@danninyx - I believe that Katie Campbell email you and I that she will respond after she returns from shows this weekend. I believe that she will be able to help in some form...
Why do breeders mix Basenjis with other breeds?
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The reason distinct breeds were developed in the first place was because people wanted predictable traits. Jason and Miranda are correct when they say that when you mix two breeds you have no way of telling what mix of traits you are going to get.
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And about the 'freak of nature' that Vickilb mentioned.. I saw a Bulldog today that died because.. well.. because he was a Bulldog: His lack of nose gave him a palatum molle that was too long.. He just couldn't breath and died.. He came all the way from Japan, because he was such a beautiful example of the breed..
I agree Janneke, the original standards of many of the Mastiff breeds have been altered to please owners and ring judges. Look at some of the older pics of Bulldog champions, and compare them with what wins in the ring today. They look totally different.
Some breeders bred a better dog, others, a "prettier" or "showier" dog, not necessarily a healthier dog. The tastes of the 'consumer' are most certainly influenced by what they see on TV with all the televised dog shows. They want a bullie with the most snubbed nose possible, or a GSD with the lowest back hips. They continue to breed because people continue to buy. In some cases, they continue to breed, not because it's whats best for the breed, but what's currently in vogue in the show ring.
When it comes to designer dogs, they are bred here in the US to sell to the consumer with little regard to what's best for the breeds involved and with little or no testing at all in regards to health issues.
They're like the soup of the day here. If you have the ingredients, throw them together and sell to the highest bidder. When your palate changes, get rid of the old ingredients and concoct a new soup.
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The reason distinct breeds were developed in the first place was because people wanted predictable traits. Jason and Miranda are correct when they say that when you mix two breeds you have no way of telling what mix of traits you are going to get.
I don't really see a problem here. I think I can have some idea what character a Poodle x Lab will get.. It won't be something uncontrollable for an owner.. (well.. not more than a B is ;))
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Some breeders bred a better dog, others, a "prettier" or "showier" dog, not necessarily a healthier dog. The tastes of the 'consumer' are most certainly influenced by what they see on TV with all the televised dog shows. They want a bullie with the most snubbed nose possible, or a GSD with the lowest back hips. They continue to breed because people continue to buy. In some cases, they continue to breed, not because it's whats best for the breed, but what's currently in vogue in the show ring.
Talking about "Designer Dogs"…...
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Here we are with dogs are dogs and humans are humans so here go's.
Do we as people need to have testing done for genetic defects so we know who we can marry and who we cannot. If we mix two humans do we get predictable traits???
People change and ways change this change came with the different dogs we may not like it or we may but just life.
Rita Jean
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Perhaps I didn't state it as well as I should, but taken out of context, yes that statement seems OT.
I was responding to your statement about pure bred, …"And about the 'freak of nature' that Vickilb mentioned.. I saw a Bulldog today that died because.. well.. because he was a Bulldog: His lack of nose gave him a palatum molle that was too long.. He just couldn't breath and died.. He came all the way from Japan, because he was such a beautiful example of the breed.."
I also responded on designer dogs as follows....
When it comes to designer dogs, they are bred here in the US to sell to the consumer with little regard to what's best for the breeds involved and with little or no testing at all in regards to health issues.They're like the soup of the day here. If you have the ingredients, throw them together and sell to the highest bidder. When your palate changes, get rid of the old ingredients and concoct a new soup.
Sorry if I offended. Perhaps the culture of breeding for the consumer and unlimited venues for sales of puppies in the US makes me angry.
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Perhaps I didn't state it as well as I should, but taken out of context, yes that statement seems OT.
I was responding to your statement about pure bred, …"And about the 'freak of nature' that Vickilb mentioned.. I saw a Bulldog today that died because.. well.. because he was a Bulldog: His lack of nose gave him a palatum molle that was too long.. He just couldn't breath and died.. He came all the way from Japan, because he was such a beautiful example of the breed.."
I also responded on designer dogs as follows....
When it comes to designer dogs, they are bred here in the US to sell to the consumer with little regard to what's best for the breeds involved and with little or no testing at all in regards to health issues.They're like the soup of the day here. If you have the ingredients, throw them together and sell to the highest bidder. When your palate changes, get rid of the old ingredients and concoct a new soup.
Sorry if I offended. Perhaps the culture of breeding for the consumer and unlimited venues for sales of puppies in the US makes me angry.
I think we agree
But I believe that breeders who destroy breeds because short noses should be extra short etc. do exactly the same as the BYB's who breed very small chi's or mix a pug with whatever to create something that will sell.. One does it for show success, the other for money.. But they are both making 'designer dogs'.. -
Janneke and Snorky998,
I agree, no matter why you do it, you are still designing a dog…whether for fame (in the showring) or for money..
Some dogs are so tweaked they can not even welp without human intervention...but they look good (?) -
@Rita:
Here we are with dogs are dogs and humans are humans so here go's.
Do we as people need to have testing done for genetic defects so we know who we can marry and who we cannot. If we mix two humans do we get predictable traits???
People change and ways change this change came with the different dogs we may not like it or we may but just life.
Rita Jean
If there would be a serious genetic disease in my and my partners 'pedigrees', I would definitely like to find out how likely it would be that we were carrying it and could pass it on to our kids.
But maybe it's better to compair dog breeding with horse breeding, where it's much more accepted to cross breeds.
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If there would be a serious genetic disease in my and my partners 'pedigrees', I would definitely like to find out how likely it would be that we were carrying it and could pass it on to our kids.
But maybe it's better to compair dog breeding with horse breeding, where it's much more accepted to cross breeds.
Well, not really… ... you can't register them... you can't show them.. no real difference then dogs... Only with a couple of horse breeds can you register what would be sort of considered a cross bred, but not with any "Tom, Dick or Harry" that came down the road if you are into showing/breeding... Appaloosa come to mind, but it has to be crossed with a known registery... ie: Quarter Horse, TB, Arab, Morgan... Quarter Horse with only a TB, TB with only TB... and it must be a live breeding...
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@Rita:
Here we are with dogs are dogs and humans are humans so here go's.
Do we as people need to have testing done for genetic defects so we know who we can marry and who we cannot. If we mix two humans do we get predictable traits???
People change and ways change this change came with the different dogs we may not like it or we may but just life.
Rita Jean
Rita in a way we already do this. While I cannot verify that every sperm bank does this, I offer you the following quotes from an article on the web.
" Donors for sperm banks are recruited from the general population through advertising. However, in order to qualify as a donor, the man must fit certain criteria and undergo a series of tests.
All donors are required to be healthy males who are willing to produce the sperm by masturbation at the sperm bank. Prospective donors must also consent to genetic testing as well as to being screened for syphilis, chlamydia, gonorrhea, cystic fibrosis, HIV, Hepatitis B and C, human T-cell lymphotropic viruses, Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, cytomegalovirus and transmissible spongiform encephalopathy.""After a donor's sperm has been accepted for inclusion in the bank, the sperm is cryogenically frozen in tanks of liquid nitrogen for a minimum of six months before use; during this time period, the donor will be periodically checked to make sure that he is healthy and will not pass diseases to others if his sperm is used."
"Sperm banks allow prospective parents access to certain information about sperm donors, often by way of an online catalog, so that they can choose certain physical traits they would like their child to have. The race, eye color, age, height, weight, family history, educational background, blood group and general health is usually listed.
Sperm banks often allow the parent to choose the sex of the child, to purchase and store vials of sperm from a particular donor, and to purchase sperm specifically prepared for certain types of impregnation techniques."(http://www.ehow.com/about_4672393_information-human-sperm-banks.html)
We are already aware that the likelihood of birth defects increases if siblings or other close relatives marry.
Cystic fibrosis, Sickle Cell disease, Tay-Sachs disease are all things that humans can be genetically tested for. There are certain ethnic groups where this type of testing has become very important and common place.
The average person does not know that some of this is going on behind the scenes unless you have encountered in through a specific area of study or career choice.
Jason
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Of course you're always 'speculating' if a dog is wearing a recessive treat if there aren't genetic tests.. even if you're breeding that Poodle to another Poodle.. You research the pedigree to find out more about how much that treat comes back in the lines. But you can also do that for both your Lab and your Poodle.
Secondly: all puppies are cute
Third: I don't care if you call it a Mutt. I'm not a backyard breeder. I'm a responsible breeder. I'm not trying to breed cute puppies. I'm trying to breed happy healthy puppies with good characters that can become nice pets, or good sport dogs.
I know that a lot of the 'mutt/desiger dogs' breeders are doing it for money etc etc. I'm just saying that it's not all bad. If you breed two dogs of different breeds with exactly the same care as two dogs of the same breed.. I don't see a problem there. And we are all responsible for the dogs in the shelters. But I'll rather get my Mutt from a responsible Mutt breeder than from a shelter.. Just as some people rather get their B from a responsible breeder than from BRAT.
Direct quote from your post #15
"Also: I'm not planning on breeding my Poodle to my Lab to start a new breed and breed their offspring.. I'm just breeding my Poodle to my Lab to get cute puppies that go to good homes to be a beloved family pet.. I don't see anything wrong with that."
I thought I would add this quote from your post #15 because it differs from what you are claiming in this one. You reference it as "Third" in your response here.
How far back are you going to study that line. If the trait has not surfaced in the last 5 generations are you going to go back further or you are you going to accept that as sufficient? When can you be absolutely sure that you have bred Healthy Happy Puppies. Even after they are born, they could be subject to a late-onset disease.
I will admit that it is possible to use some statistical analysis if you have a large enough sample. Unfortunately when your sample size shrinks, your ability to predict an outcome becomes less effective or accurate. I am sure if you are attending Veterinary school, then you are probably familiar with statistical analysis of genetics and its value. This type of analysis would retain its value whether it be dogs, cats, horses, or humans that you are studying.
Jason
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How far back are you going to study that line. If the trait has not surfaced in the last 5 generations are you going to go back further or you are you going to accept that as sufficient? When can you be absolutely sure that you have bred Healthy Happy Puppies. Even after they are born, they could be subject to a late-onset disease.
Jason
IMO, it would be amazing to find 5 generations of health testing to identify whether certain traits show up or not, regardless if it is a pure or mixed breeding. When I was looking for my current puppy I was lucky even to find complete health testing one to two generations back much less five. And even those one to two generations was not necessarily complete via CHIC standards.
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Ya' know I had this whole post goin' about the age of the breed and how much human intervention they've had….and I got to the end of my rant and decided it wasn't worth it , deleted it. Bottom line, why do we, periodically, send expeditions to Africa to find more Basenji stock??? A) because we can....no other breed can find their original.
because we want to keep the breed as pure to its roots as possible. All this other cross breeding (unless its to create some better type of working dog) is just human whim and fancy. And, let's face it, most of us are not actually using our dogs, of any breed, to work a farm or ranch. -
IMO, it would be amazing to find 5 generations of health testing to identify whether certain traits show up or not, regardless if it is a pure or mixed breeding. When I was looking for my current puppy I was lucky even to find complete health testing one to two generations back much less five. And even those one to two generations was not necessarily complete via CHIC standards.
This is why the old timers are sooo important. There isn't a lot of health testing now that was available even two gen back in some lines. So how do you know what happened to what dogs? Listen to the long time breeders. You'll be amazed at what comes out. If you can get a couple of long time breeders (I'm talking 20-40 years back) to start talking, they know the lines and have tidbits of info that could be important.
I also agree with Pat. Just because you are breeding two breeds doesn't mean you will get a better dog. You will get an inconsistent dog with the tendencies to develop problems on both sides of breeds. This could result in many, many different problems and new ones as well. What we do know is that poodles have the highest instances of health issues (approx 29 of serious problems at the very least. This does not include same basic ones such as fatty lumps, blindness, hearing loss, etc) of almost all breeds. So you're breeding a highly probable health issue breed with one with different health issues and the odds are astronomical in what they will get. It just gets scary.
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IMO, it would be amazing to find 5 generations of health testing to identify whether certain traits show up or not, regardless if it is a pure or mixed breeding. When I was looking for my current puppy I was lucky even to find complete health testing one to two generations back much less five. And even those one to two generations was not necessarily complete via CHIC standards.
And it wouldn't necessarily give you a clear picture either, because so many genetic diseases at this point have an unknown pattern of inhertitance. You really have to see a vertical pedigree, which includes as many siblings at each generation, and their offspring as possible…and since most of the dogs that are sold as non-breeding stock are never tested, or even reported on ...you don't really get a clear picture.
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Direct quote from your post #15
"Also: I'm not planning on breeding my Poodle to my Lab to start a new breed and breed their offspring.. I'm just breeding my Poodle to my Lab to get cute puppies that go to good homes to be a beloved family pet.. I don't see anything wrong with that."
I thought I would add this quote from your post #15 because it differs from what you are claiming in this one. You reference it as "Third" in your response here.
How far back are you going to study that line. If the trait has not surfaced in the last 5 generations are you going to go back further or you are you going to accept that as sufficient? When can you be absolutely sure that you have bred Healthy Happy Puppies. Even after they are born, they could be subject to a late-onset disease.
I will admit that it is possible to use some statistical analysis if you have a large enough sample. Unfortunately when your sample size shrinks, your ability to predict an outcome becomes less effective or accurate. I am sure if you are attending Veterinary school, then you are probably familiar with statistical analysis of genetics and its value. This type of analysis would retain its value whether it be dogs, cats, horses, or humans that you are studying.
Jason
I'm glad you are paying attention to my exact words, but I think I have mentioned in almost every post I'm planning to use tested, healthy (blah blah blah) parents to produce healthy (well.. hopefully) puppies.
My question is: what's the difference between breeding two dogs of two different breeds and two dogs of the same breed if you are doing everything exactly the same.. (health testing, looking at the pedigrees, having new homes before breeding etc. etc.) besides getting Mutts that you can't show..
(If I would ever add a mix to the family, I'll definitely call it Mutt :D)About the part in red, that also counts for breeding purebred. (Maybe even more..?)
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Well, not really… ... you can't register them... you can't show them.. no real difference then dogs... Only with a couple of horse breeds can you register what would be sort of considered a cross bred, but not with any "Tom, Dick or Harry" that came down the road if you are into showing/breeding... Appaloosa come to mind, but it has to be crossed with a known registery... ie: Quarter Horse, TB, Arab, Morgan... Quarter Horse with only a TB, TB with only TB... and it must be a live breeding...
Well.. I see this as being 'more accepted'. I can't think of any example of cross breeding that's accepted in the world of dog breeding. (sometimes it's not even accepted to mix a short haired whatever to his long haired nephew)
And remember: I wasn't into showing/breeding my Mutts
And I'm not talking about any "Tom, Dick or Harry".. I have a Champion Lab and a Champion Poodle… :p -
I'm glad you are paying attention to my exact words, but I think I have mentioned in almost every post I'm planning to use tested, healthy (blah blah blah) parents to produce healthy (well.. hopefully) puppies.
My question is: what's the difference between breeding two dogs of two different breeds and two dogs of the same breed if you are doing everything exactly the same.. (health testing, looking at the pedigrees, having new homes before breeding etc. etc.) besides getting Mutts that you can't show..
(If I would ever add a mix to the family, I'll definitely call it Mutt :D)About the part in red, that also counts for breeding purebred. (Maybe even more..?)
Seriously I think at this point you are debating for the sake of debating. Yes I certainly do pay attention to your words, because I wish to quote you properly and you keep modifying your position by the words you are choosing to use or how you choose to present them. So to make sure I did not take anything you said out of context and to preserve consistency, I chose to quote you instead of paraphrase.
It would have been nice if you paid the same attention when the words **"Form and Function" **were used, thusly rendering the Bulldog example useless.
Apparently now you are describing the dogs you wish to use as Champions. It does not matter if they are champions or how tested they are, you still have completely unpredictable outcome. This is why I mentioned Statistical Analysis of Genetics in another post. The main reason for that is because** there is always a margin of error. **It's a fact that you cannot get away from, just like the fact that there are entirely too many mixed breed dogs already without homes, why make more?
It goes back to the only responsible breeding is to improve the breed in Form and Function. Without regard to that purpose it appears that your desire to breed these two different breeds is more out of curiosity than anything else.
At this point, we just going to agree to disagree because we do not see scientific or valid foundation for continuing further.
Jason and Miranda
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IMO, it would be amazing to find 5 generations of health testing to identify whether certain traits show up or not, regardless if it is a pure or mixed breeding. When I was looking for my current puppy I was lucky even to find complete health testing one to two generations back much less five. And even those one to two generations was not necessarily complete via CHIC standards.
Nemo you make an excellent point here.
Jason
