Is my basenji from a legit breeder?

[Natalplum]

I feel ya Meandi! I know Mick was not cared for properly. I know that we are in for a load with all this testing that needs to be done on him. He is the most amazing dog I have ever come across and I would not trade it for the world. He may not be a show dog or come from the right place but he's mine and we love him no matter what.

[Rivermoon]

If you're looking at prices on the internet and in the paper…those are mostly BYB or puppy mill dogs. One of the breeders can actually go into the cost of whelping a litter...but they don't make money and if they do it's a pittance. They also either show and/or do lure coursing or other events to title their dogs. You also have to factor that in when you talk about the cost. I got my last pup from a breeder here and only paid $800.00 for him..that was a few years ago, so I'm sure the price has gone up some. To breed a dog of any breed just to do it isn't responsible and is why there are so many dogs left at shelters or dumped on the streets. A responsible breeder will also take a dog back at any time during it's life for any reason. Are you prepared to do that?

You may as well face the fact that your breeder was a BYB or puppy miller. A responsible breeder DOES do health testing and DOESN'T sell their dogs at auctions. My first b was a puppymill dog...I didn't know better when I got him. Did I love him any less? NO...I loved him with all my heart and he taught me a lot....about the responsiblility of dog ownership,and about basenjis. I also then learned about puppy mills, BYB and responsible breeders. Love your pup, spay her and enjoy your life with her. Learn about the breed, what a responsible breeder is and does and maybe take it on with your next dog.

[mauigirl]

@MEANDI:

yes my breeder may have been a backyard breeder but no one knows exactly for sure.

IMO, I consider fanconi testing very black and white when it comes to responsibility. If you're not familiar with the disease, there are members on this forum who have fanconi afflicted dogs and with a little searching you can read all about the difficulties they've faced. When BYB's don't test for fanconi they take the risk of producing puppies that will develop fanconi. If they aren't willing to spend, how much is it, maybe $75 including blood collection and shipping to test one dog, I doubt they are doing pedigree research to avoid passing on this disease. They're going into it blind. Not very responsible when they have the option to do otherwise. Even if they test both dogs, they likely recoup that expense by selling ONE puppy.

I'm not saying that ONLY testing for fanconi makes a breeder responsible, but NOT doing so definitely makes them irresponsible. Does that help?

[etzbseder]

Like others have been saying, there are many dogs out there that are too over-priced, but it is usually do to the BYB and their desire for money. The only reason some of them can charge that much, is because a responsible breeder has to charge that much to afford simply caring for their other pups and dogs the correct way. Testing gets very expensive, especially when you add in things like fanconi tests for all the puppies. Also, the pups from responsible breeders usually are getting much higher quality food, and that costs a lot more.

There are some BYB that do some health testing, but as I am finding out, their motives are very questionable as well.

I must agree that the best thing for you to do is spay your dog, and simply love her and give her the home she deserves. Even though I was eventually decided not to breed my dog, I still got him neutered because that is one of the best things to do. It also make is much easier for me to get another dog in the future from a responsible breeder. I have been talking with one who is selling their pups for $900, which is a bargain for a health tested dog with a good background, so they are out there.

Something you may also want to look at would be some of my other posts. I still don't quite understand all the dislike of the more inexpensive route of having puppies, as long as there is health testing, and there are several discussions on the matter. I do understand why breeding for pure profit is horrible for both the litter to be produced and all the other dogs out there, but I still don't quite see where some of the responsible breeders come up with their price tags, when they refer other responsible breeders that charge half as much.

[MEANDI]

i think its odd that the parents have to be from the AKC to have your dog registered with the AKC. If i went to africa and got a basenji i couldnt even get the dog registered with AKC and its straight from where basenji's came from. I understand what your saying about it costs money to take care of them thats why they charge so much.

[agilebasenji]

Why do those well bred pups cost so much?

Here's some good info:
http://www.geocities.com/rugosab/Prices.htm
Keep in mind that this is several years old, so the Fanconi test wasn't around and prices have increase (especially gasoline!).

I know someone who just bred their champion non-basenji. She spent well over $2500 just getting this girl bred (travel, hotel, gasoline, stud fee, emergency C-section) that does not include health testing, show fees, etc. There were 3 pups in the litter (all boys).

[etzbseder]

Meandi, the AKC does open the stud books, very rarely, to new dogs such as what you're talking about. I believe the books have been open to imports brought out of Africa twice in the last 50 years, so it doesn't happen often, but with more well known breeds with more non-related dogs, the books are even open less often.

[lvoss]

There is so much here to respond to, I am not quite sure where to start.

I think I will start with AKC registration. The purpose of AKC is to verify that the lineage of a dog is what it is said to be. AKC can not verify that if the dog comes from non-AKC parents. As for dogs straight from Africa, AKC does have a process for a breed's parent club to petition to open the stud books to Foundation Stock. BCOA recent filed such a petition and it was voted unanimously by the AKC Board of Directors to allow the stud books to be open for Native Born African Basenjis following a rigorous acceptance procedure. You can find the information in the NEWS section of the BCOA webpage, http://www.basenjis.org

Now for the issue of "just breeding a dog". Responsible breeders charge the price that they do in order to come somewhere close to breaking even. Most breeders that I know charge less than $1000 though in California vet costs are making it very difficult to come close to breaking even when charging less thank that. I have started a whole new thread on the cost of raising a litter, http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?p=50832#post50832

Maybe other breeders who are breeding this year will share their costs since prices do vary depending on where in the country you are located and each breeding is a little different but I would think if a few people posted their costs, it would give a better idea of where responsible breeders come up with their fee and why we all say if you are doing it right, you aren't really making money at it.

[tanza]

@MEANDI:

I guess all im trying to say is even if a breeder is breeding just for breeding purposes they are still looking to make money plain and simple and people on here act as if thats not true so thats why im upset because yes my breeder may have been a backyard breeder but no one knows exactly for sure. But the fact that everyone said she was just selling the pups just to make profit i can say that about legit breeders also. And i feel like people aren't saying outright but leaning towards that the fact my basenji may not be a full line of basenji's and of course im going to be defensive about my dog ya know what i mean. Im not trying to be rude i apologize if i came across rude. Sorry people i may have offended

I have never made a profit from the litters that I have bred. And while you might not really like what I am saying, please understand that responsible breeders breed to better the breed, never to make money. It is totally not true that a responsible breeder "looks" to make money. We feel lucky if we can break even after all the health testing and raising the litter.

In this thread, you did ask if your pups breeder was legit. I am sorry that if it didn't sound nice to hear that he/she is not and that this person was most likely breeding for profit, no health testing and using other registery than AKC. Add to that someone that would sell their "pet" at a public auction, no way could be considered responsible at least not in my opinion. My Basenjis are my pets first… if that was not the case then I would not have 3 at home now that are 17 (come Sept 9th), 15 3/4 and 13 1/2... obviously they are not breeding and/or showing at their age.. but are our pets... And add to that that only one of them has ever been bred for one litter. The other girl, I didn't feel should be bred because she did have some health issues (allergies) and while she is a show and coursing champion, that still didn't mean that she should or needed to be bred.

[ComicDom1]

@MacPack:

Speaking only from my own perspective as a "pet owner" of rescued dogs:
AKC is the real, official registry used by responsible breeders, other registries are "knock-offs", invented so pet stores and puppy-mills and BYBs can sell "registered" dogs, as I understand it. The only reason you NEED to be registered is to compete in conformation, lure coursing, showing or agility to get championship points, or to start a breeding program yourself (after reaching those championship goals in some of the aforementioned activities).

If your basenji is "just" your pet, love of your life, best friend and roommate, having them registered isn't really important. Shelter rescue basenjis and many others in rescue don't have papers but are purebred basenjis. Once neutered it doesn't matter as you can get the ILP certification to compete in all activities except conformation.

The really important thing that hopefully comes with the AKC responsibly bred dog is health testing and healthy parents and grandparents. You probably won't have that with the knock-off registries, but you can do it yourself for your own peace of mind, especially the Fanconi testing. There really isn't much reason to do some of the other testing, as hopefully no one would breed a dog without that deep background knowledge of genetic health and soundness along with great conformation, the things that make a dog worthy of having their genes passed along. There are so many thousands of dogs, including basenjis, euthanized every year that need homes so there is no reason for anyone to breed dogs that aren't healthy and genetically sound!

Thank goodness there are responsible breeders that supply us with healthy pets and show dogs, and if ever the shelters empty out and there are more waiting homes than there are dogs, then the good breeders can pick up the pace! But I'm afraid that for the near future, there will be enough basenjis and other breeds supplied by BYB and shelters to fill all the available homes.

So enough of my soapbox, sorry, once I get going it's hard to stop. Love your dogs, register them with AKC or neuter them and get an ILP and go for some agility or Rally, obedience, or coursing, or just take long walks with your beloved basenjis and enjoy them for the unique 'people' they are!

Anne in Tampa

I sure hate to say this Anne but as far as I know, Puppy mills and Back Yard Breeders are Still Eligible to register litters and sell AKC dogs. There may be limitation on the number of litters by the AKC but unless things changed that I am unaware of, an AKC registered Dog is still an AKC registered Dog regardless of who bred it or where it came from. This certainly does not indicate that all AKC breeders are responsible breeders.

It appears that term Back Yard Breeder is used very loosely. I really think a solid definition of this needs to be posted as a Sticky in this forum. I think this is really a gray murky area because there are many small scale breeders that breed AKC registered dogs. Is the status of AKC registration enough to exclude someone from being called a Back Yard Breeder? I don't think so!

Jason

[tanza]

One comment I will make is that I think it is very, very important that if you have a Basenjis that can be registered with AKC that you do so. In fact, I pay and send in all the registations on any of my puppies. It is importand I think to the breed to have a record, a complete record of all breedings and all dogs produced.
ComicDom1 is correct, PuppyMills and BYB's can register AKC as long as they have paperwork AND… do the required DNA test for parentage when required for "frequent" breeders. Here is what AKC requires:
"Effective for litters whelped on or after July 1, 2000, AKC DNA Profiling is required if a stud dog is classified as a Frequently Used Sire, meaning that he has produced seven or more litters in his lifetime or more than three litters in a calendar year."
I only wish they had a requirement for bitches.
But you will find that responsible breeder DNA AKC test regardless.

And it is pretty hard to come up with a description of a BYB, IMO... but I do agree that just because they might use AKC doesn't make them responsible.

[ComicDom1]

@etzbseder:

Meandi, the AKC does open the stud books, very rarely, to new dogs such as what you're talking about. I believe the books have been open to imports brought out of Africa twice in the last 50 years, so it doesn't happen often, but with more well known breeds with more non-related dogs, the books are even open less often.

While what Michael has said is true, what I do not understand at all, is why the AKC does not open the books, on the case by case basis for Basenji's that are Fanconi free, and DNA tested to assure they are pure bred and genetically sound?

Also, I think the AKC could and should set some standard requiring that any breeder produce these heath records to be placed on file at the AKC on a periodic basis. Along with that the AKC's refusal to register Dog's of any Breed with indicated and confirmed health problems would be of great benefit. Unless I am wrong the AKC already requires all AKC registered dogs to be chipped. If not then this certainly would be a good and safe practice and new certified dogs could be included.

If the AKC is really dedicated to protecting the health and well being of all dogs, as well as the sport of purebred dog as they say in their published Mission statement then they certainly would not object to anything I have written here. If they do then one would certainly wonder about what AKC's underlying purpose really is and of those who support that organization.

If AKC Breeders are really responsible and care as much about the betterment of their breed, and the prevention of health issues of the breed or breeds as they claim, then why in the world would they have any objection to what I have proposed here?

While I certainly agree that not every AKC registered Basenji should not be bred unless they offer something for the betterment of the Breed, I would like to point out, that a process such as I described would add to the limited gene pool of healthy breeding stock. From what I understand, the reason the AKC books have been opened at all for imported African Basenji stock is because of a dwindling breeding stock of Basenji's related to health issues. Why not take the same advantage of certifying healthy Basenji's, that already exist in the US, that were previously unregisterable for one reason for the other. I find this scenario similar to people who want to adopt a child going to outside the US when there are plenty of children who need homes here!

I will admit that I am biased in my questions because I have beautiful Male Basenji puppy who has tested Fanconi Clear, has his Patella's checked, and I willing to do any testing necessary to satisfy the AKC. Although I know I can go to a responsible breeder and most likely obtain an AKC registered dog, it is a shame and a waste when a good quality dog becomes a genetic dead end simply because of paper work, when all the scientific ability exists to prove both Pure Bred Status and genetic soundness by DNA!

Miranda and I do have plans to neuter our dog after we feel he has reached maturity, we are still saddened by the genetic dead end that this represents.

Jason

[lvoss]

As a member of the BCOA Native Stock Committee and the person assigned to looking into the exsistence of DNA testing for proof of breed identity, I will say that at this time there is no DNA test in existence that can prove a dog is purebred. The current technology can tell if a dog shares markers in common with different known breeds of dogs but can not tell if that dog is purebred. The technology is just not there at this point in time.

Next, in the basenji breed there are currently only 2 hereditary disorders that have a DNA based test, those are Pyruvate Kinase Deficiency referred to as both PKD and HA, and Fanconi Syndrome. All other known inherited diseases in basenjis have health tests that should be done to determine the status of the parents but do not tell you the genetic make up of the dog. The best guidelines for breeders are published on the OFA website and have been shown to work very well when employed by breeders to decrease the incidence of genetic disease where no DNA test is available. These methods require both depth and breadth of health testing in the pedigree to make educated choices.

Honestly, I see no good reason for AKC to open their stud books up to dogs born in the US of US born parents that are "purebred" basenjis but are not of AKC registered parents. These dogs are not AKC registered because at some point in time some one decided they did not want them AKC registered and often that is because they broke AKC's rules which really are not there to ensure that the dogs are healthy but are there to ensure the integrity of AKC's parentage database. So any who has dogs that are not recent imports, that are not AKC registered really need to consider that though their dogs may be 100% basenji, some where back there someone didn't want to play by AKC's rules for whatever reason and one of those reasons might be that they didn't know the real parentage of a breeding.

Also, everyone really needs to remember that AKC is just a registering body. That is all, they do not in any way take into consideration health of the dogs being bred. All someone has to do is make sure both parents are AKC registered and that if they male is frequently used he is DNA tested, in order to register dogs with AKC.

Quality is determined by the standards of the breeder. It is up to the buyer to do their homework and learn what health tests are common in the breed they are considering, to learn about what socialization is required for a well adjusted puppy, and learn about what AKC, OFA, and other acronyms really mean. The quality of breeders is really a spectrum rather than a series of points. That is why it is difficult to come up with a clear cut definition of Responsible, BYB, Puppymill, etc.

Most define the basics of resposible to be
1. Will take back the puppy at any age for any reason
2. Sells pets on limited registration, requires spay/neuter of non breeding animals
3. Co-owns and mentors with any person who buys a show dog
4. Does the minimum health testing for the breed (this where some gray area comes in because different people are going to define this differently)
5. Socializes the puppies and is well versed in puppy development

There are probably more things but these are the ones that immediately come to mind.

[ComicDom1]

@lvoss:

As a member of the BCOA Native Stock Committee and the person assigned to looking into the exsistence of DNA testing for proof of breed identity, I will say that at this time there is no DNA test in existence that can prove a dog is purebred. The current technology can tell if a dog shares markers in common with different known breeds of dogs but can not tell if that dog is purebred. The technology is just not there at this point in time.

Next, in the basenji breed there are currently only 2 hereditary disorders that have a DNA based test, those are Pyruvate Kinase Deficiency referred to as both PKD and HA, and Fanconi Syndrome. All other known inherited diseases in basenjis have health tests that should be done to determine the status of the parents but do not tell you the genetic make up of the dog. The best guidelines for breeders are published on the OFA website and have been shown to work very well when employed by breeders to decrease the incidence of genetic disease where no DNA test is available. These methods require both depth and breadth of health testing in the pedigree to make educated choices.

Honestly, I see no good reason for AKC to open their stud books up to dogs born in the US of US born parents that are "purebred" basenjis but are not of AKC registered parents. These dogs are not AKC registered because at some point in time some one decided they did not want them AKC registered and often that is because they broke AKC's rules which really are not there to ensure that the dogs are healthy but are there to ensure the integrity of AKC's parentage database. So any who has dogs that are not recent imports, that are not AKC registered really need to consider that though their dogs may be 100% basenji, some where back there someone didn't want to play by AKC's rules for whatever reason and one of those reasons might be that they didn't know the real parentage of a breeding.

Also, everyone really needs to remember that AKC is just a registering body. That is all, they do not in any way take into consideration health of the dogs being bred. All someone has to do is make sure both parents are AKC registered and that if they male is frequently used he is DNA tested, in order to register dogs with AKC.

Quality is determined by the standards of the breeder. It is up to the buyer to do their homework and learn what health tests are common in the breed they are considering, to learn about what socialization is required for a well adjusted puppy, and learn about what AKC, OFA, and other acronyms really mean. The quality of breeders is really a spectrum rather than a series of points. That is why it is difficult to come up with a clear cut definition of Responsible, BYB, Puppymill, etc.

Most define the basics of resposible to be
1. Will take back the puppy at any age for any reason
2. Sells pets on limited registration, requires spay/neuter of non breeding animals
3. Co-owns and mentors with any person who buys a show dog
4. Does the minimum health testing for the breed (this where some gray area comes in because different people are going to define this differently)
5. Socializes the puppies and is well versed in puppy development

There are probably more things but these are the ones that immediately come to mind.

Ivoss,

If there is no DNA test in existence that can prove a dog is purebred and the current technology can only tell if a dog shares markers in common with different known breeds of dogs but can not tell if that dog is purebred, and if the technology is just not there at this point in time, then how are the imported African Basenji's that the AKC agreed to open their stud books for, any different than any other unregisted Basenji, that might already exist in the US? Certainly there are other breeds of dogs that exist in Africa.

Respectfully,
Jason

[lvoss]

The Native Stock Project's website is located at, http://www.basenji.org/NativeStock/ImportIndex.htm

All the information about the project is there including the process for applying and acceptance of Native Stock.

The big differences between Native Stock imported from Africa and an unregistered dog bred in the US is the isolation of the breeding population and new stock from Africa are new Founders. One factor that weighs heavily into the acceptance process is the provenance of the import. Does the BCOA Board and ultimately the BCOA membership feel that the dog not only looks and acts like a basenji but comes from an area isolated enough that there is a high likelihood that the dogs are pure basenji. Another difference is that any US born unregistered "basenji", does not really offer any new genes to our genepool because they come from the original founders of our breed. Dogs imported from isolated areas of Africa that are most likely to be purebred basenjis offer the breed new Founders which is a very significant and important difference, they represent truly new genes to the genepool not just a different combination of the same old genes.

[tanza]

I totally agree with lvoss… as stated any Basenji in the US has come from original stock included but certainly not limited to the very first Avongara Basenjis. And as lvoss also correctly stated, there are many other things to consider other then two DNA tests... and things that are only known by knowing the parents, grandparents, offspring and siblings. I can show anyone that would like to see... a wonderful Basenji with a great temperament... she was bred to a pretty strong dog and the resulting pups are of the sire's side of the pedigree. Had I not known that side of the pedigree (sire's side) and just continued to breed, I could have had produced pups with horrible temperaments... liken to the Basenjis of 40yrs ago. When you don't know what is back in the pedigree then you are breeding in the dark.. just because you have a "nice" dog, doesn't mean that is what it will produce... and that includes things like Hip problems, Thyroid problems, problems with bad bites to name a few.

And while the new imports are mostly in the same boat, they will be selectively bred to find out what possible problems there could be... on the other hand if bred to current Basenji stock, the health is known on that side.

[ComicDom1]

So basically one of the major factors considered when planning to import Basenji's from Africa was not based on an absolute, but an assumption of what would highly likely.

I think it is known, that statically there is a margin of error involved in any assumption that is highly likely. Animals have a tendency to go where the food is, so that does bring up other factors.

I am sure the BCOA is very aware of this and has researched it thoroughly.

Miranda and I can see that probably the most significant difference noted is that the Native stock imported from Africa are new founders and bringing some diversity to the gene pool.

While Miranda has been able to find a few companies that do DNA testing in an attempt to identify dog breeds, only one offered any quantification of specific breed makeup, and even this company only offered up to 75% confirmation with their existing test. Most likely there are others companies who's percentages might be different, that do similar testing we have yet to discover. Hopefully the confidence level of these tests will improve as time goes on and this issue can be revisited.

Jason

[ComicDom1]

@lvoss:

The Native Stock Project's website is located at, http://www.basenji.org/NativeStock/ImportIndex.htm

All the information about the project is there including the process for applying and acceptance of Native Stock.

The big differences between Native Stock imported from Africa and an unregistered dog bred in the US is the isolation of the breeding population and new stock from Africa are new Founders. One factor that weighs heavily into the acceptance process is the provenance of the import. Does the BCOA Board and ultimately the BCOA membership feel that the dog not only looks and acts like a basenji but comes from an area isolated enough that there is a high likelihood that the dogs are pure basenji. Another difference is that any US born unregistered "basenji", does not really offer any new genes to our genepool because they come from the original founders of our breed. Dogs imported from isolated areas of Africa that are most likely to be purebred basenjis offer the breed new Founders which is a very significant and important difference, they represent truly new genes to the genepool not just a different combination of the same old genes.

Is it possible that this answer could be made into a sticky?

Thanks
Jason

[lvoss]

Since we have sort of hi-jacked this thread, I have created a new one in the genetics section if people want to continue the discussion on Founders and Genetic Diversity, http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?p=50863#post50863

[brynn]

Hey Meandi,

I just hopped onto this discussion. My mom was considering breeding her chihuahua with one of her friend's dogs, just to make some extra money and to have puppies (everyone loves puppies!) and I sent her to this website which helped to change her mind (her dog is now altered, yay!). It's from a labrador breeder, but the idea behind it is still spot-on.

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/breeder2.html

Here is another one (not quite as snarky!) which I believe is from a Shiba Inu breeder

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/1867/breeding.html

This has a spot close to my heart, because the dog that we are fostering is from a backyard breeder (she was used as a puppy-maker). I know that if you were to breed you would treat your dog better than that, so please don't take offense. If you truly want to breed your dog, please research your dog's heritage, and find a responsible basenji breeder that could be your mentor. Learn, learn, learn as much as you can from them.

I hope this all doesn't sound mean but please be so careful. Are you ready to be there for all of the puppies you produce from cradle to grave? A responsible breeder is there for the owners throughout the lifetime of the puppies they produce. Many are willing to help train and show the puppies as well, free of charge. Those of us in rescue see so many purebred dogs coming through… It's just so sad. In my opinion (take it or leave it!) only the very best of the best dogs ought to be bred. As for all of the other dogs, there are so many dogs out there needing good homes, why add to the problem?