Basenji and Grudges

[eeeefarm]

It's unusual to experience a delay when you accidentally hurt them. I find retaliation is usually instant, as you expected, and I also find if I apologize the animal (horses as well as dogs) understands that it was unintentional, at least that has always been my experience. A grudge is a bit different, and usually relates to them being denied something they want, or them being displeased by your behaviour, rather than as a result of an inadvertent infliction of pain. The snarl I do understand. He was feeling a threat from your tone, and coming off of the hurt to his foot, he felt the need to warn you not to do that again! I find Basenjis generally will resent being told what to do, and if they feel they are in the right that is when the snarls and snarks happen! Back in the day, I used to order my girl to her crate when I was displeased with her. She would go, but grumbling and growling (doggie swearing?) all the way!

[Buddys Pal]

Well, he did not feel threatened as my back was turned. I was calm too. the delay was almost comical as I thought of it, but that it seemed like he actually thought about it, was a little worrysome. I actually did not yell at him, but looked his way, pointed a finger and like I've done in the past just said "uh oh buddy, don't ever try that again!!!" Later that hour, I went over to him, called him, he came, lowered his head and allowed me to scrunch his face that he enjoys…..we made up. but I still have the black and blue marks!
Yeah, he doggie swears when I scoop him up, but never has bitten. He turns 5 next week, long way to go! PS: got a little 11 week old girl, she will be the boss in a few months as I noted she is smart, smart and canine savvy already---marks the front lawn in spots. still crating the little darlin' while she is in the house for a few more weeks!

[eeeefarm]

@Buddys:

I still have the black and blue marks!
Yeah, he doggie swears when I scoop him up, but never has bitten.

I can have a problem with transferred aggression with my guy. He dislikes other dogs, particularly ones that lunge and bark at him when we are out walking. He goes over threshold and I have to be careful to keep my anatomy out of his reach under those circumstances. When I had my two girls, in similar circumstances they would attack each other! When you can't bite the one you want to bite, bite the one you're with!

If I pick Perry up when he is comfortable, he will snark and sometimes grab at my hand. He doesn't bite down, however. I usually just ask him if he's sure he wants to do that, and he quits. I don't like to tempt fate, so I try to be diplomatic most of the time.

[Buddys Pal]

Yep, we have and love Basenji! same, same here too! I hope to be at least as half as smart soon! "When you can't bite the one you want to bite, bite the one you're with! " love it!!!!

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

@eeeefarm:

I can have a problem with transferred aggression with my guy. He dislikes other dogs, particularly ones that lunge and bark at him when we are out walking. He goes over threshold and I have to be careful to keep my anatomy out of his reach under those circumstances. When I had my two girls, in similar circumstances they would attack each other! When you can't bite the one you want to bite, bite the one you're with!

If I pick Perry up when he is comfortable, he will snark and sometimes grab at my hand. He doesn't bite down, however. I usually just ask him if he's sure he wants to do that, and he quits. I don't like to tempt fate, so I try to be diplomatic most of the time.

Based on what we have seen posted in the past and accepted as humane training by some, we are surprised that you did not use an electric shock collar to correct this unwanted behavior.

Now for a more intelligent and serious approach!

In our opinion, there are certainly territorial and pack issues going on. If you have owned multiple dogs or show dogs then you will understand what we are about to post. When one or more of the pack member/s leave the normal area of the house/home then it disrupts or changes the order in the pack. The hierarchy in the pack also changes when the pack member/s return to the home/house as the members will attempt to re-establish their positions within the hierarchy. This can also affect the pack members who never left because they feel the affects of any change and a need to re-assert themselves and their positions.

Is the the Dog that out of control that you have to pick him up? If so maybe there is more of an issue there then you are addressing and maybe picking up that dog when it surfaces and allowing the behavior to continue is just re-enforcement of undesirable behavior. Is your dog on leash when this is happening or is your dog running free?

[eeeefarm]

@TwinDogsDifferentMothers:

Based on what we have seen posted in the past and accepted as humane training by some, we are surprised that you did not use an electric shock collar to correct this unwanted behavior.

How nice to see you back on the forum. Your amazing insight has been sorely missed! If you have actually read anything I have posted regarding electric collars, you would know I use one to ensure my dog's safety when off leash, nothing more. I was not seeking training advice on this thread, but simply sharing some anecdotes about Basenji behaviour.

[tanza]

And I do not believe that any dog "holds a grudge" that is humans putting our emotions/feelings to an animal… period

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

@eeeefarm:

How nice to see you back on the forum. Your amazing insight has been sorely missed! If you have actually read anything I have posted regarding electric collars, you would know I use one to ensure my dog's safety when off leash, nothing more. I was not seeking training advice on this thread, but simply sharing some anecdotes about Basenji behaviour.

What makes you believe we have been off the forum? We are glad you like and value our insight. From what we read this post was about the experience that another person had when they went on vacation and came home and accidentally stepped on a dogs paw. At least that is what we saw at the beginning of these posts.

Several posts down, we see that you now it has become about how your dog loses control and is pushed past (as you described it) over threshold. We guess that means out of control or something. Then you go on and mention two female dogs you owned previously and make a joke of them biting each other.

We are sorry, but we fail to see what all of that has to do with the purpose of the original post. That is why we responded as we did. We agree with the assessment that Tanza has made. That humans put their emotions or project them emotions/feelings to an amimal.

We stand by our response in regard to the behavior you posted in regard to your own dogs Perry's Behavior. We also stand by what we mentioned as far as pack animal behavior that takes place when several dogs/bitches reside within the same home/house. If you did not want that behavior commented on, then why did you post it? As we mentioned it was not relevant to the original post, but when you post behaviors such as what you described in a chat forum, you know as well as we do, that you open them up for comments.

As to how and what you use your electronic shock collar for, as far as we know you have used to to train your dog so you did not have to walk him on a leash and now you also claim you use it for safety purposes. Since none of us are there to see how you use it, there really is not point in disputing it, so its a moot point. You have your view and others have their views.

[eeeefarm]

O.K. not feeding this anymore. Putting you on ignore. Go fight with someone else.

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

@eeeefarm:

O.K. not feeding this anymore. Putting you on ignore. Go fight with someone else.

We had no idea we were fighting, but then maybe this is just a good example of you projecting you emotions on someone else which is very similar to what Tanza had stated in her opinion that humans do to their dogs. To the original poster of the thread, we hope that your black and blue marks get better soon. We know that our Basenji's are not fond of getting their feet stepped on either. So have things pretty much returned to normal for you now that you are home and back in the pack?

[eeeefarm]

@tanza:

And I do not believe that any dog "holds a grudge" that is humans putting our emotions/feelings to an animal… period

Certainly that is the perceived wisdom, but what's interesting is that research indicates we may not know as much as we think we do about their emotions. The study that was done in Austria a few years ago seems to indicate that dogs understand fairness, and react when another dog receives a reward for a trick when they do not. Dogs appear to have good memories, particularly for things they dislike, so who is to say they are incapable of holding grudges? It's always possible to find other explanations for behaviour, but not so very long ago, it was believed human infants didn't feel pain! Seems incredible now, but there you are. (I think it would be hard to convince most cat owners that animals are incapable of spite!)

[Buddys Pal]

@tanza:

And I do not believe that any dog "holds a grudge" that is humans putting our emotions/feelings to an animal… period

LOL! Tanza, this thread was just kind of a funny anecdote…. we all know b's are special! :)! I thought that too, and dogs are not 'wired' with that emotion but Basenji are truly different, no? Yes, of course they are!! The love of my life has returned to his 'normal' B self! actually is very attentive, loving, and actually is obeying me more! recall is faster too! We have put it in the past!_
Maybe I should step on his toes more often! HA HA HA!!!!!
I think having Jaydie here is mellowing him out too.
_

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

@Buddys:

LOL! Tanza, this thread was just kind of a funny anecdote…. we all know b's are special! :)! I thought that too, and dogs are not 'wired' with that emotion but Basenji are truly different, no? Yes, of course they are!! The love of my life has returned to his 'normal' B self! actually is very attentive, loving, and actually is obeying me more! recall is faster too! We have put it in the past!_
Maybe I should step on his toes more often! HA HA HA!!!!!
I think having Jaydie here is mellowing him out too.

Buddys Pal, we are certainly glad to read that and very happy for you. We personally have a lot of respect for Tanza. From what we have found out, Tanza has many years of experience in the Basenji world, breeding, showing, training, and finishing champions. This is not just in the show ring but in other competitions as well. For us this speaks volumes and means that Tanza is a very valuable resource inside this forum and out. From what we understand her experience comes from years of real time hands on with the dogs and not just some article she read somewhere online or elsewhere.

We did not know of Tanza prior to joining the forum but have learned of her outside of it. We have grown to respect her and her accomplishments. This includes what she has posted in the forum in discussion, and we have learned from her wisdom within it. We certainly do not want to get accused of putting her up on a pedestal but we do put a lot of stock in her words and advice. This is especially true when it comes to forum discussions regarding Basenji Breeding, Behavior, and training methods. If we were seeking advice in regard to Basenjis, Tanza would be one of the first if not the first people on our list we would seek out._

[eeeefarm]

Interesting article on animals and emotions: http://www.newworldlibrary.com/ArticleDetails/tabid/230/ArticleID/15/Default.aspx

"No matter what we call it, researchers agree that animals and humans share many traits including emotions. Thus, we’re not inserting something human into animals, but we’re identifying commonalities and then using human language to communicate what we observe. Being anthropomorphic is doing what’s natural and necessary to understand animal emotions."

[Buddys Pal]

Hey eeeefarm, read that article you shared via link…..very interesting and enlightening! when one reads about spindle cells and the amygdala, one has to consider emotions to some degree in animals across the board! don't know about trees etc....???? 'nother forum ????