Pups :-)

@sinbaje:

Yes, Pat you and a few others certainly do jump in and question "breeders" via this forum - granted they are mostly unknown backyard breeders in which the poor unsuspecting pet owners get an earful for not being more discerning in their choices vs actually confronting the breeders head on. Oh wait very few if any are on this forum or if they are, are brave enough to post.

And you have not made comments? Glad that you have set everyone straight or have rewritten history

Debra, if I were to see a post asking about a particular breeder or health result I knew was not being forthright or has not been tested, then I would contact the poster privately to point them in the right direction, as I have done in the past. *

And no, you are not the least bit crooked. You are a rare straight shooter which is highly refreshing (weird- when I typed a rare s on the iPhone it typed anrares (an n for the space which I miss hit all the time) and it autocorrected to Antares - twilight music).*

No Pat, I don't believe I have ever given a new owner an earful for where/who they got their pup from; if I have, shame on me because what I have witnessed on the forum time and again borders on potentially cyber abusive (IMO) and I would hate to be a party to it.

"Glad that you have set everyone straight or have rewritten history."*

Sorry? - does not compute.*

Linda, let me ask you. Have you met or discussed basenjis and ethics with the breeder that is being discussed? I have. I have met her personally and several times at EBC basenji matches. If you have not had that pleasure, then really, your discussions are in the abstract. IMO.

@sinbaje:

"Glad that you have set everyone straight or have rewritten history."*

Sorry? - does not compute.*

No surprise there

Sharron - are you asking have I met Marie? Yes, I have. Basenjis have been discussed. I have read what she writes to the various lists over the past several years. Was ethics discussed? No more than would be discussed with any one person who is not a close friend or whose breeding program is being researched.

You're right Pat, it is no surprise at all that I don't understand what you say. It's to be expected, I guess 'cuz when I ask for clarification, none is forthcoming so I am always left to ponder.

@sinbaje:

Debra, if I were to see a post asking about a particular breeder or health result I knew was not being forthright or has not been tested, then I would contact the poster privately to point them in the right direction, as I have done in the past. *

.*

Well, hopefully, you would contact the breeder (particularly a BCOA breeder) to get the facts straight before you would spread any information that you had gotten second or third hand? I mean, sending someone to the OFA site is one thing, insinuating that you know what is going through someone's mind based on their testing history is quite another.

Here are pictures from the WVBC Af Match held last Friday. Link is from James E Johannes

http://www.dibubasenjis.com/willamette11.htm

And here are the results that he also posted

Puppy Dogs 1/2 to 3/4 African

1st and Best Khani's Piano Man
2nd Khani's My Name is Pain

Puppy Bitches 1/2 to 3/4 African
1st Khani's Dirty Little Girl

Puppy Bitches Full African
1st and BOS Avuvi Cinnamon o Akwe

Adult Dogs Full African
1st and Best Ntomba Mosika
2nd Ntomba Mobengi
3rd Avivi Apollo Calypso

Adult Bitch 1/2 to 3/4 African
1st and BOS FC Kinetic-Tanza Soul Music, SC, FCh, GRC, JOR

Adult Bitches Full Afircan
1st Avuvi Djodougbe
2nd Avuvi Minhoudo
3rd Avuvi Miflissor

Thank you for posting this.

How are the dogs selected to be brought over from Africa? Is it a group of "experts" choosing or just an individual going over and buying the dogs they like?

Without wishing to cause any offence (sorry if I do!!), some on that link have little or no resemblance to a basenji from what I can see…...??

Its not something we are able to do here as any imports to be registered with the UK kennel club have to be registered with another kennel club first, but I do find it interesting.

@Maya:

How are the dogs selected to be brought over from Africa? Is it a group of "experts" choosing or just an individual going over and buying the dogs they like?

Without wishing to cause any offence (sorry if I do!!), some on that link have little or no resemblance to a basenji from what I can see…...??

Its not something we are able to do here as any imports to be registered with the UK kennel club have to be registered with another kennel club first, but I do find it interesting.

Usually it is a group of Basenji Fanciers that have been in the breed for a long time that go and choose. But not always. It is usually pups that are brought back and granted they don't all mature to have Basenjis Type. That is why they are then put up for evaluation to a panel that includes a long time Basenji Breeder, AKC Judge, etc. Once those evaluations are completed they are submitted to the Board of the Basenji Club of America and if accepted by the board, proposed to the membership for a vote.

As I have stated in the past, I think that the area they come from needs to be considered and the access of that area to other types of dogs that may be in that particular gene pool. Remote as possible is best, IMO. Some of the places that some of the imports have come from, IMO are not remote and way to easily accessed by both humans and animals.

I think that we have had some really great imports and that they have really been a plus to the gene pool. Others, not so much

The new group, just approved, did all the testing required, we also took out dogs to last years national to have them evaled by long term breeders. My Ms Wheat didn't pass their ideas of a dog to help the breed, so we got her fixed. Lokoso did, and she was approved this last time around. Some of the dogs you see in that show have not had the testing done we did on our dogs and have not put them up. They are african village dogs, as is my Ms. Wheat, and nothing wrong with that. BUT until they are approved, that is all they are. If they go through all that Lokoso did, then maybe they should be called basenjis, but until then, village dogs are all they are…and there is nothing wrong with that.

Okay, please tell me these are being judged as African dogs, not basenji in that because I have to agree with Maya… particularly the red Avuvi dogs look less like a basenji than many mixes I have seen. And I am simply shaking my head over the Ntomba ones too. I thought I knew what a basenji should look like but obviously I am wrong.

@DebraDownSouth:

Okay, please tell me these are being judged as African dogs, not basenji in that because I have to agree with Maya… particularly the red Avuvi dogs look less like a basenji than many mixes I have seen. And I am simply shaking my head over the Ntomba ones too. I thought I knew what a basenji should look like but obviously I am wrong.

Tanza, thank you for posting the link with current pictures so we can see what is actually being campaigned.

In particular, I find some of the later images in this series disturbing on several levels. 😞

Kathy, I believe you are actually handling these Benin dogs in the current and very outdated photos, so I assume that you know them. Could you please identify the two bitchs that you like so much as to start this thread again (repeated from 2009) using the old photos?

Thank you.

@DebraDownSouth:

Okay, please tell me these are being judged as African dogs, not basenji in that because I have to agree with Maya… particularly the red Avuvi dogs look less like a basenji than many mixes I have seen. And I am simply shaking my head over the Ntomba ones too. I thought I knew what a basenji should look like but obviously I am wrong.

They would be judged according to the Basenji Standard.

I am sorry, but if I were the judge, I'd have refused to give anyone the winner in most those pics… which judges certainly can and have (albeit rarely) done. Am I blind? What am I missing?

@JoT:

Tanza, thank you for posting the link with current pictures so we can see what is actually being campaigned.

In particular, I find some of the later images in this series disturbing on several levels. 😞

Kathy, I believe you are actually handling these Benin dogs in the current and very outdated photos, so I assume that you know them. Could you please identify the two bitchs that you like so much as to start this thread again (repeated from 2009) using the old photos?

Thank you.

Well Dr Jo, I am not Kathy… but since we know those first pics of the pups are now adults, and we know the reds had massive white--- unless miraculously they turned solid red on their bodies, the only option are the ones listed as:
Avuvi Miflissor, Avuvi Minhoudo 13 & 15...and most probably the tri... in pics 13, 14, 15 & 16 Avuvi Djodougbe

No stacked picture but really not looking so good where they are. I would like to see stacked pictures.

@DebraDownSouth:

I am sorry, but if I were the judge, I'd have refused to give anyone the winner in most those pics… which judges certainly can and have (albeit rarely) done. Am I blind? What am I missing?

Remember this was not an AKC event but a Match and an AF match at that. So while they were being judged to the Basenji Standard you do need to take into account that they (some, not all as I am sure that the Black&Whites of Kathy's are registered) are unregistered (at this time) imports from Africa or offspring of such.

@tanza:

Usually it is a group of Basenji Fanciers that have been in the breed for a long time that go and choose. But not always. It is usually pups that are brought back and granted they don't all mature to have Basenjis Type. That is why they are then put up for evaluation to a panel that includes a long time Basenji Breeder, AKC Judge, etc. Once those evaluations are completed they are submitted to the Board of the Basenji Club of America and if accepted by the board, proposed to the membership for a vote.

As I have stated in the past, I think that the area they come from needs to be considered and the access of that area to other types of dogs that may be in that particular gene pool. Remote as possible is best, IMO. Some of the places that some of the imports have come from, IMO are not remote and way to easily accessed by both humans and animals.

I think that we have had some really great imports and that they have really been a plus to the gene pool. Others, not so much

Thanks for that info, much appreciated. It is good to know that they get assessed properly before being accepted into any breeding programmes (presumably that it what you mean, as Sharron mentioned Wheat not making the grade and being spayed).

I think it can only be a good thing to add new genes from quality dogs. I know we have a couple of basenjis bitches due to arrive here in the UK from african breeding and from what i've seen, both look very nice and certainly basenji "type", im sure they will add a lot to the breed over here. If only I could afford to import, i'd love to do it 🙂

@Quercus:

Well, hopefully, you would contact the breeder (particularly a BCOA breeder) to get the facts straight before you would spread any information that you had gotten second or third hand? I mean, sending someone to the OFA site is one thing, insinuating that you know what is going through someone's mind based on their testing history is quite another.

Any information I have collected and stored in my personal database over the years has either come via the owner and/or breeder via public means (OFA, chat groups, lists etc) or it has been privately verified by me if received via the rumor mill. But I was not discussing the info I have collected nor did I say anything about sharing this kind of information nor did I say anything about gossip mongering, passing along 2nd or 3rd hand information, or insinuating I know, much less tell another, what I thought was going through the head of a breeder.

In truth - I am not even sure where your implication even comes from Andrea since all I wrote was "point them in the right direction"; to mean (to me) one or more of the following: to OFA, CERF, to the breeder of the dogs behind the line, to owners of dogs bred by the breeder or down from the dogs or in any way related that could give first hand info on health, temperaments, etc. behind the dogs they are looking at; all dependent on what info the person is looking for of course.

Jess - I would recommend you (or anyone) interested in learning about the BCOA procedures for Native Stock acceptance to visit and read up on it:

https://www.basenji.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=98

(if this does not work go to https://www.basenji.org/joomla/ > members > native stock committee )

Native stock imported abroad have different protocols in place so one would need to contact the owners of these imports to find out how they were eventually accepted.

Debra which Ntomba dog did you not like? N. Mobengi or N. Mosika who I see actually won, defeating an AKC registered and AKC pointed 1/2 African, or both?

Mobengi, btw, has not been put forth for AKC yet so is not AKC registered at this time. Mosika has and is (AKC registered that is).

I have heard too Mosika is well on his way (winning two 5pt majors in stiff competition by winning Specialty Best in Field at the specialty and then BOB at the all breed trial) to becoming the first 100% native dog with an AKC Field championship. As someone said "I think that's pretty cool for a puppy from the jungle." It is so nice to see folks doing things with their imports so my hats are off to the Gregory's; I love it when folks make history and love it even more when native stock or their high percent descendents do it.

When looking at any dog - domestic or non-domestic - the whole dog, IMO, needs to be evaluated starting at the feet - not just focusing on bits and pieces we may not like and then unable to look further. There are many domestic dogs - from responsible breeders to puppy mills - that I personally think the sum of their parts is complete junk but I would not consider them less of a purebred because of it.

In fact - there is nothing in any of the imports I have seen that I have not seen, either in person or historically, in domestic basenjis: lack of white, too much white, odd colors, sickle tails, longer coats, shorter legs, longer backs, large ears, etc. Perhaps that is why I feel I can be more forgiving of any deviant parts.

Now then - while on the subject of pictures of native puppies growing up - Jo do you have current pictures from your Lukuru six pack? I sure would love to see how they are developing now that they are close to 9 months old. I imagine I am not the only one. I was disappointed the one male in that neck of the woods was not at the Willamette Af match strutting his stuff.

@sinbaje:

Any information I have collected and stored in my personal database over the years has either come via the owner and/or breeder via public means (OFA, chat groups, lists etc) or it has been privately verified by me if received via the rumor mill. But I was not discussing the info I have collected nor did I say anything about sharing this kind of information nor did I say anything about gossip mongering, passing along 2nd or 3rd hand information, or insinuating I know, much less tell another, what I thought was going through the head of a breeder.

In truth - I am not even sure where your implication even comes from Andrea since all I wrote was "point them in the right direction"; to mean (to me) one or more of the following: to OFA, CERF, to the breeder of the dogs behind the line, to owners of dogs bred by the breeder or down from the dogs or in any way related that could give first hand info on health, temperaments, etc. behind the dogs they are looking at; all dependent on what info the person is looking for of course.

.

Oh good…I must have misunderstood what you were saying...

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