The vet can manipulate to see if something severe is wrong, but hips xrays need to wait til 6 mos (OFA) or (I think.. too tired to look) 4 mos.. oh heck I have to look..
"The PennHIP method can be reliably performed on a dog as young as 16 weeks old."
Pet Store Puppies - Problem
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i think often people buy puppies from such stores on an impulse. i have also found breeder websites, where you put in a credit card number and they ship you a dog. luckily for me, i have had enough experiences with basenjis that i was never even tempted to do so. another reason to buy from either is that basenjis are only in season once a year, and impulsive people do not want to wait. i think a good way to look at it is by "rescuing" that one dog from the pet store, you are helping to sentence another to a life of being a "breeding stock" at a puppy mill…it is so hard to keep those things in perspective when you are looking in those little brown eyes.
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But even those large chains usually sell some pets for profit – guinea pigs, hamsters, mice, birds, etc. It's hard to find one that doesn't sell some animal for profit.
you're absolutely right, and the fact that small animals such as those are sold at some large chains slipped my mind. Perhaps it doesn't bother me as much… or perhaps when I'm there I focus my attention elsewhere... who knows.
Thankfully I get my pets' food/supplies at a store that doesn't sell any live animals.
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I bought Zahra from a pet store. Okay, beat me up, I know that I should not have but my heart broke when I saw her the first time in the pet store and then over a month later saw that she was still there. No one seemed interested in her.
I knew all about puppy mills, I always said we would buy from a breeder, adopt from a shelter, etc.
We have been lucky with Zahra, she has only so far had Mange and behavior wise potty training her has been tough. Do I wish I would not have bought her? No. Do I wish I would have adopted her or got her from a breeder? YES, then I would not feel guilty about supporting puppy mills and about the Basenji breed being compromised by bad offspring for profit.
I had only had cats previously and had always adopted from the Humane Society, Animal Shelters, SPCA, etc. My last cat was adopted through a rescue that was at PetSmart, after 10 months and a lot of vet bills my cat was diagnosed with Leukemia and had to be put to sleep even though the rescue claimed to have done all the test (long story but it turns out that the rescue may not have been very reputable).
I too had always wondered, with the gut wrenching thought of what probably happens to pet store animals that are not adopted.
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<_>
I won't beat you up, I promise
We all love our dogs however we got them; I just want to people to make sure that they go into dog purchases/adoptions/whatever with their eyes wide open, so they can make an educated choice._ -
You know the one thing that I did not think about was the possibility that I would want to enter Zahra in Lure Coursing or other activities like that and when you buy from a pet store you can't do that because they are not AKC dogs, they are the pet store version of a kennel club, ACA. I am waiting to apply for the AKC waiver for Zahra once her coat clears up from the mange.
I think when you buy at the pet store you don't think about things like that you are thinking about how cute this dog is and how sorry you feel that it is stuck in that tiny cage behind the glass.
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Ok, so you guys don't like pet stores, well, I am glad I went into one or I wouldn't have been introduced to this wonderful breed. Yea, I paid too much, but what the heck, I would spend it somewhere else and not gotten the love I have gotten from this purchase. My Sahara could not be any better, she is just the sweetest thing. She is well mannered, and housebroken, which by the way was easy, and she loves everyone she sees. I don't understand how breeders don't make a profit on their puppies, they sell them don't they. If there was no profit I don't think there would be many breeders doing it, it is not easy I am sure. So, once again, I am glad I went into a pet store.:D
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<_>
I don't want to get into an argument about this. I clearly said I understand that everyone of us loves their dogs regardless of where they came from. But the huge majority of responsible breeders simply don't make a profit on a litter of basenji puppies. For one thing, responsible breeders spend hundreds of dollars on health tests for each of the their breeding dogs…some of which will never be bred because of the outcome of the tests. Most responsible breeders are involved in some sort of activity which tests the quality of the dog, either showing in conformation, or lure coursing for our breed...it can cost hundreds of dollars in entry fees to finish a dog's conformation championship. It can cost quite a bit of money to use a stud that complements a bitch in temperament, health and conformation....in addition to a stud fee, the owner of the stud usually gets a puppy back as well.
So to break it down: You pay $800 for show quality bitch; Health testing and vet care to raise a bitch from 8 weeks to 3 yrs, $300; Testing for hips, eyes and thyroid, $400; Showing to championship, not including travel, $250; Stud fee, $500; Pregnancy vet care $200. By my math, that adds up to about $2400. So your bitch has 4 puppies, you keep one, the stud owner gets one, that gives you two to sell, and likely pet in your area sell for about $600...so you earn $1200. About half of what you spent. And of course, you could breed your bitch again, and make up the other half of what you put into her...but I sure wouldn't call that turning a profit. Of course, your bitch might have six puppies instead of four...but then she might have one....or she might have a C-section and put you fovever in the money hole....._
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In the end, my problem with pet stores that sell dogs, isn't really about the money (though that is irritating). It is what puppy mills do to the dogs that they breed from...they are kept as domestic breeding stock, in pens...some more comfortable than others...but what kind of life is that for a dog? They don't get to socialize with other dogs, they don't get to feel sunshine, or a warm comfy bed.
And don't get me started on what they do to a breed. By disregarding health and temperament puppy-milling can turn a sweet, healthy breed into a nightmare.
Youngandtired says this:
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Well, you haven't met many basenji breeders then. Responsible breeders are stewards of the breed, not producers of it. Breeders have different reasons for breeding...but no one that I know (and I know MANY) are breeding for profit. We breed because we love the breed, and want to protect it.
I am glad you are happy with Sahara, and I am glad she has presented you with no problems, I hope it continues that way forever. You are very lucky -
Andrea is right, if you add up all of the costs of a responsibly bred litter it adds up pretty quickly. And she probably underestimated some of the costs. Right now, I am paying $108 per progesterone test to get the timing right for my planned litter since I have to get my girl to Arizona on time. So far we have done 3 tests and she hasn't ovulated yet. Then there is the stud fee to pay. On day 28 I do an ultrasound to confirm pregnancy that runs another $75. A few days before she is due I have her in for another check and x-ray to make sure that everything is going okay and so we know how many puppies to expect which runs another $100. Then within 48 hours of whelping the pups go in to have their dew claws removed, at my vet that costs $45 for the first puppy and $15 for every other one. I do eye exams on every one of my puppies before they go home, that is $35 per puppy, microchips are also $35 per puppy. 2 sets of puppy shots, which I can't remember exact costs but is about $45 for the visit and then the vaccine cost which is between $15-20 per puppy.
I have left out the cost of the supplies for whelping and cleaning up after the puppies. There is also all the food that a litter of puppies will go through. A responsible breeder does not breed to make profit, they breed because they love the breed and want puppy for themselves.
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Oh Geez! Yeah, I forgot all about the money that goes into the puppies before they go to their new homes! Thanks for pointing that out Lisa.
I did intentionally understimate a lot of the costs…I was doing it as if it were a "shoestring" breeding budget. But of course, lots of people do progesterone testing, and even artificial insemination and in vitro fertilization....very costly....not something you do to make more money...only for a love of the breed.
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Andrea is right. There is a huge responsibility involved in maintaining a healthy breed - not to mention all the money for all things mentioned by a breeder. Most people don't know it - I surely didn't know how much went into a breeder's litter of pups. However, dog show people do. I always thought dog show people bred for dog show people. Isn't that naive? (I'm not a dog show person
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I have to give Kudos to those who save the BYB/Puppymill dogs…the shelter dogs...but also those who take the time, love, patience, and money to show a dogs to their CH and ensure all the dogs have their health tests done and cleared before they breed them.
I know that I am trying to be one of the latter with my two. I really hope I help the breed in the future.
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I'd love to introduce Hollie to lure coursing. As most b's she loves to run. However Hollie is a mix and can't compete. I love her anyway and take her to run at the dog park and anywhere else that is fenced in an secure. Being whippet and basenji she is a huge fan of running.
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I just came upon this web site, while looking at Black Dog Ware online . . . Can't believe it - Coincidence?
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006607120384
It's about Pet Store Puppies and reasons not to buy. OMG!!
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I opened this can, but that's Ok. Yes, I am blessed with my purchase from a pet store. I really expected a response on this issue, and I am not going to argue about it either. I am not a breeder, and I expected breeders on this subject to give their opinion, future breeders as well. To be honest I will probably buy my next B from a breeder b/c concerns that have become clear to me about puppy mills. But the fact remains if that pet store had not been there I would know nothing about this breed.
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Surprised Sharon hasn't chimed in on this yet - as a BRAT Rescue Coordinator, she has undoubtedly seen many many puppy mill dogs. I remember just a couple of years ago here in Fresno a puppy mill was closed down - our vet, who owns one of our Basenjis, took 2 of the dogs to foster. They were a mother/daughter pair. The mother had been bred several times and when they were rescued, both dogs were living in a 200 size Vari-Kennel which had about 10 inches of compacted feces in the bottom, making even less space for them. They took weeks to learn to walk properly. They had never been in a house, were terrified of people, and didn't even know how to eat from a dog dish - apparently what food they got was just tossed into the crate on top of the poop. Fortunately, dogs, even Basenjis, are incredibly forgiving of humans. The mother was adopted, and our vet kept the younger girl. They are both doing well now, but they definitely don't have the same irreverent, happy attitude of Basenjis from healthy loving homes.
We had a miniature poodle from a pet shop before our Basenjis. I know where Jill is coming from when she says she thought dog show people bred for dog show people. We thought similarly - we thought if you wanted a show dog or a breeding dog you went to a breeder, if you wanted a pet, of course you went to a pet store! We learned. And another part of being a breeder is educating everyone you know about why buying from a breeder is a better idea.
Terry
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Youngandtired - your posts keep it interesting and you bring up a valid point. You found Sahara and this amazing breed. When I discovered that Duke was a Basenji, I was at first worried, but I understood him better and realized how blessed I am for taking an abandoned puppy home. He was a day away from going to the Humane Society. Basenji's are one cool breed.
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Terry, I agree, puppymills and pet stores contribute a large number of dogs to rescue. Because pet stores are really relying on that impulse buy of that "cute" puppy, people get dogs without knowing anything about the breed. For some people this works out and both the person and dog are happy but there are far too many instances where after that "Oh how cute" feeling wears off the person is frustrated by behaviors that are natural to the breed and with no continuing support finally decide to get rid of the dog. For some that decision comes fairly quickly, I have seen several listing on rescue sites around "puppy season" for pet store puppies given up by their owners in the first 3-4 weeks when they realize that basenjis are an active breed in need of more attention and exercise than they are able to provide. More heartbreaking are the ones that the owners throw in the backyard for a couple of years and only see for feeding before they decide that it is unfair for the dog and decide to give it up.
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When I saw my Sahara in the pet store, I asked questions about the breed. They were very helpful and had a large book on dog breeds and what to expect. I remember reading that B could be hard to housebreak, (they did it by giving stars, only 3 stars here.) It also stated that B were stubborn and some do not get along with other B or other house dogs. In fact, I mentioned to my son that maybe this breed was not for me, b/c I had once had a toy poodle that I could not housebreak and I didn't want to go through that again. He of course talked right over that point and said that now that I don't work it would be easier, and by Golly, he was right. Sahara is fully housebroken, and it wasn't that hard, but she is still STUBBORN. haha:D
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I have no idea what is wrong, have tried to post 3 times and I either get "forbidden" notes or it hangs up. SOOOO if this appears a few times, I am sorry… trying again
