Outside vs. Inside

[tanza]

A little information, first hand about dogs made to live outdoors…. I placed a pup with a family, was totally assured the dog would be indoors except when they were are work, but provisions made to include a doggy door in the family room with an xpen, so that the pup could be out if they wanted or if the weather was cold/rainy etc., had a climate control area to be in. I even personally checked this out... Only to find out months later that the pup was living in the backyard with only the garage as shelter (not heated or insulated)... I was to be sure furious... when I confronted the owner I was told this was because they couldn't housetrain him.. ??? I asked have you really tried? You know you have to expect accidents?... housetraining doesn't happen overnight. They also had a older Chihuahua (that was also not housetrained) and I was told that the pup played to rough... I told them, we talked about that... and what to do to help the situation (as it turned out they were really both fine, but both played rough.. and there was lots of noise)... End result was a Basenji in very poor coat condition (and remember we are in No. Cal (bay area) and typically have mostly decent weather).. totally unsocialized, wild, unsure about people, barely leash trained... I could go on and on... Bottom line, I told them either the dog is intergrated into the family and the house or they should consider re-homing.... Answer.. oh but we love him?.. HUH??? he lived outdoors, you were never outdoors,... a quick hello, pat on the head, food and water doesn't cut it.... As it turned out the parents seperated and she had to move and couldn't take the boy.. thankgoodness for that and that my contract said that the boy comes back to me, period.. and no they can't sell him.... And believe me, it was a struggle to get him straighten out...
Moral of the story... in this case I didn't know this was going to happen and this could happen to any breeder... however, if I would have known up front that this was going to be the case, I would have never placed a pup with this person....

[mauigirl]

We are also living with my father for a bit since we moved from california. At first he was TOTALLY against the idea of 2 dogs in the house but he very quickly relented. Now he adores our tri boy and is constantly slipping him watermelon treats. We do have a pretty large back yard and when it's warm outside the dogs hang out there on their dog bed. They love it out there because they can chase rabbits, chipmunks, and other furry creatures. But we also go outside and play with them alot (Riley even plays fetch!) and they also spend a good amount of time inside with us. So they're 1/4-outdoor 3/4-indoor doggies. Since it's gotten colder they are only indoor doggies. So I think that a happy medium can be attained. IMO dogs have more stimulation and get more excercise while outside but that is not a replacement for human contact. It also helps that we have 2 basenjis so they are never alone. And they always get a long walk or go to the dog park in the evening.

Perhaps you can bargain with your parents. They might be just afraid that they'll be solely responsible for the dog or, as my dad puts it, the dog will "be a ball and chain". If you can't bargain with them then try to put off getting a dog for a bit. Another really cool and unique pet is a hedgehog.

Liz

[lvoss]

@mauigirl:

IMO dogs have more stimulation and get more excercise while outside but that is not a replacement for human contact.

I am sorry to disagree about the more stimulation and excercise but having done rescue and voluteered at my shelter and seeing dogs from these situations this is absolutely not true. Most outside dogs are only getting enough physical exercise if they are being allowed to indulge in bad behaviors like fence running or some of the nuisance behaviors that I discussed before. Most dogs get the most postive exercise when they are interacting with their humans and playing with their housemates. The only way an outdoor dog is getting more mental stimulation than an indoor dog with regular human contact is because it is inventing ways to entertain itself which in almost all cases is going to result in an unhappy human. When I talk about a dog needing mental stimulation they need to work their brains, either through short training sessions, games, or interactive toys.

I do think that owners have many options for outdoor activities with their dogs to fulfill the need for exercise and mental stimulation but that human interaction is key to insuring that these are positive outlets and not contributing to nuisance behaviors.

[gbroxon]

IMO, if your parents are requiring that the dog be outside, don't get a dog.

[mauigirl]

"The only way an outdoor dog is getting more mental stimulation than an indoor dog with regular human contact is because it is inventing ways to entertain itself which in almost all cases is going to result in an unhappy human. When I talk about a dog needing mental stimulation they need to work their brains, either through short training sessions, games, or interactive toys."

I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I do not think that a dog should only be an outside dog. But dogs that are kept only indoors are missing out on exploring new scents and being in their natural habitat, not to mention finding that perfect sunspot that alot of my rooms do not have. I am perfectly happy to see my dogs sprint out of the sliding glass door in order to try to catch a squirrel and watching their differing plans of attack. As for mental stimulation outside they have plenty of fun games that are played outside with them. And honestly, not all inside dogs have stimulation. I agree that when a dog is ONLY left outside they can engage in behaviors that could be detrimental to their health and the sanity of their owners. But keeping them locked inside is just as detrimental. Destructive behaviors are a sign of that. Dogs should be able to explore and have quality time with their humans. And training is a key part of that. I think the problem is thinking in absolutes: only inside, only outside. A happy medium can be arranged for us lucky enough to enjoy a warmer climate for the majority of the year.

Liz

[lvoss]

This thread is about keeping a dog as an outdoor only dog. Everyone here who uses the term indoor dog does not mean that their dogs do not have access to the outdoors in either the form of daily walks or access to a yard. I consider the term indoor dog to mean a dog that spends the majority of its time with its humans where ever they might be, indoors or outdoors. I consider the term outdoor dog to mean a dog that lives away from its humans most of the time even if that time is spent in a garage or shed, it is the separation from humans that is the distinction.

I absolutely think that there are worthwhile activities for dogs outdoors but I do not think that simply opening a door and putting them outside fulfills their need for mental stimulation and physical exercise and can not be relied on as the primary means of providing these.

[mauigirl]

I totally agree. walks and dog parks (if you go to those) are vital to a dogs exercise. it just so happens that i have a large backyard that my dogs play with each other in and do b500s so it is added exercise. I was only suggesting that she attempt to bargain with her parents so as to come to some sort of arrangement that allows the dog to be inside for the majority of the time. Most people can be persuaded or bargained with. You just have to find the correct method and be persistent.

"Everyone here who uses the term indoor dog does not mean that their dogs do not have access to the outdoors in either the form of daily walks or access to a yard. I consider the term indoor dog to mean a dog that spends the majority of its time with its humans where ever they might be, indoors or outdoors. I consider the term outdoor dog to mean a dog that lives away from its humans most of the time even if that time is spent in a garage or shed, it is the separation from humans that is the distinction."

Perhaps her parents do not realize those distinctions. Just because everyone here knows them (presumably) does not mean that people off of this forum or non-dog people do.

[lvoss]

IME, if a member of the household is truly not happy with the idea of an indoor dog there is no amount of persuasion or bargaining that is going to change that. What I see is very much the sort of situation that Pat described in her post about the family who was keeping the dog in the backyard because of "housetraining issues".

[mauigirl]

How long has she been discussing this with her parents? If it's been a while and they are still staunchly against it then it is a bad idea. But other times it is just a knee-jerk reaction and fear that they will be the ones taking care of the dog. As i said before, my father was very against the idea of having two indoor doggies and grumbled about it to no end. But now he adores the dogs and takes care of them when we are not at home during the day sometimes. Maybe mine is just a cinderella story but maybe her parents are just trying to scare her into not getting a dog.

And as for Pat's story, if this girl thinks that her parents are truly capable of doing that to a dog (and not just bluffing) then no way should she get one until the situation changes.

Sorry LVOSS if i'm coming off confrontational. I might just be in one of those contrary or debating moods. Nicki doesn't like to debate with me :rolleyes:

[tanza]

I would still like to know if the breeder knows about this potential problem….

And with my story, I think that the husband had the problem (even though he had visited the house a number of times and never gave any indication).. but in the end, if everyone is not on board.. the animal will take the fall out.

[lvoss]

I haven't taken it to be confrontational, but after doing dog evaluations for rescue and seeing this situation over and over again, and then working at my local shelter and seeing it there over and over again it is definitely the exception that if someone is truly against the idea that they will have a radical change of opinion.

On the other hand, if the person is really more on the fence but with a leaning to one side, often they can change their mind. Or if the person is gradually exposed to the opposing view.

As an example, when I was in high school, I very much wanted a purebred dog. I wanted to do junior handling, 4-H and all of that. I had researched breeds and dragged my mom to dog shows and we went to breeder's houses. At that time my mom just couldn't understand the whole thing about the price, the care, etc. As much as I wanted that, there was no amount of information, bargaining, convincing that I could do to get my mom to understand.

When I moved out on my own I got my purebred dog and he would go with us on vacation and my mom would come and watch me show him and over time she came to understand and appreciate that different point of view. So much so that when she moved to Southern California and was missing having family around and didn't have enough to keep her busy that she decided to give dog showing a try. By then even my dad's view of dogs had changed since he was one who said, never will a dog be in my bed and yet the first night Cole was there he was in the bed because "the poor puppy was cold". It was because their attitude had changed gradually as they interacted with my dogs and saw the difference in quality of life my dogs had that they came around even though all the ways I tried when I was in high school didn't work.

[mauigirl]

Perhaps her parents think that dogs should be outside since they're dogs. The whole "they're animals and that's where they're supposed to be" thing. Some people really don't know better unfortunately and don't mean to be malicious. Maybe educating the parents would be the best thing. Perhaps her mom sees the other dog being an "outside" dog and thinks that that is the way things are done.

[renaultf1]

@mauigirl:

How long has she been discussing this with her parents? If it's been a while and they are still staunchly against it then it is a bad idea. But other times it is just a knee-jerk reaction and fear that they will be the ones taking care of the dog. As i said before, my father was very against the idea of having two indoor doggies and grumbled about it to no end. But now he adores the dogs and takes care of them when we are not at home during the day sometimes. Maybe mine is just a cinderella story but maybe her parents are just trying to scare her into not getting a dog.

Liz, I can see one big difference with your outcome and the potential outcome of this…you are an adult...you understand responsibility. If your father hadn't come around, because you were already responsible for your dogs, you would still have been the one handling all the care of the dog. In a situation with a kid that has to convince a parent that the dog can be an indoor dog, I would say there are some major red flags. It really sounds like the parents don't want to be involved with the dog. What happens if the parents don't come around and the kid still gets the dog...the dog is the one that pays the price when the kid goes off with his friends, plays sports after school, etc. And thinking of that outcome makes me very sad.

[mauigirl]

If she thinks that the parents won't come around then she shouldn't get the dog. That is why she should discuss it and lay out her argument before the fact. If it seems hopeless then don't get the pup. But there's no harm in attempting to make a well thought-out argument and see exactly where the parents are coming from. Does anyone know how old this "kid" is? I think that might be of importance also.

I'm only 24….i like to think of myself as an overgrown kid.:D

[sharronhurlbut]

I don't know if we have heard from this poster since the first post…have we?

[tanza]

@sharronhurlbut:

I don't know if we have heard from this poster since the first post…have we?

The poster made two posts yesterday… and I have not seen them back.... sad... especially because they are in my area... only about 20 miles away...

Of course could have been someone looking to get a "rise" out of us.....

[sharronhurlbut]

Well Pat, if you could get them over to visit your home and see how b's should be, it would be a kindness for all involved.
Maybe they will come visit.

[tanza]

@sharronhurlbut:

Well Pat, if you could get them over to visit your home and see how b's should be, it would be a kindness for all involved.
Maybe they will come visit.

Yes, but they would have to contact me…. that has not happened...

[sharronhurlbut]

Well, I so hope they do.
Thank you for the offer.
Hugs

[Andrew]

@mauigirl:

(apparently Liz has started posting to the forum, so Carrie/Andrew style we're going to be sort of confusing and post under the same name…)

Copydog…