@KhaiPan Pam and I are both stubborn opinionated people and without mutual respect, we'd be in constant battle. Instead, I love her. I watch her utter devotion to the dogs, to doing things right, to helping anyone who needs help. She isn't stuck in any idea... given proof and research, she'll reconsider. She is calming. 🙂 Knowing you have someone personally in your corner navigating this helps a lot. Glad you contacted her.
My poor boy . . .
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I guess I should figure someone would get on here to dissect everything I said. I will straighten you out, since you did say "Let me see if I get this right". Absolutely wrong in many instances.
First of all I am not bad mouthing BRAT, but I do feel we were not explained very well and our only experience with BRAT had been the boy SKEETER we picked up nine years ago. We got all his papers and I assumed that was the norm. Sorry, if I have never dealt with a Basenji with no papers. And when we picked him up we got a crate and an envelope with the papers. We were not about to tell someone driving cross country to please wait while we inspect his papers. Off we went and while driving back we saw that all there was were a few animal hospital receipts. I then emailed the coordinator and asked questions. I even got an email from Liz Newton explaining how sometimes they have no information. Now that was the end of this issue and we learned how it is and just decided to make a good home for MAX. One other thing, we did contact Linda, the breeder we got Heidi from and she said she did have a few dogs and instead of us going for that we decided to use Brat, because they have many dogs to place and we were very happy how it had worked in the past.
When we started having problems with MAX getting along with HEIDI, we did not rush to the phone too bother Brat. We knew he was nine years old and we were told he had been fostered for a long time. Not sure how you feel I am blaming Brat for the issues we are having now. And we certainly did not let it escalate to anything. We are trying our best to have these two animals get along. We walk them together we try many ways to get them familiar with each other. And I will admit, HEIDI does allot of low level growling because she is jealous of the way MAX just pushes his way around. He must have been fed from the table in the past 'cause he is constantly pushing his way under our kitchen table looking for scraps, that are never there. But, if she growls enough he starts growling back and then the fight starts. As I said we must be with them if they are together or we keep MAX in one part of the house and Heidi in another.
And your comment on his going in the backyard, yes we were told he loves the outdoors, but the fact is we have to lead him outside ourselves or he just sits on the couch. HEIDI loves to be outside lying around on our deck in the sun, but MAX could care less. Again, he only goes out even for potty, if we take him and he stay for only a minute. We do have a very large backyard and we put their toys out there to try and get them to play outside. Plus, we do not close the door to force them to stay out, that would be mean.
We treat these two dogs with love and affection. They are almost never crated. We try to always keep someone at home, so they don't have to be crated. The only reason we don't contact the coordinator is because MAX has been bounced around allot, so that is why I have explained this in the Forum. I won't even type here my feelings to your remark about our boy "Skeeter" that died last year. We tried everything and he spent many of his last few days at the Vet, just hoping something could be done. And when the Vet would close each day we took him to an all-night Animal Hospital and then back to the Vet in the morning. I did suggest some ideas in our desperation to make his life easier, but in the end we lost. My wife Dana cries still every time we think about him.
Oh one other thing . . . why is it Brat does not like to place a younger Basenji with an older Basenji. That did happen to us, but we didn't fight it, just wondered why?
Jerry & Dana in KC
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1. You straightened me out on nothing… denied words you actually posted (ie claiming you didn't bad mouth brat? You might need to reread what you wrote. Indicating they DUMPED a dog on you, withheld information, gave you a dog not like you expected... forget it.) and doesn't change my view of your post at all.
The continued whine about papers floors me. WTHeck do they matter? INFORMATION about a dog before you get it, big issue. Once you took the dog, exactly what papers did you expect? ALL information about the dog they gave you BEFORE you got it. If you thought they were withholding info, why on earth would you agree to take the dog til you got all the info. In reality, you got all the info. So now you devote half your posts to complaining about information that doesn't exist not being given to you. And it doesn't even make any sense. YOU ALREADY TOOK THE DOG. Why would you expect there to be information on papers you didn't already know?
As for "run to brat"... No you waited til many fights, blood drawn, then came here to blame them for dumping him on you, duping you etc. Getting help FAST from BRAT instead of coming here making accusations was the responsible thing to do. Or simply telling BRAT the dog isn't working out, come get him. Problem solved.
As for older with young, that is a coordinator decision, but my GUESS is that young dogs need young dogs to play with. Many basenji people get 2 pups at a time, many won't place a dog in a home without a similar aged PLAY MATE. I am certain you could have found a younger dog if you had been patient or insisted. Or gone to a byb or puppymill. Your decision to adopt an older dog from BRAT is commendable. But I certainly look to an ACTIVE home before placing a younger dog of any breed that needs a lot of exercise or at least has a young companion dog to give them exercise. A tired dog is a good dog. And really, I am betting if you went outside WITH THE DOG it would love to be out and play.
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Oh dear, judgmental much?
From my point of view, there was some serious miscommunication at the start of all this. Unfortunate for all involved, but at this point irrelevant, as a solution that works for everyone is now paramount. (and hopefully attainable). I concur that contacting BRAT and trying to work something out is the best approach. Fingers crossed you come to a good solution for both humans and Basenjis.
If the judgmental part is my response to putting a sick blind dog outside to live, yeah I am that kind of judgmental.
If it is about the bash on brat, nope. There was NO miscommunication. Person got the info they HAD on the dog. Person took the dog, then whines they can't – what invent things they don't know?. Person blames BRAT because a dog doesn't want to stay outside alone and accuses BRAT of dumping the dog on them and misleading them. You tell me, what was miscommunicated? The person knew what BRAT knew, made a decision to get the dog, then blamed them for not telling them more than they knew. The only communication problem is someone blasting BRAT and the coordinator without giving them ever the courtesy of contacting for help or assistance. The bigger problem is instead of asking for help for the dogs, they spent 90 percent of the post blaming BRAT and whining about losing their adoption fee without ever CONTACTING BRAT.
In a nutshell, if someone posted they had issues with their dogs, clearly stated situations, really wanted HELP instead of bad mouth the rescue, I'd make suggestions. But if it has reached the blood drawing stage, they most likely will have to simply manage these dogs away from each other and are going to resent the dog for those imaginary duping behaviors of BRAT. The dog will definitely fare better in another home that doesn't feel duped, dumped on and is willing to ask for help before it is a crisis.
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Debra! I didn't read his post the way you did at all. Not everybody knows everything that you know about rescue, how it works, etc…I think he just wants some advice about how to move forward. Easy girl....
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The only communication problem is someone blasting BRAT and the coordinator without giving them ever the courtesy of contacting for help or assistance. The bigger problem is instead of asking for help for the dogs, they spent 90 percent of the post blaming BRAT and whining about losing their adoption fee without ever CONTACTING BRAT.
In a nutshell, if someone posted they had issues with their dogs, clearly stated situations, really wanted HELP instead of bad mouth the rescue, I'd make suggestions. But if it has reached the blood drawing stage, they most likely will have to simply manage these dogs away from each other and are going to resent the dog for those imaginary duping behaviors of BRAT. The dog will definitely fare better in another home that doesn't feel duped, dumped on and is willing to ask for help before it is a crisis.
What I got from reading the post was that initially they had contacted BRAT for more information and were told there was none. Not what they were expecting (having previously adopted a BRAT dog), but there you are. The information they did have appeared to them to be misleading (the dog loves to be outdoors vs observing that he didn't like to be outdoors) My impression is that they tried to work things out with these dogs, but the situation is in fact getting worse instead of better. Should they have gotten back in touch with BRAT sooner? Perhaps, but they apparently wanted to give it some time to see if they could make things work. BTW, does BRAT not do follow up with its placements? If not, that surprises me.
In any case, the best outcome for the dogs will come from cooperation, not accusation. Hopefully there is a solution that will work well for all, but I don't think arguing about who should or would or could have done whatever whenever is particularly useful at this point. My apologies if I have added fuel to the fire, but how about trying to find a solution that will work for everyone?
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Often, doing rescue, folks wait until its "panic" mode and then contact rescue. Its so much more helpful to stop behaviors that cause issues early. So, this wasn't done.
What is decided between BRAT and these ownrs will be best for all. I read this post and felt it was BRAT bashing. Rescue work is hard, takes a lot of time and mostly is self rewarding. When it isn't and it happens to be a dog I have placed, I beat myself up a lot. We do rescue because we want to help dogs and help make human families happier. This isn't happening in this case. Working toward the peace for the family and the dogs should be
the issue now. -
You didn't add fuel, I was obviously pretty loaded all on my own to see brat jumped for no reason, a dog in a bad situation that is probably too late to fix in that home, and brat blamed. I work with BRAT, I have a BRAT rescue. I have my own complaints about BRAT and I have said them to them before I post in public. I know many BRAT coordinators and rescue/fosters. Not one of them wouldn't jump hoops to help an adopter. Not one time have I ever heard brat LIED or mislead someone. And that this dog loved to be outside in a foster home probably related to having other dogs or people outside with it– not just going outside alone. But I also loaded because instead of posting we have a dog and this is the problem, it was all geared at how brat failed, mislead, let down. No PERSONAL responsibility for taking a dog if they weren't satisfied with the information available upfront, no personal responsibility for not contacting BRAT, a trainer or even this forum before it reached this point--- and even their commitment to the dog paired with concerns about losing their adoption fee. Surely you can see you didn't need to add anything-- I was there.
Andrea, glad you read it differently. So please help the person because honest, I actually gave my best advice-- contact BRAT and let them find the dog another home.
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I agree, Debra, this is not a good match, and he should be returned to BRAT so that a better match could be made.
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This is the one thing that BRAT could do better, realize that not all comments about them that aren't praise are not bashing either. I didn't read this person's post as bashing BRAT. They seemed confused about why things were done the way they were and frustrated that they didn't always gets answers when they sought clarification. Criticism is not bashing but hopefully can be used to improve the process and make adoption experiences more positive for everyone.
I do think that there was communication glitch here, both ways. The poster took for granted that they would get more detailed information when they picked up the dog but it also seems that BRAT didn't get enough information on the adoptive home's expectation to make a good match.
I also think that the poster really does want what is best for both dogs and wants to help them. If you are really committed to keeping MAX then I think the earlier suggestion that it time to involve a behaviorist is the best advice. They will give you a fresh perspective on your situation and an honest evaluation of if this can be made to work for both dogs and for the household as a whole.
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My wife and I had conversations on the phone with Liz Newton tonight. We came to some conclusions and decisions, but I don't want to and will never again want to get into it here.
I came here looking for advise, but ended up with mostly criticism.
Our primary concern is the well being of this B' boy. So what happens in the future for MAX will be a private matter from now on . . . goodbye
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Jerry and Dana…wish you wouldn't leave.... and I hope that everything works out for the best.
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Dealing with BRAT directly is the right thing in this case. I wish the dog and this family well.
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Jerry and Dana…wish you wouldn't leave.... and I hope that everything works out for the best.
+1
I hope your family and Max can find a peaceful happy life in the future. Be it together or separately. Sometimes dogs come into our lives to stay, sometimes we are just there to help them to their future homes.I also didn't read these posts as BRAT-bashing.
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This is the one thing that BRAT could do better, realize that not all comments about them that aren't praise are not bashing either. I didn't read this person's post as bashing BRAT. They seemed confused about why things were done the way they were and frustrated that they didn't always gets answers when they sought clarification. Criticism is not bashing but hopefully can be used to improve the process and make adoption experiences more positive for everyone.
I do think that there was communication glitch here, both ways. The poster took for granted that they would get more detailed information when they picked up the dog but it also seems that BRAT didn't get enough information on the adoptive home's expectation to make a good match.
1. I am not Brat. And I'd have been upset over the post if it had be any breed, any rescue.
2. Please explain to me how accusing a rescue of dumping a dog on you and lying isn't bashing, especially when you didn't bother to contact them.
3. Explain to me how it isn't bashing the rescue when the person blames BRAT for not HAVING more info when they told him what they knew, he adopted the dog, picked it up and THEN thought they should have more info? If he wasn't satisfied with the amt of info, it was HIS FAULT ONLY for accepting the dog. End of story. They can't invent more than they knew.
4. Please tell me how you surmised they didn't get enough info? Just because the 2 dogs didn't work out and they waited until this stage to get ANY type of help doesn't mean it was BRATs fault.I am shaking my head at people saying they don't read it as a bash. Do me a favor, put YOUR KENNEL NAME or you in the place of all the Brat words and tell me again, honest, if you would think you weren't being bashed. What is Steven Colbert's word–- truthiness? Apply it. In fact, lol, why don't I go around the internet and post that first post with each of your names who say it wasn't bashing BRAT and see if you still think that and are that charitable to the OP. How about it? Any takers?
TO the OP, glad you contacted Liz, glad you have decided to do whatever for the dog. I sincerely hope you find a dog that fits your needs and that can get along with your dog. I truly do not believe every dog is right for every home and while this MIGHT have been fixable if you got help immediately, the only thing that matters is you do what is best for both of the dogs' safety.
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Sometimes a rescue group does not know much about a dog they have in their rescue. I fostered a female for BRAT who came from a shelter as a stray. I picked her up from the shelter and the only info I obtained was vaccine records. She did have a litter of pups in a dog house and the shelter adopted out the pups. I had to estimate her age and the only info I could give BRAT was what her behavior was at my house. I found out she could climb a four ft. chain link fence! Her behavior at my house might be different from her behavior at another foster or adopter.
Jennifer
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It's hard to know how each dog will do in a different home. We doing rescue, try to get the info to the adopters. There are not hard and fast behaviors, IMO..often it depends on the house and the way the folks react to the dog.
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It is true that rescue does not always get much information and with foster space limited there is a push to get dogs out of foster into permanent homes. This is a fact of life in rescue but for some people even though they are looking for a rescue they are not comfortable with a dog with that many unknowns.
I know of several people who have had bad experiences with BRAT where BRAT was in a bind a needed a home quickly and because of that made some errors that ended up leaving a bad taste about BRAT. I really think that BRAT selectively read what this couple said they wanted in a dog when making this placement and that set up a bad sequence of events because there was a mismatch in expectation and reality. In all honesty, if you thought someone ignores what you say when you talk to them, how likely are you to then pick up the phone and call them?
Mistakes were made on both sides but the poster was not the bad guy here, neither was BRAT. There was just no meeting of the minds when it came to what the perfect match for this household would look like.
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Mistakes were made on both sides but the poster was not the bad guy here, neither was BRAT. There was just no meeting of the minds when it came to what the perfect match for this household would look like.
lvoss, I think you post pretty well sums up how I read the whole thing. I think our OP assumed that things would go as they had for our OP's first dealings with BRAT. Unfortunately everything just sort of fell apart. Hopefully there is a peaceful solution for everyone (dogs and humans) as we move forward.
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The only EXPECTATION the OP posted was a dog that liked to be outside. Again, if the dog liked to be outside PLAYING with another dog or people, and in THIS home no one goes out with him nor dog playmates, that is NOT an issue of BRAT not listening or meeting his expectations. You can bet your last dollar if this family said "Oh we want a dog that will just go hang outside by itself all day and not bother us" they wouldn't have gotten a dog.
As for the dogs, THIS couple allowed issues that could probably have been fixed (like simply BANNING both dogs from kitchen or eating area!!!) to escalate. Again, not an issue of BRAT not listening or miscommunication.
BRAT did not say "Hey, we withheld information and we'll send it with the dog." The OP seemed to assume that (though why would they not have asked for all info BEFORE accepting the dog, and simply REFUSE the dog if there wasn't enough info available?)– not a BRAT communication issue.
I don't doubt that some errors have ever been made by BRAT, or any rescue or any breeder for that matter! But I suggest unless you can PROVE the claims, you might want to consider that people lie, people don't take responsibility for their own actions, and people often blame the breeder or rescue when things don't go as they want. I know many people who badmouth both breeders and rescues and when light is shined on the actual facts, it falls apart pretty damned fast. Sadly, BRAT cannot reveal info, so they have to put up with people making up stuff. Too bad rescues cannot put a "you make untrue comments on public boards and we get to respond with our side and your actual application to show you lied you arse off about what you would do with the dog."
I know of several people who have had bad experiences with BRAT where BRAT was in a bind a needed a home quickly and because of that made some errors that ended up leaving a bad taste about BRAT.
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The only people who truly know what went down in this case is the people directly involved. Speculation on anyone else's part as to what mistakes were made is just that, speculation. The OP came to this forum to pose a problem and look for advice. In describing the situation the OP made a couple of comments that reflected how in their opinion this placement was poorly conducted in the first place, and described some frustration at the process, given that they had had a previous dog from BRAT that had arrived with more information and had worked out well. Because of the situation they found themselves in (picking up a dog from a volunteer transporting it, and finding little documentation with the dog), they accepted an animal that perhaps they would not have welcomed on sober second thought. It is unfortunate for all concerned, but playing the blame game isn't improving anything, IMHO.
As far as mistakes that were made in socializing these two dogs together…...well, I wasn't there, so I wouldn't care to speculate on whether it was done "correctly" or if they are just dealing with a personality conflict that just wasn't going to be resolvable. I am sure from their point of view it isn't pleasant to have tried hard and then be blasted for not getting it right.
For what it's worth, if I was looking to adopt a dog, I would not have been put off contacting BRAT by the OP's posts, but some of the responses could certainly make me think twice about getting involved with the organization!
