B Boy wants to fight with new NSDT
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Hey everyone
We just got a new addition to our family a 3.5 y/o male intact Toller. He is a great dog, loves everyone, tries to stay out of Tuckers way (he knows that Tuck does not like him). This weekend I was playing with Tucker and Flame (toller). If Tucker has something in his mouth when I am throwing the ball for Flame he seems to be ok. Just stands in the middle of the yard and mungs whatever he has for a toy and will occasionally chase Flame when the ball is being tossed for him. I am not really sure what happened at the time but I was throwing the ball for Flame and Tucker went chasing after him, I think he nipped at his tail a few times and then the fight was on. By the time I got over to them (we have a biiiig yard) Flame had Tucker pinned, but Tuck was not going to let up on the fight. I grabbed both of their collars and yarded them off of one another. I looked down and Tucker was covered in blood!! I ran him inside, called the vet and started searching for wounds. Most of the wounds are around his muzzle, Flame could have done a lot worse damage but I think he just wants to make it known that he doesn't want to take any crap from Tucker. He has a few bite marks by his eyes and on his muzzle. Not enough to take him to the vet but enough to cause a lot of blood and lots of tears from me!
I washed him up in the bathtub and re-inspected his wounds. I think its more of his pride that took the beating. I just really want them to get along. Winter is coming and Flame needs to be an inside dog with the other two when we go to work. If I have to I guess I can crate Flame up all day but I don't really want to. Any suggestions on why this is happening and what I can do??
Right now Flame is in a big dog run outside every day and every time we leave the house. The B's get the run of the porch and the yard with the doggy door.
I was trying to get them to play together, but think that it may be a good idea to separate Tucker and Flame when I an throwing the ball. Flame also needs to be neutered but Tucker is going to be left intact because I will be using him for breeding. We have had Flame now for about 6 weeks and there have been a few scraps but nothing like this. Flame was on top of him starting to do the head shake!
I am scared…I don't want the dogs to fight and get hurt and I don't want to have to give Flame back.
What can I do?? -
Honestly, I don't think you have a choice. Sounds like it has been building up to this fight…. and since it was never a good relationship to start with, I don't think you will be able to make it work. Not all dogs get along and especially same sex. Of course "intact" does not help the situation.
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With basenji breeding season upon us, it is likely to get worse and not better. Tempers are short around my house right now with everyone in anticipation of season. For some after the surge in hormones is done then everyone is fine but for others once the animosity starts it won't ever let up.
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It is always a bit dicey to convince 2 dogs to get along after blood has been shed. When my 2 boys were intact, fall was ALWAYS worse and I wouldn't even let them look at each other too long. They have been in several fights, but I always managed to gain a somewhat peacable household after a fight, but it was a slow process and I never leave them out together when I'm not home. (Even today when they are almost 14 and 15 years old. Digital is loose and Jet is in an expen.) I don't have any delusions that I was able to get them reintroduced b/c I'm a wonderful dogmom, I think I just got lucky. If you really want to keep both, you may have to run 2 separate packs forever. I don't think anyone can really say for sure. Running 2 separate packs is doable, especially in an adult-only home, but it does take dedication. You just need to figure out if you're willing to do that or not.
For right now, I'd keep the boys separated. IMO, if you can keep one in an expen with the other in the same room peacable, there's some hope. I'd also brush up on the obedience, mat work (google Overall's Relaxation Protocal), get a DAP. You want to make sure everyone is exercised (esp the high-on-hormones intact male basenji). Do you have someone else that can walk Flame while you walk Tucker? I think this would be great to do if you could walk them about 10-12 feet apart but parallel, depending on each dog's comfort zone. You just want to kiss on that comfort zone, not push into it too hard if that makes sense.
Personally, I don't hold much faith in the "support one as dominant, feed/pet/play with that one first, etc", but that sort of advice is out there.
I would look into different methods of getting 2 dogs to get along and figure out what feels right to you. Then look for a good behaviorist/trainer to help.
Literature about dog-dog issues, just off the top of my head:
William Campbell (i really liked his "happy dance routine", but I can't remember which book I read about it in. Here's one of his books from dogwise. Looks good, I should get it and read/reread it) http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB101
McConnell's Feeling Outnumbered - this is a booklet, not a full book. There is a little about 2 dogs who don't get along, but it's more a comprehensive look at living with dogs. For the price, i think it's a good deal.
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continued (safer that way with this wacky computer)
Right now PMc's dvds are on sale:
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/category/dog-training-dvds
there is a feeling outnumbered dvd. i have not seen it.Jan Fennel also talks about this (I think) in her book. I wasn't overly impressed with her book, but I know some people liked it.
Dodman has written about this, I believe in his Dogs Behaving Badly, but I'm not 100% sure if that was the right book or not.
ALSO, you may want to pick up a copy of Parson's Click To Calm. I think that book would helpful even if it doesn't exactly address what you're dealing with.
good luck. You have some work ahead of you.
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Oh boy. I don't want to be negative, but if it was me I would never, ever want to leave these two together alone. Even if things have been good for awhile. I think you would be risking too much, and it is your Basenji who would pay the price. Running them together when you are there to supervise may be possible, but in that case you need to be vigilant and catch things before they get out of hand. Good luck!
BTW, you can get plans for a really good insulated dog house that would keep Flame warm outside if you wanted to continue that practice in your absence in the winter.
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To the OP, I'm really sorry to read about the fight and can certainly relate.
Anyway, +1 to the PMC booklet - Feeling Outnumbered. One thing I found really useful about that booklet is about fights and things you are/aren't willing to allow in your house as far as behavior. Honestly same sex packs are dicey - and I agree with everyone who said you will need to be extremely vigilant even if you are able to get them back together.
Good luck and I hope it works out the way you want.
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To the OP, I'm really sorry to read about the fight and can certainly relate.
Anyway, +1 to the PMC booklet - Feeling Outnumbered. One thing I found really useful about that booklet is about fights and things you are/aren't willing to allow in your house as far as behavior. Honestly same sex packs are dicey - and I agree with everyone who said you will need to be extremely vigilant even if you are able to get them back together.
Good luck and I hope it works out the way you want.
As we all say, it works till it doesn't and when is doesn't either you find new homes or figure out how to run "packs" in the house.
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IPersonally, I don't hold much faith in the "support one as dominant, feed/pet/play with that one first, etc", but that sort of advice is out there..
I think it is a great idea, and works great–- up until you mess up or there is a fight. After that, all bets are off.
Can I ask why you are planning to breed Tucker? I am too tired to go searching for info, but if he isn't superb and you don't have a contract with the breeder to keep intact, I'd go for more house peace and neuter him too.
That said, I can only agree with the others. Having had to live with a 2 and even 3 pack separation over the years, it isn't fun but it is doable. It is why we push so hard for people to get opposite sexes to give yourself a running chance of peace.
I do want to add one really big caution. You say not worth vet visit-- but a puncture can look like nothing and harbor horrible bacteria and go wrong fast. I truly would go in, let the vet flush out all areas, check for punctures (which can be VERY VERY hard to see until they get infected!) and do prophylactic antibiotics to be sure.
I will share a story though--- Sayblee used to take on the Chow. 25 pounds vs 70. She lived because the Chow did not want to kill her, she just wanted her OFF. She finished her championship with stitches on her head. I took her to the vet who started laughing. I said "Okay Laurie, what is funny about this? She has a major dog show this weekend!" She said, "Well, I am looking at the holes and it is obvious that all are on her front and that at no point did she ever try to leave the fight." YA THINK? I literally pealed her off the chow's back, legs wrapped around her neck chewing her ears and head. Poor Katana. :( Point is, yeah, they don't know they are beaten and they don't quit.
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Allmost impossible to give advice about this with only this bit of info. Can be so much different reasons why they don't get along, why they where fighting now… And even more things you can try to make it work, but it all depends on the dogs and you. Bad or wrong advice will most of the time only make it worse.
2 things you can do are looking for someone who has a lot of experience in this field and let him watch the dogs and see if he can find the trigger to their behavior and how to fix it, or keep them seperate (and neuter one maybe) if you aren't in the position to intercept them before they start making trouble so to avoid fights -
Do you need to keep the intact dog, well, intact??
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Thank you for all of your advice. Sorry I haven't been able to repsond sooner. Internet is down at home and I can only be in contact at work.
The basenji I have has just finished his Championship and I would like to send him down to the States next year to get his Am. Championship as well. Then I would like to use him for breeding because he is a beautiful boy. He is a multi-group placer and I would like a couple of litters from him before I decide to neuter him.
Flame just 'wants him off' too. But since Tucker won't back down I am afraid they would fight until the end. Tuck is definately a dominant boy and Flame would get along with anyone who wouldn't antagonize him. But when they are running Tuck decided that he wants to nip Flame in the flanks and then that spurs the beginning of the fight. Flame has tried to just growl and back away and well that hasn't worked so now he has taken it to the next level.
For now they will never be left alone together, for the winter Flame will probably be in a crate somewhere in the house. Dog house outside is not out of the question but when it get to -40 Celcius here that is a little too cold for anyone.
I am running them separately now. Tucker is in a crate when Flame is outside playing fetch and then vice versa, Tuck gets to come outside and play fetch (usually 3 throws) then I let them all out and they just run around the yard. It doesn't seem to be an issue until you throw a human into the mix.
Anyhow, thank you all for your suggestions and I have thought about giving Flame back but I don't feel that is an option at this time. I want to make this work for everyone.
Have a good night and I will check back tomorrow. -
This is the doghouse we used for years for our outdoor Border Collie. I realize Alberta can be colder (although we have seen -30C at this location), but you are talking about daytime use, not overnight. We used straw for bedding, and when my dog emerged in the morning after a cold night, he was quite warm and the interior of the house was also (I checked). Sized and insulated correctly, this design will keep a dog warm. (you could obviously change the dimensions to allow for more insulation if necessary). The only caveat is, will he use it? My BC was happy to retire to his house for the night, but during the day tended to lie in the "porch" so he could see what was going on. Of course, much of the day he spent his time with me, so it was a non issue. (one addition…...we put a couple of cement blocks on the roof after it blew off one day in a windstorm!)
http://www.kwhumane.com/uploads/Documents/Ideal_Doghouse.pdf
