Basil's worse after meeting with behaviorist

[basilboy7]

@listeme:

I think my confusion is mostly that my experience with "earning" stuff (like in the nothing in life is free program) is always, 100 percent instant reward type stuff. So in order to go through a door, my puppy has to sit. In order to get her food, she has to do something. In order to do the thing she wants to do now, she has to do a thing now. Because dogs live in the moment

So I keep tripping over the word "earning". A behaviorist knows that the puppy has no idea he has to do something for a whole week in order to get a reward, so she must be targeting the humans and mean something else than my customary understanding of the word. So I guess I'd be wondering what the behaviorist is expecting of the human here

I'm just musing, by the way. Basil seems like a funny and complex little guy

P.S. Did I recommend the SPT yahoo group? It's been a GREAT resource for me in training the puppies I have in a completely positive way. I love the list owner's approach to both humans and puppies.

Hm, how do I find this group? I'm not sure what she wants to happen with him earning a toy a week… maybe connected to the resource guarding? But again he doesn't resource guard his toys.. I can say "drop it" with a bone and he'll listen and I can hold his toys and pick them up without a reaction. So I'm really not sure on this one.

[listeme]

I'm not very good at links, but I think this should work: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/spt/

[basilboy7]

@listeme:

I'm not very good at links, but I think this should work: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/spt/

Joined! thank you

[Patty]

I too am confused about 'earning a toy a week' - I don't think this would teach him anything as he wouldn't reason after a week why he's getting the toy.

I know it's easy to say but it would be better to askther behaviorist questions at the time of her advice.

I do hope this problem will be soon resolved It's so frustrating when you have done so well.

[sharronhurlbut]

this behaviorist sounds like she is working with a child/human. Dogs don't think that far in the future.
CM = the dog whisper..his isn't anytype of trainer anyone should follow. imo.

[eeeefarm]

@sharronhurlbut:

this behaviorist sounds like she is working with a child/human. Dogs don't think that far in the future.

Kids don't even think that far into the future! Doesn't sound logical to me. If you are using operant conditioning, the reward (or punishment) needs to follow the action as closely as possible to be associated with it. That said, it isn't really fair to criticize without the reasoning being explained.

[agilebasenji]

i would guess it's like if he can be good with one toy, try two, if he can be good with 2 toys, try 3, etc. Building up. Also, since the dog is resource guarding, it is probably easier for the human to keep track of where fewer toys are. If you, as this dog's human, had to keep up with 22 toys on the ground, that would be difficult. 22 toys to guard is a LOT of guarding.
that's just my guess anyway.

[wizard]

Either you need to sit down with the behaviorist and get her to explain things better or get another behaviorist.

Eeefarm is right - rewards need to come when the correct behavior is achieved not several days later, regardless of whether the reward is one toy or three. Are you also working on general obedience at the same time? If not this might also help redirect your dog's attention to good behaviors.

And wearing a gentle leader all the time???? My dogs would have that off in 10 seconds. I've never seen the gentle leader promoted as a calming tool so I don't understand that suggestion.

[basilboy7]

@wizard:

Either you need to sit down with the behaviorist and get her to explain things better or get another behaviorist.

Eeefarm is right - rewards need to come when the correct behavior is achieved not several days later, regardless of whether the reward is one toy or three. Are you also working on general obedience at the same time? If not this might also help redirect your dog's attention to good behaviors.

And wearing a gentle leader all the time???? My dogs would have that off in 10 seconds. I've never seen the gentle leader promoted as a calming tool so I don't understand that suggestion.

I'll have to email her. What do you mean by general obedience? Like working on sit, stay, come, leave it, drop it…etc? If so then yes.. all of his meals are fed by hand... working on crate training, general commands (sit, stay, etc) and then his leave it and impulse control. I've also been working with drop it when we play fetch or to get him to trade a toy for another toy... and obviously when he has something I don't want him to have.

I'm with you in that I'm uncomfortable with him wearing a gentle lead all the time... although surprisingly it does calm him down but to the point where he just sleeps or stares into space and won't function with it on. I use it when we have company or on days I take him to respite with me (I work with a boy with down syndrome) and this helps to calm him down and make it easier to have him visit with company. I'll email the behaviorist and ask for more specifics.

[basilboy7]

@eeeefarm:

Kids don't even think that far into the future! Doesn't sound logical to me. If you are using operant conditioning, the reward (or punishment) needs to follow the action as closely as possible to be associated with it. That said, it isn't really fair to criticize without the reasoning being explained.

Oh you guys are funny

[basilboy7]

On Thursday while trying to put a new winter jacket on Basil he bit my lip and I had to get a stitch. I emailed the behaviorist and she said that he's not ready for group classes and that he needs more in home training. She didn't give any advice as to how to handle this in the mean time as she said she's fully booked until January. I'm kind of lost as to what to do… I feel like I have an incurable dog that I somehow made into a monster at some point. I've been working hard on his impulse control and drop it/leave it training. He's just becoming more and more irritable. I think I'm going to try to work on this how I think is right. I stopped using the soft lead and his toys are back into a bin that he has access to. I'm going to try to use a more loving approach and try to understand him more. We'll have to see how this goes. I'm also going to go through the Humane Society for his group classes instead of with this trainer. Although I'm going to wait until after his neutered as he will be this month and want him to have time to heal. Thanks for all your support, just thought I'd update you all.

[lvoss]

If the behaviorist doesn't have it in her schedule to see you for several appoints then they are too overbooked to be effective to help you. You need someone who will do a consult, set up a plan, and follow up on a regular basis if you are going to make progress.

If Basil finds the gentle leader aversive then he may have started to make negative associations with touch. Also, leaning over a dog as most of us do to dress a dog in a coat is very invasive and can make some dogs respond in ways to get more distance. If Basil is good at impulse control and hand feeding, start making a requirement of feeding that your hand is on him for him to get his kibble. Start with your hand somewhere he is comfortable having it and as long as your hand is in contact with him he get to eat from the other hand. Then start to move you hand around his body. Watch for him taking the food with more force or pausing in taking food these are indications that he doesn't feel comfortable having that spot touched. You will need to work slowly on those spots to build positive associations by feeding while touching those spots.

If you have to dress him in a winter coat to take him out and it requires two hands then smear peanut butter or something equally thick and sticky on a clean part of the fridge so that he can lick it while you are dressing him. Human touching = food

If you are not already using NILIF, nothing in life is free, then start. He should be earning not only his food but also his other life rewards. If he wants to go out for a walk, then he sits and makes eye contact you open the door and release him to go out. If he wants to come sit with you then he sits and makes eye contact and waits to be asked up. Watch the video "Say Please By Sitting" http://drsophiayin.com/videos/SayPleaseBySitting.m4v

[wizard]

My suggestion: Drop that behaviorist!!! I don't think she understands basenjis and I don't like her methods.
Lvoss has great suggestions - the video especially. Hand touches while treating is an excellent idea, also include collar grabs.
Also reward reward reward all good behavior too - several small treats not just 1 piece.
And good that you are working on basic obedience - apply these as training moments whenever the opportunity presents itself (more work on your part) not just during "official" training times.

[basilboy7]

Thank you for your replies. I've started to implement the touch while feeding and so far it's working well. I find that he tries to inhale his food though… any ideas on how to minimize this? I'm going to look at the local humane society for some different trainers as my sister went there and I love the way their dog is trained.

[tanza]

@basilboy7:

Thank you for your replies. I've started to implement the touch while feeding and so far it's working well. I find that he tries to inhale his food though… any ideas on how to minimize this? I'm going to look at the local humane society for some different trainers as my sister went there and I love the way their dog is trained.

Put rocks in the dish, big ones that he can not swallow… he will have to eat around them. This is a trick used for many, many years with horses that inhaled their food since with a horse it can quickly cause colic.

[basilboy7]

@tanza:

Put rocks in the dish, big ones that he can not swallow… he will have to eat around them. This is a trick used for many, many years with horses that inhaled their food since with a horse it can quickly cause colic.

And if you feed in your hand while doing the touching?

[lvoss]

Have less in your hand at a time and just refill more frequently. It sounds like he is still mastering impulse control.

[Kipawa]

@tanza:

Put rocks in the dish, big ones that he can not swallow… he will have to eat around them. This is a trick used for many, many years with horses that inhaled their food since with a horse it can quickly cause colic.

Awesome! Thanks for the tip, Pat, because Kipawa is a little bit of a Hoover.

[Anubis's Mommy]

They also sell bowls that have bumps in them to eat around…safer than rocks Worked for my lab x who used to inhale her food when she was a puppy. http://www.ohmydogsupplies.com/brake-fast.html here's a link! They arent very expensive either. Hope it helps!!

[Patty]

I'm pleased to hear that hand/touch feeding Basil is having good results - this is my favourite method of dealing with Basenjis who tend to bite.