Really cute to watch, I like the set up for bathroom breaks!
Pups :-)
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Out of curiosity, Kathy what was your motive for this thread titled "Pups" but actually about adult animals (one of which has already whelped at least one litter and her pups are themselves over a year old), dated today July 2011, and illustrated with photos that were taken 2.5 years ago.
Were you trying to fool people or is this a test? -
Jo,
These photos ARE of puppies… at least according to MY opinion a dog under a year old is a puppy.
Hence, PUPS. -
But what was the purpose of the post? You had already posted these pictures in a post from 2009? Like Jo, I can't understand what was the point? People would be interested in see the pictures of them as adults, not the same pictures as 2009. Seems like you are campaigning for these dogs?
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Kathy, have there been any fanconi testing done? How about DNA if the sire isn't know.
Or did these pups come right from Africa? Guess I am not understanding much of this. -
Over and over there seems to be a reoccurring question by you Sharron, in addition to the reoccurring implications made by you and several others re: personal issues with the Benin imports, being asked of Marie, who I believe no longer reads this forum or if she does, it is very infrequent due to the excessive bullying she was enduring.
With all due respect answer me this:
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if folks truly believe the Benin imports are not basenjis, why the continued questioning regarding whether or not they are tested for fanconi syndrome - a disease of the basenji dog? If they are not basenjis, as some would have us believe, who cares if they get tested? And if we should not care, because they are not basenjis anyway, why do we continue to hammer it home on a public forum that she might not be up to date on her testing? Thereby implying she is a bad breeder.
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why are you not asking similarly hard and public questions of other breeders who have bred their dogs (100% out of Africa imports, domestic and/or blends) but did not or worse, continue to not have test results (at least not public ones therefore one can only assume a) they were not done or b) the results were not favorable) of health issues such as hips, eyes, thyroids? Why are they not continually asked where their test results are? Why did they breed their untested or not fully tested dogs?
Where are their tsks, tsks? Or are those only reserved for people who are not actively participating in these venues or less respected and therefore less apt to matter if we hurt their feelings or continue to cut them down?
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I am still on my first cup of coffee, but WTH folks? She stated those were the puppy pics, I enjoyed seeing them for sure. She's getting ready for the Africa exhibition, has the dogs on her mind, shared. Holy cow, talk about unnecessary accusations and insinuations of nefarious motivations (isn't that a fitting melodramatics string of words to fit this?)!
I do find entertaining that folks like to dwell on the oops factor on Marie's dogs.
I was curious, not dwelling. And anyone who doesn't appreciate that opps things happens doesn't have a lot of life experience. Really, got to say when someone has an oops and owns up, move on. Unlike a famous Rottie breeder who came into her kennel with company to find her bitch tied with a really "unworthy" dog. She then, supposedly, bred it with the intended dog and registered the litter as his (long before DNA). Only 2 stand up breeders filing a complaint with AKC got the litter registration pulled. I guess she hoped they wouldn't complain or even notice.
why are you not asking similarly hard and public questions of other breeders who have bred their dogs (100% out of Africa imports, domestic and/or blends) but did not or worse, continue to not have test results (at least not public ones therefore one can only assume a) they were not done or b) the results were not favorable) of health issues such as hips, eyes, thyroids? Why are they not continually asked where their test results are? Why did they breed their untested or not fully tested dogs?
If there are breeders who post here who do this, then shame on any of you knowing and not speaking up.
Frankly, Marie got sharp responses from ME because her posts were insane and abusive. I would have been happy to learn about her dogs and views, but not the whackjob comments. She came here to post hawking puppies as Basenjis, then tried to side step saying ohhhh well not registered but anyone INQUIRING would get the full info. It was certainly a "get out your hipboots boys, it's getting deep in here" time. Perhaps she was burned before, but I can only respond to what I see. But it is a shame she can't come here, openly discuss her dogs, her goals and share. I personally would welcome that. Perhaps she can start a facebook where she can monitor nasty responses and ban, while allowing us to learn about her program. I certainly would join!
Back to the oops though.. do you really think it is unusual or some "bash conspiracy" to wonder if they did DNA? I mean, if I had that dog and had an oops, I'd want to know the stud so I could really evaluate what was produced. Only knowing the sire would help her get a grasp on what each parent probably contributed.
And on stupid husbands… please. My DH had lived with dogs and me for over 12 yrs when I came home to find my JUST in heat (so probably not the end of the world) bitch out in the yard with HER SON. My husband said he was watching the fence line and made sure no dogs came around. I said "CONNER WAS OUT THERE!!" He said (I swear you can't make this up) "He's her son, he wouldn't do anything." No, he isn't buried in the back yard, but I considered it. Anyway, her daughter had puppies 5 wks before. I called my co-breeder, asked if she was sure we had a next generation... took her in and spayed Dax. I now regret not holding out for a 3rd litter, but such is life.
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Linda.
- I believe anyone who breeds any dog they call a basenji should be health tested first. I am surprised that this isn't something everyone supports.
- I don't know who your speaking of, so can't answer.
IMO, if you can't do all the testing FIRST before your putting puppies on the ground, that shows a lack of responsibility.
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Sharron, equally important, it doesn't matter. Because others do irresponsible doesn't make someone else okay. If you can't afford to do the testing, don't breed. End of subject.
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- why are you not asking similarly hard and public questions of other breeders who have bred their dogs (100% out of Africa imports, domestic and/or blends) but did not or worse, continue to not have test results (at least not public ones therefore one can only assume a) they were not done or b) the results were not favorable) of health issues such as hips, eyes, thyroids? Why are they not continually asked where their test results are? Why did they breed their untested or not fully tested dogs?
Where are their tsks, tsks? Or are those only reserved for people who are not actively participating in these venues or less respected and therefore less apt to matter if we hurt their feelings or continue to cut them down?
- Who said that questions are not being asked of any breeder, Af imports or Domestic. Are any of those breeders on this forum? Have you not seen questions to breeders here about testing? Or to buyers about the testing from their breeder? I think that many on here have and do ask other breeders about their testing and that many of the breeders post links or test results for planned litters.
And remember the reason that RMH is not participating on this forum is because of her behavior leading to her removal as a member. It was Kathy that brought up the subject these imports and we all responded with questions about the reason of this post. Was it campaigning because these imports will be put up for inclusion to the stud books or is she trying to sell these dogs?
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I don't know who Linda is talking about, but I want to share that the folks who went over from the Evergreen basenji club, James Johanna's group have done all the testing on all the dogs they brought over. Even color testing was done on my Wheat as well as all the other tests and of course, fanconi that's how we know she is a carrier. As she was deemed NOT to be an asset to the breed, we have spayed her and she is my beloved companion. We didn't just decide to breed or not breed these dogs. We went to last years National and had several old time breeders go over these dogs. Wheat was not chosen, which is fine with me. I am just saying, if you have the $$ go to Africa, put some $$ back to test on everything before any puppies are produced.
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It is clearly stated in the Basenji Standard, which is the official description of what a Basenji is, where the white should be, and that the the white should not predominate the color. So, although some people may like the the look of it (and that is FINE) it *is a fault according to our standard. But it is ONLY a fault…not a disqualification, nor an indication that the dog is not a purebred.
Andrea: I'm only speaking from the viewpoint of the dog's looks. My B is not a show dog, or even registered, so I know nothing about the standards for showing - I simply like the looks of the puppies in the pictures.
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These puppies ARE very cute. I doubt anyone would say different. I don't think that is what the concern is….
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Kathy,
I don't think anyone is going to say that these pups do not possess Basenji type, they do. The problem that many people have is that they came from an area where the majority of dogs do not possess Basenji type. (I saw tons of photos taken by Rose Marie of dogs she encountered while she was in Benin.) Rose Marie did not go into areas where dogs would have been less likely to have been crossed with other breeds but instead chose dogs from this populated area. (One of Rose Marie's imports, Chere, has an atypical double coat with fringe on her ears and breeches. Another one of her imports, Fuzzy I think, has wire hair.) So, while the two dogs pictured look like pure Basenjis, they are not.That said, and I am probably going to take some flack for this, I am not as purist as some people. I feel that if a dog possesses strong Basenji type, it could potentially add something to the gene pool. If an unregistered dog is bred and the offspring possesses strong Basenji type, and the resulting offspring breed true for another 2-3 generations, then perhaps back-registration should be granted. (As was done with the import Esenjo.)
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Robyn, I liked your post.
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Sorry about the delay in getting back to this thread, I am at an agility trial in NM. Excuse the all in one response - it's easier doing it this way via my iPhone.
Yes, Debra - shame on me for not sharing the names of breeders on this forum who are breeding or have bred but not doing as much public testing as some feel they should - esp when there are/where known issues behind the dogs being bred and/or they are foundation stock. Sorry - I do not feel it is my job to out them. This info is easy enough to research via OFA.
Yes, Pat you and a few others certainly do jump in and question "breeders" via this forum - granted they are mostly unknown backyard breeders in which the poor unsuspecting pet owners get an earful for not being more discerning in their choices vs actually confronting the breeders head on. Oh wait very few if any are on this forum or if they are, are brave enough to post.
As for Marie getting kicked off this list and unable to reply - all the more reason to continue to discuss her as though she does not exist, right? Wrong.
IMO she had every reason to defend herself as she did. And actually Debra - Marie has been pretty open/honest about her mental health issues, so I imagine she would be the first to admit she was in a bad state of mind when much of this went down.
Did not seem to stop folks from continuing their negativity against her even knowing this.Thankfully she is on a good treatment protocol and is amazingly in a good state of mind, so much so that she was asked to join the BCOA Health & Research Committee this year. She has been a real asset and real team player even before being asked to join.
Absolutely Sharron, the Ntomba imports and importers have gone above and beyond testing IMO, much like many of the Avongara importers. I have had nothing but positives to say about the Ntomba imports as I have said on several occasions.
Since Marie is not on this forum to be able to reply and she is the best person anyone should be getting their facts from and not via a forum - I suggest anyone interested to contact her. Or first - visit this link to learn more then contact her if interested:
http://basenji-freunde.com/my_journey_to_benin_an_interview.htm
As for why Kathy posted these pics - a) who cares b) whose business is it why anyone posts anything c) why the implication (and third degree) there is any ulterior motives other than she likes what she saw then and now and wanted to share.
Seems crooked people see crooked things, even when the line is straight. Does not mean the line isn't straight.
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Linda, for most of the folks here–- pet owners, not breeders--- and breeders here advertising their dogs, yes, shame on breeders here for not questioning them about breeding or known issues. As you well know, even checking on OFA (which many pet owners won't know to do), many genetic and other issues may be KNOWN to you breeders that an unsuspecting owner wouldn't. Do you really think the breeder of my dogs has informed those with her line about the massive PPR, autoimmune and CUPS? Of course not.
As for Marie, since I am on no other list, I had no idea of her mental health. I respond only to what is written.
I hope to hell you weren't including me in that CROOKED comment. I certainly was seeing nothing crooked.
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See comment below
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Yes, Pat you and a few others certainly do jump in and question "breeders" via this forum - granted they are mostly unknown backyard breeders in which the poor unsuspecting pet owners get an earful for not being more discerning in their choices vs actually confronting the breeders head on. Oh wait very few if any are on this forum or if they are, are brave enough to post.
And you have not made comments? Glad that you have set everyone straight or have rewritten history
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Debra, if I were to see a post asking about a particular breeder or health result I knew was not being forthright or has not been tested, then I would contact the poster privately to point them in the right direction, as I have done in the past. *
And no, you are not the least bit crooked. You are a rare straight shooter which is highly refreshing (weird- when I typed a rare s on the iPhone it typed anrares (an n for the space which I miss hit all the time) and it autocorrected to Antares - twilight music).*
No Pat, I don't believe I have ever given a new owner an earful for where/who they got their pup from; if I have, shame on me because what I have witnessed on the forum time and again borders on potentially cyber abusive (IMO) and I would hate to be a party to it.
"Glad that you have set everyone straight or have rewritten history."*
Sorry? - does not compute.*
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Linda, let me ask you. Have you met or discussed basenjis and ethics with the breeder that is being discussed? I have. I have met her personally and several times at EBC basenji matches. If you have not had that pleasure, then really, your discussions are in the abstract. IMO.
