OMG, hysteria rises again.
Ah yes, anyone who disagrees with e-collars is hysterical–- never mind research. Never mind that in many countries they are ILLEGAL and OMG... hope you are sitting down, really, THEY SURVIVE and have kept on working and training without them. OMG. I know, reality bites.
Sorry folks, I am done with the thread. Breeds with no testing, thinks that he is above reproach or can withstand any scrutiny as if it is just fine, trains with shock collar then claims POSITIVE TRAINING methods. Sometimes you just gotta walk away.
Although I never used those collars, I don't find it animal abuse to use them if used in a correct way. Even better then those citronelle collars (wich I think should be illegal and will 'hurt' the dog more then an e-collar). If you need to work with a dog off-leash, at greater distances, it is simply the best, quickest and safest way to do so. You don't have to scare the hell out of them by using them, you can adjust them so that you can give really subtle corrections, both with a light shock or a sound. And if used correctly, a shock should be rarely given. I even know people who kind of use them as a clicker, both with sound or with a little tickle. Not unpleasant for the dog, and works even the dog is 300meters away from you.
Little help from a moderator here? This is becoming a little psycho now.
I know this is a controversial subject for a lot of people. However, from my own experience I have to conclude that e-collars are perfectly fine when used correctly. How many threads do we see on here about "door darting" and "escape artist" Basenjis that are impossible to easily catch if they accidentally get loose? How often is the advice given that you can't trust a Basenji off leash? My guy is infinitely safer because he is used to being off leash. When I have a "senior moment" (happens more frequently than I would like these days) and open the door for him without remembering his collar, he doesn't get all excited at his "freedom" because he is out loose 4 or 5 times every day. I just say "Perry, you forgot your collar" and he comes back so I can put it on. No drama, no adrenaline, and no escaped Basenji running down the road. He does not fear the collar, and he does not fear me. The rare occasions when he earns a rather stern correction (yes, it can produce a yelp of surprise and/or pain, I won't deny that), he isn't perturbed because the sensation is brief and it is over, and most of all, he knows why. Like my horses with their electric fence, he understands that his actions control the collar.
I do think that e-collars shouldn't be sold over the counter. I think a person should be required to take appropriate training before ever using one, because there certainly is room for abuse. But research has shown that a consistent, predictable cause and effect is not stressful to the animal. OTOH, inconsistency, regardless of the training method employed (yes, even "positive" methods) is very stressful, because the animal never knows where it stands. Anything can be abused. IMHO, too much crate time is the biggest issue for today's dogs that are left alone all day long while their owners are at work. Psychologically, this is a terrible fate for a pack animal…..
While I am not going to comment or get into the whole e-collar discussion and my personal opinion is that I would not use this, I will make one point. Electric fence for livestock, be it horse, sheep, cattle is way different then a collar around a dogs neck with the human doing the shocking. And yes, I have used electric fence for not only horses but for Basenjis too when faced with chain link fence or even solid fence fighting. And I would use electric fencing for this purpose. I would not use E-Collar for any training method. But again, that is my choice.
Add to this the idea of using invisable fencing, which I would never use nor would I ever sell a pup that might be put in this situation. Again, my choice
As far as health testing before breeding, as I have stated more then just a few times, this needs to be done before breeding, not after. Again, IMO… and one that I have always done. The only time this might be an "after thought" would be if there was an "opps" litter. And even responsible breeders can have this happen. Knock on wood, I have not had this happen, but I certain know it does and can happen to the best of breeders.
I have to say I appreciate a few sane people on my topic of a working line of basenjis. Somehow, it digressed into personal attacks on me by a person who I do not even know…..I suppose that is the nature of Internet forums where it is safe to be rude and pedantic while hiding behind a keyboard. I have tried to be nice and on topic, even appealing to administrators of this forum to intervene, unfortunately, to no avail.
This side topic was not why I posted here but I will give you all my thoughts one time. E-collars are one of the best tools on the planet for those who want to give their dogs freedom. My dogs are very sane and get along with everything primarily due to their freedom. The e-collar allows for that. If I pull a collar off the wall, my B's are jumping all over me trying to be first to get theirs on. Why? Because it means play time and tons of freedom. On the other hand, I see tons of dogs daily with no control who spend their lives behind doors or with all kinds of contraptions on that they hate and that make them crazy; reactive, neurotic beasts. IMO, this is how one kills their wonderfully wild companions with what they think is kindness.
I also want to back up what another wrote that most working dog trainers use e-collars. That is the absolute truth. They do it because they work well an produce better dogs. I train dogs for life and death situations every day as do my peers. We all use e-collars. The woman who criticized me so badly is not a working dog trainer or handler and never was. She does not know what she is talking about and is simply working off a knee jerk reaction to an emotional issue she created.
Now back to my topic. We produce great working dogs, perhaps some of the best in the country . Stay tuned if you want to learn more about the basenji component.
Jeff
On topic question to the professional breeders. We are trying to do the right thing and had planned a full battery of tests before breeding but timing was off and it happened. We did get Fancini an had plans for cerf, and penn hip. Now it is after the fact and we plan on getting all tests for kaden and what is possible for Phoenix. Recommendations would be appreciated. Please no nasty comments. Thank you in advance.
On topic question to the professional breeders. We are trying to do the right thing and had planned a full battery of tests before breeding but timing was off and it happened. We did get Fancini an had plans for cerf, and penn hip. Now it is after the fact and we plan on getting all tests for kaden and what is possible for Phoenix. Recommendations would be appreciated. Please no nasty comments. Thank you in advance.
Again, I am not going to comment on your training procedures… while I would not use them... I do not have working field dogs, so there will always be a difference there.
As far as testing, important IMO is the direct Fanconi test for sure, CERF eye exams, hips from OFA (if you use Penn Hip, posting the results since they are not available via a website to check. Thyroid testing, and certainly for a working dog, elbow OFA, Patella testing, and I would think heart testing. I am not a big fan of Penn hip, but either OFA or Penn Hip would be a must. All should be done for both the sire and dam. And since your pups will be working dogs, I would think that hips, eyes, elbow, and patellas would be very important along with their natual ability when grading the litter.
Let me add that I don't know of any responsible breeders that would be or consider themselves "professional" breeders... we are all hobby breeders, just wanting to improve the breed, we are not in it to make a profit. So my response to health testing is from a hobby breeders prospective, not from someone that wants or thinks they will make a profit from any puppies. Cover my cost, sure... does that happen? Not very often.
On the other hand, I see tons of dogs daily with no control who spend their lives behind doors or with all kinds of contraptions on that they hate and that make them crazy; reactive, neurotic beasts. IMO, this is how one kills their wonderfully wild companions with what they think is kindness.
I also want to back up what another wrote that most working dog trainers use e-collars. That is the absolute truth. They do it because they work well an produce better dogs.
A rather gross generalization, IMO.
Then to compare those who train using shock collars as having better, less neurotic dogs then those who do absolutely nothing with their dogs, is a bit of smoke and mirrors.
Any dog doing something mentally or physically stimulating other than being locked behind closed doors will be a better companion irregardless of whether or not a shock collar is being used.
Interesting that Native Africans do not use shock collars on their native dogs and yet work in a collaborative way with each other. In fact, I would hazard a guess there are numerous pariah dogs through out the world who do similar, without need of such a training aid; to imply one must use a shock collar to get results seems to be a validating statement only.
I agree with Debra, I have always felt shock collars to be a lazy mans way to get quick results, without a lot of effort. I know that is what I used mine for, when once upon a time my first basenjis wore shock collars. Not to train but to use in the same manner eeeefarms uses hers, to be able to go out into the desert and allow them the freedom they desired, while getting an instant recall.
As my training got better, the less I needed to rely on a shock collar - I don't think I have used one in 8-9(?) years and my current 5 basenjis (of which only two have ever seen a shock collar in their lifetime) run off leash, all the time.
As an aside, I shocked myself first before subjecting my dog to it and while the lowest setting is unpleasant, I can not imagine it to be very effective on certain, driven dogs; the higher level of shock needed, I personally found to be very uncomfortable and quite painful and thankfully not something I feel is necessary any longer for my dogs.
I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of creating real working basenjis in the true sense of the word if they can not work without artificial training devices encouraging them to do so or stifling their natural desires.
I find it interesting too your working dogs come from show stock, just as my highly driven and very successful performance dogs. It would seem anyone with the desire and the knowledge can turn any basenji into the working, performance or hunting dog they want - just as you and I did, so I have to wonder if this is just a marketing ploy vs. having any real meaning.
I guess that is why I have never marketed my line as a performance line, despite being on my third generation of multiple titled (and therefore proven) basenjis.
Sure, as a breeder and trainer, I can help start puppies in the right direction prior to placement, just as you can perhaps pick the best potential for working, but in the end if the owners do not have the skills or the desires we both have, no matter what line the dog came from, it will be nothing more than a loved pet or perhaps a neurotic dog as they try to use shock collars to obtain the results you have been able to obtain through years of experience.
As stated you have done the bare minimum of health testing; this lack of testing would have normally sent the forum wolves nipping at your heels but for some reason, everyone is keeping quiet?!
My hat is off to Debra for asking the hard questions and/or bringing it out in the open that perhaps the training methods on your website are not the only training methods you utilize. Or that more health testing would have been the responsible thing to do. Good on you for saying you will do further testing, I can not wait to hear the results. I hope for all your puppy people the results are favorable!
Having seen Debra in action more than once on this forum, her posts to you were quite benign, IMO and she seems to have legitimate concerns, which should be stated for any newbie considering your litter.
I do not think her intention is to single you out but to help educate those people coming to this forum and looking for their next basenji. And just because she does not agree with you, does not mean her sanity is questionable.
Good luck with your pups. I hope you get all that you desire in this breeding.
Linda, your email is a gross mischaracterization and an example of your lack of experience and information. Training and working dogs in the US and in Africa are apples and oranges. You also make it appear as if the collars might be readily available there and that there is a choice in the matter. And if they were readily available there, they would probably be readily used, too. Perhaps money might have something to do with it.
You also describe cheap, poorly engineered collars if a low setting was "unpleasant". Good quality collars are imperceptible at a low setting. I would be loathe to use what you did and never recommend them. However, this is a normal mistake for pet owners. I am getting off this collar kick because it is not relevant here and was only brought up to malign me. It did not exist in my original post. If you or Debra would like to publically debate the use of collars openly and without hiding behind a computer screen, I will gladly meet you in any forum with a boatload of video and real data.
As for Debra, it is her manner and tactics that are questionable at minimum. She was incredibly rude and You just choose to ignore that. Supporting those tactics I also find offensive. There is a way to do things rationally and in a manner that is civil. These forums allow people to be unbalanced and easily get away with it…something that would be rare in a normal public setting.
You choose to mischaracterize me here perhaps not in the same fashion but it is still wrong. The bulk of what I wrote about is ignored and you simply choose to capitalize on those things that you want to attack. If you were truly helpful, you might have addressed my question. Thank you for all of your help.
I have often heard of "snarky" basenjis....the term more aptly describes their owners at times. It may also be where the behavior comes from.
Thanks Pat, that was helpful….my issue is Phoenix after the fact. What tests can be done reliably now? Kaden is the easy one. This took us by surprise and we were not completely prepared. We usually use PennHip for ours GSD's and hounds feeling that they are actually more accurate. We will probably stay with it. Both dogs have all preliminary work done and they are very strong and healthy. We mean to finalize it now the best we can.
OMG, hysteria rises again.
Little help from a moderator here? This is becoming a little psycho now.
I have to say I appreciate a few sane people on my topic of a working line of basenjis. Somehow, it digressed into personal attacks on me by a person who I do not even know…..I suppose that is the nature of Internet forums where it is safe to be rude and pedantic while hiding behind a keyboard.
**We produce great working dogs, perhaps some of the best in the country . Stay tuned if you want to learn more about the basenji component.
**
Jeff
Linda, your email is a gross mischaracterization and an example of your lack of experience and information.
She was incredibly rude and You just choose to ignore that. Supporting those tactics I also find offensive. There is a way to do things rationally and in a manner that is civil. These forums allow people to be unbalancedI have often heard of "snarky" basenjis….the term more aptly describes their owners at times. It may also be where the behavior comes from.
You made snide comments, say people are psycho when NOTHING about you personally but simply about your lack of doing RESPONSIBLE TESTING and opinions on e-collars (and your site misinformation stating POSITIVE training)… and then cry for the wambulance (moderator) when you have been more personally attacking than anyone. If someone disagrees with you, they are hysterical, attacking and all sorts of things. If you are snide and make personal digs, it's fine. My comments were on topic-- you are the one making personal attacks. And I hide behind nothing. I am not a made up persona, I am a real person who others have met. If you are delusional enough to think I wouldn't say exactly to your face what I am saying here, you obviously haven't talked about me to anyone who knows me. I may be a lot of things, but you can be sure I am neither a coward hiding behind a keyboard.
Curious... how many great working dogs have you produced? Their names/titles please? Not sure why you think folks here need to pull up a crate to be educated by you about "the basenji component" (whatever that means).
Now really done. When legit questions are met with attacks, beyond time to move on.
Again the tone and tenor of your post is indicative of your rudeness. I am sorry you are so bitter. You simply want to say anything you can to get a reaction. You are also trying to guide anyone who will listen to you away without knowing much at all. You did this with your second or third post when I had answered really nothng other than to say it was nice to meet you and please come by to vist. The disagreement was primarily from others who made their own comments. The difference is they were trying to explain what they thought while you do nothing more than shooting off a fulisade and try to embarrass people. Trying to rationalize this with you will never work so I will not try anymore. I will not submit to your attacks and simply go silent, however.
For anyone who would like to see our working dogs, please go to our web site. Also, none are show dogs. A championship title does not make a working dog and I do not know any police or military handler that shows theirs. Not to say there are none. And the statement is made simply to explain why there are no CH titles with our dogs and probably never will be. Lastly we are not breeders and this is the only one. We buy 7 week old pups, raise and train them, for police, DoD, SAR, and service for disabilities. We buy our dogs from breeders that have proven lines of working dogs. Our working dogs are primarily GSD's, Malinois, Bloodhounds, Goldens, and Labs. The only working Basenjis are our own but we have been trying to do this with my favorite breed for a few years. I have tested several B's over the years from some great breeders with show lines, but searching for work traits. This is how we obtained what we have. Our female basenji, Phoenix, is the product of that work. We realized if this was to move forward, we needed something more and looked into newer African blood. We will never be a breeding facility. Lastly, anyone really interested in seeing what we do may visit our facility. We do really good work and our dogs help to make and save lives every day.
And more personal attacks. Well when you can't argue points and facts, attacking people might cause the weak-minded to forget the real issues and focus on the personal slurs.
Thanks Pat, that was helpful….my issue is Phoenix after the fact. What tests can be done reliably now? Kaden is the easy one. This took us by surprise and we were not completely prepared. We usually use PennHip for ours GSD's and hounds feeling that they are actually more accurate. We will probably stay with it. Both dogs have all preliminary work done and they are very strong and healthy. We mean to finalize it now the best we can.
Since the bitch is with pups, hips (I believe that PennHip would carry the same concerns as OFA Hips on a bitch that is in whelp) and thyroid need to wait 4 or 5 months, IMO. CERF exams can be done now, however
Thank you for the advice, Pat. It is meaningful and appreciated.
Jeff
(and your site misinformation stating POSITIVE training)
There is unfortunately a lot of confusion about the term "positive" in regards to training. As I expect you know, although others might not, in the operant conditioning vocabulary there is no judgement attached to the terms "positive" and "negative", but only a referral as to whether something is added or taken away. Positive can mean either positive reinforcement or positive punishment. (something added to increase the likelihood of a behavior, something added to decrease the likelihood of a behaviour, respectively.) Some training methods employ both, and many "positive" trainers use negative punishment, although they like to say they don't use punishment at all. This could be considered misleading to someone who doesn't agree with punishment in any form. It can be difficult to assess what is actually being done by simply reading someone's site info. Most people are going to look into it further if they are interested, but I wouldn't consider the term "positive" to be misleading. Confusion results when people don't adequately understand the terminology.
Since the bitch is with pups, hips (I believe that PennHip would carry the same concerns as OFA Hips on a bitch that is in whelp) and thyroid need to wait 4 or 5 months, IMO. CERF exams can be done now, however
Given it's after the fact, might as well wait and CERF the dam when he does the puppies.
Given it's after the fact, might as well wait and CERF the dam when he does the puppies.
Good point Clay.
Training and working dogs in the US and in Africa are apples and oranges. You also make it appear as if the collars might be readily available there and that there is a choice in the matter. And if they were readily available there, they would probably be readily used, too.
Dogs are dogs, be it in US, Africa or Timbuktu. What humans want/expect from their dogs might be what differentiates us, as does the means in which we attain it. Somehow I have doubts natives would ever have need or desire to use a shock collar, except perhaps on each other. ;o)
I certainly can not see the need to fix something that has seemingly been working for hundreds of years and that something is the ability to work and hunt alongside their canine counterpart, without need of any artificial aid - sans a gourd bell around their neck or groin. If it can work for them, surely it can work for any one of us. And no, I am under no grand delusions they click/treat train their dogs or do not use correction based/physical means but for you to imply, Jeff that a shock collar is the only way to get the best out of a dog, makes me pause and think - how is it native populaces, without the benefits higher westernized education/training methods, can find a way to work alongside their dogs and we say its near impossible?
And really - the whole point being - native people do NOT have a choice, therefore they must find a way to be successful, which is much harder IMO, then slapping on a shock collar and compelling a dog to do ones bidding.
In truth I am not too interested in the use, or non use, of shock collars and certainly my post was not attacking, only musing my thoughts aloud while supporting Debra after your implication that a dissenting opinion must mean she/we are hysterical, insane, inexperienced and uneducated, of which we are none of the above.
Until such time they become illegal, shock collars are a personal choice best left up to (I hope) a trained individual and their dog. I have tried it, it is not for me, or my dogs, and I am still able to work my dogs and give them plenty of unrestrained freedom.
You also describe cheap, poorly engineered collars if a low setting was "unpleasant". Good quality collars are imperceptible at a low setting. I would be loathe to use what you did and never recommend them. However, this is a normal mistake for pet owners.
Gosh, I should hope I am a bit above the average pet person. ;O) That said - please do not tell my ex-husband his several thousand dollar investment for the e-collar and the intensive professional training was cheap! If he had known I could go to Petsmart, buy a $100 Innotek and learn for myself, he would flip a switch, even now.
The bulk of what I wrote about is ignored and you simply choose to capitalize on those things that you want to attack. If you were truly helpful, you might have addressed my question. Thank you for all of your help.
The bulk of what you wrote was discussing your working line of basenjis, a "line" of dogs that comes from show stock (ie non "working" basenjis) as a means of promoting your upcoming litter. I addressed what I felt about this; I felt the emphasis on showcasing a unique "working line" of basenjis is perhaps (yes? no?) a means to market them to hopeful buyers vs any real validity since they originate out of non-working show stock; to mean any breeder can produce a working, hunting, performing, social dog in the hands of a skilled and determined owner so really - is there a need for a distinct working line in our breed? A performance line? A coursing line? *I am not convinced there is.
I would worry puppy buyers might end up with expectations their basenjis will respond similarly to yours with very little effort or foundation, all based on behaviors they see in your dogs, obtained via the e-collar. When their basenji does not respond to their naive attempts at training and they turn to the e-collar for help and the dog does not respond as expected; i.e. they shut down, become hyper-vigilant, reactive/aggressive or quake in fear waiting for the next shoe to drop - then what?
I am certainly not saying your dogs react this way, but I have seen enough after effects of e-collar work (from novices to professionals) to know this can be an offshoot problem and that does concern me especially since you do seem to promote more of a positive/reward based technique/spin on your website which folks might assume you primarily use on your dogs to get the results you have.
Now then - if you were to fully train your basenjis and sell them as trained, working, adult dogs - that would be different as the buyer would be getting exactly what you are advertising and it would be up to them to maintain the dog at that level or to allow it to regress.
As for addressing your question re: what you should have tested for - this is your second litter Jeff, shouldn't you already know what you should have tested for?
Per the OFA you started out great with Axel - getting his CHIC (fanconi, hips, eyes, elbows, patellas and thyroid), then you kind of fell behind the eight ball with Aru (eyes and fanconi only prior to her litter) then even less with Kaden and Phoenix (fanconi only (at this time) for their litter).
I think starting with the tests you did with Axel prior to his litter would be a good start.
Now of course, with the DNA fanconi test available, ALL breeding/foundation animals - regardless of what their probable status was - should be re-tested so that is something else that should be done or perhaps you could just DNA all the get before they go to their new homes - then the parents would not need to be done, assuming you do not plan to breed them again. If you plan to breed again - they need to be tested because even all clear pups does not mean all clear parents.
Right now the BHE is supplementing retests at $15 a test so instead of $65 it only costs $50- a nice incentive if money is tight.
IMO, any testing is better than no testing and being open and honest about it, if not with us nosey nellies, then your puppy people, is the icing on the cake.
Again, good luck.
