Looks like you said that difference in your second post, so we are on the same page.
Electronic Collar Training
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Everyone has the thing that they are comfortable with.. as Andrea says… anything that emits shocks is and always will be punishment based... and for me I would never use an underground fence... it doesn't keep unwanted "guests, critter or human" out of the yard... only works on the one wearing the collar... and I have seen many dogs run right though the shock.. some will stop and I am glad yours does... me, I would never trust them....
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This is a good thread. We have thought about getting one for the same reason–to keep him from running off. the problem was he would run out the door and tear away. I think he would know the collar wasn't on and it would be mute. I also had remembered someone years ago saying it would not stop shocking for whatever reason and the dog having issues.
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I agree it is a consequence, but not punishment b/c he has learned the consequence. IMO, the word punishment has a negative connotation, not the same as the word consequence. However, we teach our children and fur kids that for every good or bad action, there is a consequence - good or bad.
For my dogs own safety and enjoyment to run freely and fast as they can on my 1/2 acre lot, the underground fence is a solution. Otherwise, they'd be forever restricted on a leash. I am very happy for all who have a nice tall secure fence and don't have to depend on electrical fencing. It would be my preference.
FYI - With the underground fencing, the electrical frequency is calibrated with distance. If dog doesn't move away from the line, there is shock - Duhhh? I wouldn't know about the shock collar for training purposes. -
Again, that is punishment… you can wrap it up in any name you want, consequence or whatever, getting a shock is not nice, it is punishment... and it is the same as consequence with that result... As you stated yourself, frequency is calibrated... too close, bigger shock... sorry but that is punishment to me....
Like I said I am glad your fence works for you, again I would never have one, nor would I recommend one... same as the shock collar...
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This is a good thread. We have thought about getting one for the same reason–to keep him from running off. the problem was he would run out the door and tear away. I think he would know the collar wasn't on and it would be mute. I also had remembered someone years ago saying it would not stop shocking for whatever reason and the dog having issues.
You are much better off using positive training methods. It would be well worth the money spend to hire a trainer to help…. and obviously you have seen the negative side of trying to use a shock collar...
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Again, that is punishment… you can wrap it up in any name you want, consequence or whatever, getting a shock is not nice, it is punishment... and it is the same as consequence with that result... As you stated yourself, frequency is calibrated... too close, bigger shock… sorry but that is punishment to me….
Like I said I am glad your fence works for you, again I would never have one, nor would I recommend one... same as the shock collar...
No - not bigger shock, just shock associated with whatever degree (1 - 10) is designed by owner on collar.
I agree, getting a shock is not nice - neither is alot of other things in life lessons. Thankfully, we can all express opinions here.
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No - not bigger shock, just shock associated with whatever degree (1 - 10) is designed by owner on collar.
I agree, getting a shock is not nice - neither is alot of other things in life lessons. Thankfully, we can all express opinions here.
Exactly…. as with all things we will have to agree to disagree!
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I agree it is a consequence, but not punishment b/c he has learned the consequence. IMO, the word punishment has a negative connotation, not the same as the word consequence. However, we teach our children and fur kids that for every good or bad action, there is a consequence - good or bad.
For my dogs own safety and enjoyment to run freely and fast as they can on my 1/2 acre lot, the underground fence is a solution. Otherwise, they'd be forever restricted on a leash. I am very happy for all who have a nice tall secure fence and don't have to depend on electrical fencing. It would be my preference.
FYI - With the underground fencing, the electrical frequency is calibrated with distance. If dog doesn't move away from the line, there is shock - Duhhh? I wouldn't know about the shock collar for training purposes.
I just want to reiterate…I am NOT against underground fencing. I have lots of clients that use it successfully, and are very happy with it. I most likely wouldn't use it with my dogs, unless in conjunction with an existing fence.. but not because I think it doesn't work, or is cruel. I think it is the only real option for a lot of people. Remote shock collars and shock fences are very different things in the way that they operate. There is no room for human or operator error with a fence…dog gets too close..zap. No subjectivity, no flexibiltiy, no decision being made by the fence about how close is too close...the consequence is exactly the same every time.
Anyhow...we are just arguing semantics. In learning theory anything that you add to a learning situation which decreases the likelyhood of the behavior occuring again IS called a punishment. So when the dog ignores the beep, and shock is added, and the behavior of ignore the beep decreases....voila, punishment, consequence, whatever.
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Every dog is individual and the fencing method may work for one but not the other. As Pat says-I would never trust mine. If focused enough they will run right through the fencing. As for the shock collar-some emit a beep, some don't and some you can shut it off. It will work with some dogs but not with all. Some dogs will turn aggressive if the collar is used without regard for the dog. You have to be right on time with the right strength of shock. Many people have a problem being on time and shock the poor thing out of turn. Then the poor dog becomes confused. I wouldn't use the collar on most dogs without trying other methods first.
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I rave read all of the post on the shock collars and to be quite honest I am confused! My basenji Solomon loves to escape thru the garage door and back fence gate any time he has a chance! I really try to watch him very closely but once he is free he does not respond to voice comands at all. He we go untill he finds another dog are something that intrest him. This is very scary because I don't think he has any street smarts at all! I have borrowed a shock collar to try, but I plan to use it only as a training device to see if I can stop this behavior, I really am conerned about its effects but I would be be so very upset if any thing ever happened to him while he was out on one of his adventures. I think you have to use the training device while he is thinking about his next move, in other words before he goes though the door, not after he has already escaped. I would like to hear opinions on there use!
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Using invisible fencing is one matter…shocking your dog as he runs thru an open door is quite another. For the shock collar to have any value at all, you need to give him a command like "stop", or "come" or SOMETHING that you have already taught him (something he really knows) and then if he doesn't do it, then you can use the shock as a correction.
Sounds like a big mess in the making to me...because if you slap the collar on him, figure he knows what he isn't supposed to do, then he bolts for the door, and you shock him...do you think he is then going to come running back to you? Most likely he will be really scared, and keep running. Shock collars are seriously dangerous in the hands of amatuer trainers.
I would suggest you invest time and money in a good trainer (I prefer positive reinforcement trainers, as opposed to punishment trainers), and train him not to bolt thru open doors...and then work really hard on modifying your garage and back gate so it is difficult for him to get thru them, in case he decides to try.
Remote shock collars (not Ins.Fen) are a quick fix "solution" that has the ability to scare and confuse your dog, and make your situation much worse. IMO they should ONLY be used by very experience trainers, and only in certain types of training, and only with certain dogs. IME most basenjis do not do well with these types of collars.
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I totally agree with Quercus. When Dash escaped this past week, he found a weakness in our chain-link fence, I grab a piece of cheese and just calmly call him. When he comes to me, I tell how good he is and pick him up. It has worked the past 2 times. He has no street smarts at all either. He just wants to run. The first rule we have is to never chase him. It is hard since he seems to go pretty far but I noticed he looks back and if he sees we aren't chasing he turns around. We just keep an eye on him. I want him to know coming to me is a positive thing. I understand what you are saying though. Dash tries to find a dog or something to play with. I chaulk it up to he needs more exercise.
I think the shock collar would back-fire. He is going to run to get away from the shock. Not neccesarily where you want him to go though.
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another suggestion is if he is looking back - to run in a different direction - many times they will come to chase cause they don't want to miss anything.
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Dmcarty-soooo true..this has worked for me with C3PO when he has not been close eough to smell the lure :eek: and has wound up chasing me!
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When we first got Jack we had to buy a shock collar that goes off when they bark (yodel) because he would cry ALL night long and the WHOLE time he was outside to go potty…and we live in military housing. What the collar actually did was vibrate, lol i tried it on myself before we bought it. it gives a warning beep first and then if the noise continues it vibrates a little harder each time...IT WORKED WONDERS!! after just one day, we switched the collar to JUST warning beeps and he responded GREAT!! Now when we leave him or put him outside he is calm and quite. AND is STILL vocal when it is appropriate!! SO its just my opinion of course, but the vibrating collar ("shock collar") was awesome!!
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Many, many years ago, when my boyfriend at the time and I got our first basenji, I suggested to BF that we try a shock collar to keep him from escaping when I forgot to close the garage door or backyard gate. BF promptly agreed wholeheartedly–thought it was a fantastic idea--but he suggested that I wear the collar so that I would get shocked anytime I left open a door or gate....hahahahaha. Needless to say, we never did get a shock collar.....and I am very, very dependable now about closing doors and gates:)
