New foster Sophia need some advice

[tanza]

Patty M, I disagree with leaving food down anytime…. I beleive that they should eat when the food is put down, if they do not in a reasonable amount of time it is taken away until the next feeding. And I also think that for an adult, two meals are better... one in the AM and one in the PM. I suppose that if you really want to "free feed" you can manage with one dog, but certainly not with more then one. You really never know "who" is eating what or when....

And I am glad that West Coast Flea has found some ideas that have helped and glad that she is in contact with the BRAT coordinator.. that said, I am not in favor of Cesar form of training, in particular the hold down practice. While it might work once or twice, if you ever get in a battle of wills, you will not win and someone will get seriously hurt. There are better ways of teaching your Baseni (or any dog) who is the "leader" of the pack

[Patty M]

Hi Pat F,
The reason we put food down all the time for Lola is because she was obsessed with food. In Lola's old home, she was fed 1/3 cup morning, noon, and night because her family was told that was "best" for the dog. As a result, Lola pooped morning, noon, and night. So in her old home, Lola was confined to the kitchen, as it was the non-carpeted area of the home.

When Lola became part of our home, we taught her that food was not an issue, and that she could "eat all she could" when it was offered. Now that she's realized that food supply is not an issue, she has slowed down in her food aggressiveness, and has become more (basenji) normal. She no longer steals hot dogs (from the other side of the bun) when my kids are eating on the couch. We also have a rat terrier that has adjusted to Miss Lola. Since we only have 2 dogs, we can watch as they eat to make sure that both are getting fed enough.

I agree that Cesar training is not always the basenji way. Have you ever seen a basenji featured on his show? NOT! lol. The best thing for any basenji is positive reinforcement, praise, treats, and lots of petting!

[DebraDownSouth]

I have to add that just knowing you are following Cesar at all has me concerned. If you never believe anything else I write, believe this… his ideas are damaging to your relationship with your dog. There is a HUGE difference between leading your dog and dominating it. Cesar hasn't a clue.

I also agree with Pat, once a day feeding isn't advised by any research. Nor do most recommend leaving food down. I am glad it works for Patty, but that is not the norm. Nor would I ever consider feeding once a day to have a dog poop once a day (though I understand that was not her motivation). Dogs, like humans, produce stomach bile. Going long periods of time without food isn't good. In addition, 2 or more feedings help keep blood levels normal. I would rather work directly on food issues (and USE that for training!) than limit to one meal and leave food down.

Congrats though on the breakthrough. Your confidence is the key.

[listeme]

Yeah, I'd be USING the food, for sure! She loves food, she is obsessed with it – and you are the one who has the hands

[nobarkus]

Sophia is jacked up right now. It's all new and you are too. When I brought Buddy home last year from the Basenji rescue at 8 months old he would have bouts of being wacko. Not mean or humping me just a bit wild crazy. It took some time and patience on my part for him to start calming down. The one weapon I used was just plain wearing him out. Has she had any socializing yet?

[erica ruth]

hi, i am sure its just going to time for her to settle in. she will be nervous and need to be near you. but realy i feel if you continue to let her disturb you while working by sneeking on your lap and following you closely, she MAY become dominant. and require your attention all the while we had similar probs with previous basenji. Keep her occopied with toys and hide treats in little boxes to amuse her. also i was told humpin the leg was a attempt at dominance. long,long walks is something she may need too. hope it works out as the basenji can be a pain but also a tremendous joy when you get it right… erica & wingco

[westcoastflea1]

opinion on feeding?
mine is that every dog and situation is unique so feeding isnt a one size fits all plan
my basenji maya was able to eat whenever she wanted for 10 years cast iron stomach pooped once a day and was never overweight
for sophia i have started giving one cup in the morning she eats most of it then poops she eats some later when she gets hungry again
and sometimes i give her a bit more in the evening
cesar
while everyone may not agree with all of cesars methods i believe that the principles behind them are sound

how many of us have seen moms who let their kids run all over
because they want their kids to be happy?
ignore their own wants and needs in the name of mommy self sacrifice to keep the little monsters happy?
i was one
so to have anyone give you permission to use rules boundaries and limitations and actually show you that your dog is happier for it is huge,
deb down souths very blunt post was my light bulb moment, that and the advice given by my brat coordinator
so i took the basic advice from deb and then used methods ive seen on cesar and started implementing them,
i have also used the advice given by someone else here which was to keep her on a leash and make her follow me around the house

my roommate was cooking so rather then let sophia bother him, jumping on the counters etc etc i put her on a leash and sat in the kitchen and made her sit and be calm while watching him

when i lay sophia down she does not struggle, the most she will do is put her head up to look at me, i make her put it down and wait til she relaxes enough that i can take my hands off of her and she stays in the position
she will show her tummy and she gets lots of affection while in the position
to be perfectly honest she seems to like it

however last night she started up again which i expected since it will take time

i had a bit of food in bed and she kept getting in my face i kept pushing her away and she totally ignored me and kept coming back in all honesty its times like this when we are actually struggling that i feel that it could escalate to her getting snappy with me
i dont feel that when i take her in hand immediately and put her on the floor
today she started humping me again
she does it facing me and looking right at me after 4 or 5 times
i put her down again, when she got up she started again
so i put her down again after that she was fine
when i sit in my office chair she will put her paws on my lap but its done in such a way that it feels like she is gripping me with them the way she does when jumps up on me and starts humping
she will put her paws on my office chair the same way and look at me like shes claiming it as well
it just really does not feel like excitement when she does this

sophia does it from the front and always looks right up into my face while doing it, almost feels like she is defying me to do something about it

if im not going to put her down on the floor when she does this what is it that i should do?
pushing her off doesnt do a thing

i have taken her to the dog park several times weather isnt great so havent taken her very often
both times she has been fearful, second time was better so am hopeful that it will improve as she gains confidence and trust and eventually start to play with the other dogs

she does have a twist toy that is like a top that spins and rolls you can fill it with treats and she bats it around and chases it like a cat with a mouse and the treats come out while she plays with it.

so again thanks for all the advice

[listeme]

What about crating her for times like when you are eating in bed?

To tell you the truth, I can't IMAGINE that Sophia would be ready for that kind of temptation at this point. I would be keeping her from making mistakes (using crate, gate) instead of attempting such a thing. Simon's been with me most of his young life (in other words, has had a pretty stable upbringing) and is just barely sane about plates in laps at this point. Barely!

Consider pulling her freedom way back so that she doesn't have access to as many opportunities to make mistakes. The crate is a great tool for this. If she has trouble with the crate, there are methods for helping her get over that.

[sharronhurlbut]

I would use a squirt bottle with the humping and food issues, if you decide not to crate her.
Myself, I would give her lots of exercise, make the house a calm place, by giving her a chew toy in the crate, when you can't watch her…and just expect her to start to settle in. She should watch your current dog, to get an idea of what is expected..at least, my new dogs to the house do....

[nobarkus]

What brand of food are you feeding her? Is it just dry? Her diet can play a big role in her behavior. When was the last time she had a check up at the vet with a full blood panel done to see whats going? Her thyroid should be checked too.

[Patty]

I agree with nobarkus that diet can play a big role in this - please make sure that if you're feeding a complete feed that it doesn't include corn or certain colourings.

I still think that all these problems are as a result of her earlier treatment. If she is staring you in the face while performing any of these actions including humping it seems that she is certainly testing your authority. If you feel that the advice you have taken (I don't agree with Cesar's methods when dealing with a Basenji, either) is working just be consistent and patient - this 'blip' is probably just another challenge she is giving you.

If you could find out more about her earlier life it would help you to get the measure of her.

[westcoastflea1]

actually sophia has handled the temptations rather well once i make it very clear to her that my food is my food
once the message sinks in that im not going to let her poke her head in plate she will give up turn her back to the food and curl up on my lap while i eat in peace

last night my roommate was eating on the couch she went over put her paws up on the arm of the couch and all i had to do was make a noise, point at her and down she went it was amazing

so she is capable of self control, it seems to be whether she wants to exhibit that self control at certain times, and the times when she doesnt back off so easily, might be because my energy level is down and she senses it.

i mean last night i was in bed eating a little biscuit, all of 3 bites, i was tired and cranky and i think she picked up on that fact and tried to push things a little more than she usually does.

i just dont think its good to go back and forth and back and forth when she is doing something she shouldnt do, i feel like that will lead to escalation more then ending something quickly and firmly

its funny about crating people say the dogs love it once used to it but sophia is definitely used to it and hates it.

she has not once entered it voluntarily since she came here
and when she is put in it she whines, cries, scratches at the floor then howls once ive left the house, she howls as long as im gone

im starting to work on the crate as well
ive been putting her in with the door open having her sit then feeding her treats while she stays calm and in the sit position while in the crate
i close the door give her more treats then let her out
ill start increasing the time gradually and hope that that will help

i cant imagine that she howled in her last home in the crate so unlike sebastian who it turns out howled at his owners home whenever they left for the 9 years that they had him she should be easier to deal with (i hope)

unfortunately sophia is the only dog here, with roommates one dog is all i can really ask them to put up with

she is eating evolve dog food my feeling is that sophia is strong willed, i know her last owner did mention that sophia knew the owner was the alpha in the household
sophia is of course very curious about everything which is understandable, and i think she is pretty normal really for a 4 year old that hasnt been exposed to a lot of things most 4 years olds are exposed to
she is not reliably housetrained so i have to keep an eye on her at all times which doesnt help with getting her to start roaming the house and spending time feeling comfortable in the other rooms without me
she was really annoying today very much tested my patience
since i cant trust her not to pee in the house and my roommate was home all day i have had her in my office with the door closed

if she couldnt get in my lap then she was bound and determined to cause problems
not sure why if she is in my lap she will sleep forever but cant get in her bed right next to me and do the same thing nope…. she'll sit at my feet and stare at me forever til i let her in my lap

of course this isnt every day quite often she does get in her bed but today was not one of those days:)
its raining and cold so the walk was short one today , plus im in area where there is alot of heavy machinery and loud noises scare her so once she heard something she wanted to get back home pronto
all in all i think she is a grand little dog and will make someone a wonderful companion

[westcoastflea1]

sophias former owner developed severe health issues

so sophia was able to go in the yard with the other bs but my understanding is that the time in the house was mostly in a crate

no walks because of the owners health issues so i would assume mostly back yard and crate was her world for 4 years

her dog food is really good you could probably look up evolve on the web she is eating the lamb evolve the only grain in it is rice

when we discovered that sebastian had neck/ disc issues the people at brat did alot of research trying to find a grain free food for sebastian that was affordable i was already feeding evolve and after doing research brat felt the evolve was the best for him
so sophia is eating it as well
brat is such a great organization, so helpful and responsive, they really go all out to help the basenjis they rescue

[DebraDownSouth]

@westcoastflea1:

opinion on feeding?
cesar
while everyone may not agree with all of cesars methods i believe that the principles behind them are sound

I have been training dogs for about 30 yrs. I have done rehab with dogs with fairly serious aggression issues. But don't believe me or others here… read up on experts. That you think his "principles" are sound indicates you may not quite understand what his principles are.

And now I am done. Connecting my telling you to lead and train to Millan's methods bothers me. I don't want anything else I say to you to get misunderstood as supporting or resulting in punitive training. I wasn't really blunt before, I was simply trying to keep my post short and simple. Yes, I feel that strong about Millan's methods.

http://vet.osu.edu/education/quotes-experts
Ohio State Vet site:

Quotes from Experts

World-renowned dog trainers, behaviorists and veterinarians had all warned National Geographic that Millan's methods had the potential for disaster. Below are quotes from noted experts:

• "Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years."
  o Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
  o Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine
• "Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like 'whispering' for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable."
  o Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA-Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers
• "A number of qualified professionals have voiced concern for the welfare of pet dogs that experience the strong corrections administered by Mr. Millan. My concerns are based on his inappropriateness, inaccurate statements, and complete fabrications of explanations for dog behavior. His ideas, especially those about "dominance", are completely disconnected from the sciences of ethology and animal learning, which are our best hope for understanding and training our dogs and meeting their behavioral needs. Many of the techniques he encourages the public to try are dangerous, and not good for dogs or our relationships with them ."
  o Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist
  o Co-owner of Animal Behavior Associates, Inc., Littleton, CO
• "Cesar Millan employs outdated methods that are dangerous and inhumane. Using a choke chain and treadmill to treat fear of strangers and dogs is completely inappropriate. Hopefully the National Geographic Channel will listen to the scientific community and discontinue production of The Dog Whisperer."
  o Vyolet Michaels, CTC (Certified Dog Trainer and Behavior Counselor)
  o Owner of Urban Dawgs, LLC of Red Bank, NJ
• "On his TV show, the main method Millan uses for aggression is aversives (leash jerks, kicks, snaps of the hand against the neck, and restraint, among others) applied non contingently. The aversives are non contingent because they are so frequent that they're not connected to any particular behavior on the part of the dog?the dog gets popped pretty much constantly. This results in a state called learned helplessness, which means the animal hunkers down and tries to do as little as possible. This is what Millan calls "calm submission." It's exactly the same thing you see in a rat in a Skinner box that is subjected to intermittent shocks it can do nothing to avoid. This can happen quite fast, by the way, shall we say in ten minutes? The dangers to the dog are obvious, ranging from chronic stress to exacerbating the aggression, i.e., some dogs fight back when attacked. This latter is the simplest reason that aversives are a bad idea in treating aggression. Even used technically correctly as positive punishment for specific behaviors like growling and snarling, aversives do nothing to change the underlying fear or hostility, so the best you can hope for, in the words of famed vet and behaviorist, Ian Dunbar, is "removing the ticker from the time bomb." Thus such methods substantially increase the risk to humans of getting bitten."
  o Janis Bradley, Instructor at The San Franciso SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
  o Author of the book, "Dogs Bite"
• Excerpt of letter from Lisa Laney, Dip. DTBC, CPDT, CBC to National Geographic before airing "The Dog Whisperer":
  o "The intended program depicts aversive and abusive training methods - treatment for some serious anxiety and fear based issues - being administered by an individual with no formal education whatsoever in canine behavioral sciences. The "results" that are shown are more than likely not long lasting changes, but the result of learned helplessness, or fatigue, neither of which impact behavior to any significant long term degree - at least not in a good way. For those of us who are pioneering the effort to end the ignorance that drives the cruel treatment administered upon our canine companions, it is disappointing to see that this programming will reach the masses - especially on the NG Channel. The ignorance that this program perpetuates will give equally ignorant people the green light to subject their dogs to abuse. In turn these dogs will react even more defensively, will bite more people - and end up dead."
• "I have serious concerns because his methods are often intimidating rather than motivating. On TV, the dogs do comply but often they're being forced to - you can tell by their body language: tail down, mouth closed, ears back, eyes dilated… I argue that motivating leadership is far more effective than leading through intimidation."
  o Steve Dale is the author of the twice weekly syndicated newspaper column "My Pet World" (Tribune Media Services).
  o He's also the host of syndicated radio programs Steve Dale's Pet World, The Pet Minute with Steve Dale; and Pet Central, at WGN Radio, Chicago.
  o Steve is a contributing editor at USA Weekend, special correspondent/columnist Dog World and editor-in-chief of PawPrints (a newsletter for veterinarians).
  o His books include "American Zoos" and "DogGone Chicago."
  o Steve has appeared on The Oprah Winfrey Show; National Geographic Explorer; Pets Part of the Family on PBS; several Animal Planet Shows; Fox News Channel, and Balance TV (Canada). He was a regular on WGN-TV Chicago.
  o Touted as reaching more pet owners than any other pet journalist, Steve is a frequent guest expert on radio shows all over America and Canada; he has been quoted in dozens of newspaper and magazine stories, including the Los Angeles Times, USA Today, and Redbook.
  o He is certified as a Behavior Consultant by the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants, and the recipient of many awards including the prestigious AVMA Humane Award.

[Patty M]

Wow, Debbie, I can understand your passion about non-Cesar techniques after reading your research. I often say that I've never seen a basenji on his show, lol. Have you ever watched Victoria…. I don't remember her show name (It's me or the dog?), but she's from England and uses other tactics that aren't so dominant.

One of the good things on this forum is that everyone can share their experiences and opinions, and others can benefit. If someone has a compelling argument for me, I'll listen.

Back to Sophia, I'm glad that you have her with you, Westflea. I know from your dealing with Sebastian that your heart is full of goodness and compassion and that you are taking good care of her. The poor girl has never been taught to socialize with people, so her confusion is understandable, and she really needs your love and patience now.

Keep us posted! (Insert hug and pictures of Sophia here please. :))

[westcoastflea1]

the message or principles that I personally get from cesar are to use calm assertive energy and to realize that it is alright to set boundaries for your dog without feeling guilty, that it is alright to have expectations of how your dog should behave and expect that those expectations will be met once the dog learns what they are
and doing this does not mean using harsh and punitive measures

i fail to see how my ability to glean these bits of positive information from what cesar milan has to say somehow equals my not understanding his principles?

the ability to take what is good and leave the rest does not equal lack of understanding or ignorance

i found debdownsouths no nonsense advice made me think of cesars rules boundaries and limitations and projecting positive energy
her advice made realize it was alright to let sophia know that there are rules in this house and that im the one who makes them not sophia,

which is why i thanked her for the lightbulb moment

if my thanks was offensive in some way i certainly do apologize

BUT…i certainly never in any way stated that anyone here on this forum was advocating cesar milan methods, i already know better then that

[DebraDownSouth]

Okay that explains it much better. And if you only take the positive, then good. Sorry if I misunderstood.

[Patty]

Having studied methods of very many animal behaviourists, trainers etc and all rather sceptically in relation to Basenjis, I agree that many of their methods aren't ultimately good for the breed and in some cases exceptionally bad. Like Westcoastflea I feel that one can take some methods that do work and are Basenji tolerant from quite a few of the various methods. From experience we can gradually glean what is best for our individual dogs. This is where this forum is invaluable, as we can learn from others' experiences as well as our own.

[westcoastflea1]

couldnt have said it better myself have included a couple of not great pics as requested

[DebraDownSouth]

@Patty:

Having studied methods of very many animal behaviourists, trainers etc …From experience we can gradually glean what is best for our individual dogs. This is where this forum is invaluable, as we can learn from others' experiences as well as our own.

Therein lies the problem though, Patty. When people post who lack fairly basic training knowledge and pick up things like Koehler and Millan, they don't have a CLUE what is good. Millan, like Koehler before, have major robot followers doing damage to their dogs that they do not have the ability to undo. So why not seek out the positive trainers to start with. It works for all breeds, especially basenjis