essentially breeders too....(note I am NOT condoning Puppy mills).
Ah well, I can see that this will go nowhere, and we have gone WAY off-topic.
I hope you go home to the people that produce all your items you buy for your dogs, you never know what they are up too after all...irresponsible people are lurking everywhere....
You are missing my point. Dogs aren't PRODUCTS. That is my point.
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You are missing my point. Dogs aren't PRODUCTS. That is my point.
Nope, I got yours. You guys were just faster than me when I was writing my post. Added a quote to whom I was talking to now. :p
I have been talking about someone who takes in a dog to get it a home.
And if I recall correctly I remember someone here in the forums does indeed run a store and had a puppy who he took care of, and found it a home while keeping it in his store during the day…? -
The way I understand it is this.
A responsible breeder makes sure by way of having potential buyers visit their kennel(pups and adults) on site and by interviewing of sorts the new potential petowner to make sure of a good to perfect fit for the dog and person.
If you are in a store environment, odds are the person coming in looking for a pet, will walk out with one that day, no visiting to make sure this is what you want/should have, nor does the "breeder" have the opportunity to refuse a person not fit for the breed or breeder( I don't mean that in a bad way, but sometimes I can see certain people not being fit for the breed, so therefor not fit for the breeder either). It becomes more of an instant love thing as supposed to an educated purchase.
In Europe I don't think the problem is a s huge as it is here. People here will go to the mall for a sweater and come home with a puppy, because it was cute, not thinking twice of the fact that their apartment building doesn't allow animals, or it will cost X amount to have the pet vetted and fed, or it will grow up and not be cute anymore, but maybe large and a lot of work to take care of..
Petstores, puppymills and BYB's have left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths..thank them for this, not the responsible breeders for being skeptical.I hope what I am saying makes sense, I know what I am trying to say..just don't know how to word it correctly.
