Also, Bryan Gregory of Jumoke Basenji had a 5-yr old female to place. Best wishes.
TOP 5 MOST INFLUENTIAL STUDS and females of the last 20 yrs
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This thread really made me go::eek::eek:
It can't be good for any breed, especially not a breed with a small genetic basis, to use a male THAT much..
We agree, it seems scary! Any dog bred that much seems excessive. It could be just asking for trouble. Certainly, in the wild, left to their own devices, no creature would be allowed to make such a extreme impact on the genes in the pool. We feel this artificially narrows the gene pool and is bound to have an adverse effect on the breed. Out in the wild, natural selection rules.
Would it not be more beneficial for any breed if the breeders would try to breed in a fashion more similar to natural selection? In other words, prohibit the overbreeding of any individual beyond what would be reasonable in the wild.
There are reasons why this is not encouraged, and in most cases prohibited within human cultures.
If the purpose of breeding is to reproduce and improve the finest traits and genetic characteristics of the breed, then doesn't massive repetition of breeding the same animal defeat that purpose since it doesn't add anything significantly new to the breed and it doesn't perpetuate those traits being carried forward in future generations.
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This is an interesting question… breeding more isn't better in some cases.
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Pretty loaded question…. and it is pretty hard to go back 20/30 yrs and talk about what "was" done... I think we need to look forward.... and what is the right thing to do... I doubt that you will ever get rid of the "popular" sire syndrome... but I certainly do not agree with it... Dogs like Spotty were way over used as were dogs like Nate... Of course now that we have a Fanconi linkage test, we can certainly improve the odds with producing Fanconi. Both lines produced it, there is no doubt about that. Same with dogs coming from Vikentor's Lucky Mountaineer and in some lines Kazor's Dandy Deerstalker, that were line bred and over used. However now we have a pretty common practice of collection and freezing males. It gives a better option of using different dogs to the breeders that are interested is expanding the gene pool with including the Avongara dogs in their breeding programs.
We need to look forward... but still look back as to what happened with the dogs used or over used... what did they do for the breed? And just because we have a linkage test for Fanconi, we still MUST be aware that there are other health concrerns in our breed, PRA comes to mind since we have no DNA test for that. Hips are beginning to be more of a problem.. and if you don't test, you don't know.... add to that Thyroid and Patella's... so much to condsider when breeding... and at the top of the list temperament.. but remember, you can breed what you think is the best temperament going.. but if that puppy is hurting physically.. it will NOT have a very nice temperament...
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When air travel became more affordable so that people could more easily ship their bitch to a stud across the country, popular sire syndrome became a much larger problem.
Pat is right, we can not change what happened 20-30 years ago but we can learn from what has happened. We do need to be aware of popular sire syndrome and the damage it does to the gene pool. We used to have a lot more lines of basenjis then there are today. It can be hard to find pedigrees that do not have the dogs mentioned in this thread in them. Many have several of those dogs in their pedigrees.
We do need to be aware that there are several health issues in this breed and breed responsibly which means not using any one dog so much that you can't find a pedigree without it.
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Randa,
Jaroufa's Light of Djakomba was my dog,Lightning.He was the most wonderful dog in the whole world.Sadly,I lost him to the first Diamond Dog Food Recall.
Lightning was a friend to all he meet.
How was your dog,Roo related to my Lightning?Kathryn
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To All,
Spotty was not justed that much.On average he was bred to only one or two bitches a year.There was only one year that I can remember that he was just for more bitches.I know this because he stayed with me for many a breeding season ,and I handled the breeding.Doris was in Europe at the time.
Kathryn
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To All,
Spotty was not justed that much.On average he was bred to only one or two bitches a year.There was only one year that I can remember that he was just for more bitches.I know this because he stayed with me for many a breeding season ,and I handled the breeding.Doris was in Europe at the time.
Kathryn
There are at least 60+ litters listed by Spotty on Sally Wallis site… to me that is over the top... this doesn't include ones that never got registered.... but again, we can't go back and change the past... we can only use the information to go forward in making wise breeding decisions
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To All,
Spotty was not justed that much.On average he was bred to only one or two bitches a year.There was only one year that I can remember that he was just for more bitches.I know this because he stayed with me for many a breeding season ,and I handled the breeding.Doris was in Europe at the time.
Here is the number of breedings per year based on the breedings listed in Sally's website.
1979 - 1
1980 - 2
1981 - 5
1982 - 4
1983 - 3
1984 - 4
1985 - 5
1986 - 1
1987 -1
1988 - 12
1989 - 7
1990 - 6
1991 - 5
1992 - 3I may have missed some in my tallying but I think I got them all. He has 214 offspring listed in Sally's database. That is an awful lot and definitely has an effect on the genepool.
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There where 47 litters bred as per AKC.I don't believe there was any litters not reg.
I will ck with Doris,but I do know that for a fact.Kathryn
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Randa,
Jaroufa's Light of Djakomba was my dog,Lightning.He was the most wonderful dog in the whole world.Sadly,I lost him to the first Diamond Dog Food Recall.
Lightning was a friend to all he meet.
How was your dog,Roo related to my Lightning?Kathryn
Kathryn thanks for posting!
Your Jaroufa's Light of Djakomba (Brindle and White) was bred to Djakomba Streaks Wyoland(Brindle and White). That pairing produced Djakomba's Jumpin Jack Flash(Brindle and White) Djakomba's Jumpin Jack Flash was then bred to FL Danc Hussr (Black and Tan) which produced the Dam of our Basenji Chewy Barrick( Brindle and White). Chewy Barrick was bred to Barricks Diamond(Red and White) that produced our Basenji Roo(Red and White).
Unfortunately for us we lack information on the Sire's side. We have a couple of names that appear as his parents but nothing further back.
On the Dam's side we believe we have all the AKC numbers going back to Jaroufa's Light of Djakomba who came from the pairing of CH. Kazor's Vim 'N Vigor at Sirius and Arubmec's Sage of Djakomba.
By the way our Basenji Roo tested Fanconi clear and should be up on the OFA site.
The Breeder or Back Yard Breeder in Illinois where we got our puppy was given the Sire and Dam from his sister who was in Pa. Even though we followed up with the Breeder and he contacted his sister to get information, his sister did not provide the information to him in regard to the sire's pedigree and so the litter was unregisterable with the AKC. Of course this broke our hearts because we certainly would have shown Roo and since he tested probably clear for Fanconi we would have made him available for breeding. Of course the most important thing in the end, was to give our Basenji the best home possible.
Since all was not in order, Miranda and I did the responsible thing. We had him Fanconi Tested and Neutered. Now we will apply for a Pal number from the AKC so we can involve him in both Agility and Coursing and hopefully with the right training from us and some patience he will have fun and bring home some awards from his participation.
Jason and Miranda
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Dear Jason and Miranda,
Thanks for the info. My Lightning's son Djakomba's Jumpin' Jack Flash was sold to someone who was not honest.Since the breeding was a co-breeding,Doris sold her share of the litter.One of them was Jack Flash.He was bought by a person who didn't tell the true and was indeed a puppy mill.
I don't know any info on the dogs who where bred to him.I do know that there where other people who bought pups from the breeding and I had one with me for about 7 months for training.Anyone on Basenji-L would know the story of Herc.I'm so glad that your Roo is clear and that he is a beautiful dog.Lightning produced great prey drive in his pups that I had raced.I'm sure that your Roo will do well when you get an ILP for him.
Kathryn
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There where 47 litters bred as per AKC.I don't believe there was any litters not reg.
I will ck with Doris,but I do know that for a fact.Kathryn
If you look at Sally's site and her records come from AKC.. obviously there are more litters then 47… some bitches were bred more then once.. maybe that is the difference? And honestly you never know if a pup from a litter was registered or not unless you (or the breeder) personally registered every pup or checked and made sure they were all registered. Years ago.. when a pup was placed as a pet, many owners never bothered to send in the registration.
But again.. in the end.. it is water over the bridge... hopefully we have learned from breeders in the past.. and can get by the "popular" sire syndrome... and expand our gene pool...
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As far as Popular Sire syndrome is concerned,Spotty was never a popular sire.And,I was on Sally's website yesterday and there are only 47 breedings recorded.
Most of what Spot sired went into pet homes where they lived long and healthy and happy lives.To say he had 75 champion get is a testement to him.
Also,only one of his get ,Ch.Sakari's Spot the Target,CD was used to any great degree(and is still being used as he has frozen sperm).Not a lot of Spot's pups where bred.So,not much in the way of influncing the gene pool. -
Sorry if I'm so defensive of Spotty,he wasn't mine, but lived with me for extended times and in my mind he was the perfect Basenji.In fact,he was the first basenji I ever met way back in 1976.He sired my first basenji"Charm" and later my"Mara" Ch.Termay's Connemara(reserve winner's bitch,National 1981).Years later he sired my first litter out of my blk bitch,Cookie,Blucrest Fore Sundance Hope.He was always my favorite and I loved him deeply.
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In other discussions of popular sires, it has been pretty well agreed on that based on the number of basenjis registered in a year, a Popular Sire, is any dog that produces 100 or more offspring. By this definition Djakomba's Spotlight is absolutely a Popular Sire. Also, you are incorrect to say that the only offspring of his that was significantly used was Sukari's Spot The Target. That is just not so. In fact, Reveille Boutonniere is a great-grandson through his daughter Aleika's Destiny dam of Juju's Pistol Pete. Aleika's Destiny is behind several recognizable names you will find her in the pedigrees of several kennels through other offspring besides Simba. Arubmec's Lady Liberty is a Spotty daughter is the dam of Arubmec's Jon Luke and behind many Arubmec dogs. There are actually several Arubmec dogs that go back to Spotty, Pat Cembura used him a few times. Calypso Blaze of Glory and Calypso Bassanova were used in the Calypso breeding program. Djakomba's Solo Spotshot is behind several Akuaba, Akili, Hacker and Rafiki dogs. Termay's Killarney is behind Schaumburg, Kudabin, Farouk, Mata Hauri, Bushbabies, Calypso, Reveille and Serengeti.
In fact if you look at the Reverse Pedigree function of Sally's website you would see that Djakomba Spotlight has had a significant impact on the genepool and can be found in pedigrees for Kenset, Klassic, Nyanga, Sirius, Kibushi, Explicit, Sundiata, Arubmec, Jaroufa, Wyoland, Thor, Itzyu, Serengeti, Rugosa, Mata Hauri, Apex, Calypso, Terrarust, Dakarai, Viento, Jasiri-Sukari, Tamsala, Meisterhaus, Lacada, Echelon, Akuaba, Explicit, Berimo, Taji, Tomar, Kazor, Astarte, and the list goes on and on.
No matter how you look at it he was a Popular Sire and he DID have a significant impact on the genepool and is behind many, many dogs today.
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I agree. He definitely comes to mind as a popular sire. But, I don't think that Jaroufa has need to be defensive. People had good reason to want to use Spotty and his offspring in their breeding programs. He obviously set good type, and he lived a long, healthy life (correct?). Popular sire syndrome is present in purebred dogs, because only a few dogs have the completely package that most people are looking for…correct conformation, temperament and health. Of course, health is somewhat of question mark unless there are genetic tests available, and appropriate diagnostic tests are being done. But I don't think anyone should feel the need to apologize for a dog being considered a popular sire. As time goes on, we learn more and more about the best breeding practices to preserve diversity in a gene pool...but we don't want to castigate breeders of the past that didn't have that knowledge.
JMO....
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We can't change past but we should learn from it. We should think more critically about how many times a stud dog should be used and how it effects the genepool. In some countries they put a hard limit on how often a stud can be used and though I do feel we need some flexibility we do need to be aware of how overuse effects the genepool. It is important that we know who the popular sires in our genepool are. This doesn't mean that we are bashing them or their owners, it is just being aware of where we stand as a breed.
IMO Popular Sire Syndrome is not necessarily about being the "best" basenji. I think that wins and how well known a dog is factors heavily into popular sire syndrome. On the flip side, there are plenty of dogs that won't get used because no one knows they exist because their owners do not have website, do not advertise, and are only known locally.
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We can't change past but we should learn from it. We should think more critically about how many times a stud dog should be used and how it effects the genepool. In some countries they put a hard limit on how often a stud can be used and though I do feel we need some flexibility we do need to be aware of how overuse effects the genepool. It is important that we know who the popular sires in our genepool are. This doesn't mean that we are bashing them or their owners, it is just being aware of where we stand as a breed.
IMO Popular Sire Syndrome is not necessarily about being the "best" basenji. I think that wins and how well known a dog is factors heavily into popular sire syndrome. On the flip side, there are plenty of dogs that won't get used because no one knows they exist because their owners do not have website, do not advertise, and are only known locally.
I don't know, Lisa. I think theoretically your point has merit, but if you look at our top winners, a lot of them haven't been used much because people were concerned about health or temperament issues. The top winning Basenji of all time, as beautiful, and sweet as Johnny was, he was hardly used at all, because of health concerns in his pedigree. Dogs that become popular sires do well in the ring, and have proven themselves as successful studs that pass on their best qualities with a variety of bitches.
Now, if the argument is being a top winning Basenji is not necessarily about being the best Basenji, I would totally agree. But I think that the fancy, as a whole, has a good eye for picking a good stud, and often they settle on the same dog because he has something to offer a lot of bitches. That isn't to say that there aren't a LOT of great dogs sitting in someone's backyard, that just weren't exposed in the right places, at the right time..there are. And they would definitely help genetic diversity. But if your position is that popular sires are created by great show wins, I have to disagree.
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As far as Popular Sire syndrome is concerned,Spotty was never a popular sire.And,I was on Sally's website yesterday and there are only 47 breedings recorded.
Most of what Spot sired went into pet homes where they lived long and healthy and happy lives.To say he had 75 champion get is a testement to him.
Also,only one of his get ,Ch.Sakari's Spot the Target,CD was used to any great degree(and is still being used as he has frozen sperm).Not a lot of Spot's pups where bred.So,not much in the way of influncing the gene pool.There was more the 47 breedings, as some bitches were bred more than once, if you look at the offspring under the bitches, please note that there are different dates of birth. But again, no reason to be defensive….. he contributed a lot to the breed...
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I don't know, Lisa. I think theoretically your point has merit, but if you look at our top winners, a lot of them haven't been used much because people were concerned about health or temperament issues. The top winning Basenji of all time, as beautiful, and sweet as Johnny was, he was hardly used at all, because of health concerns in his pedigree. Dogs that become popular sires do well in the ring, and have proven themselves as successful studs that pass on their best qualities with a variety of bitches.
Actually, I believe that things are changing and the fact that it does take more than just being the winningest dog is evidence of that but I do still think that there is a lot of emphasis placed on titles and accomplishments. A better way of looking at it, how many Popular Sires are not "Big Winners"?
