New take on dominance
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    I read this earlier. Makes one think twice about Cesar Milan…..

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  • The article is pretty much what John Bradshaw is saying in this book Dog Sense: ….

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    Cesar is someone not to be followed, imo.

    Glad there are other folks on tv who do inform without the heavy hand.

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  • I read the Dogs Naturally article and found it to be excellent! We need more information like this out there. As for Cesar, he mentions some things that I agree with, but they are more like common sense, that anyone would figure out. One example is claiming the door area when someone rings the door or comes in. We say "door" in our house and Kipawa stays away from the door in all situations. I can't take credit for it though. That's Therese and Kevin's training with their pups and adults.

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  • CM is a menace to all dogs…

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    @sharronhurlbut:

    Cesar is someone not to be followed, imo.

    Glad there are other folks on tv who do inform without the heavy hand.

    He uses a heavy hand? I watch his show alot and all I see him providing is discipline, love and training. I think too many people try to treat dog's the way people are treated and end up needing help and CM does a good job providing it.

    I don't think he's right about everything but regarding how dogs behave I think he's spot on. If he's not I'd love to here what he is getting wrong.

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    @Moth:

    CM is a menace to all dogs…

    Why do you say that? Wait, I'll start a new thread on it and look for topics here that may have already been started.

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  • CM uses outdated training techniques. He does use a heavy hand and flooding which often does nothing but shut the dog down, that is not training, there is no learning happening the animal reaches a point where it can't cope so it just does nothing.

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    @lvoss:

    CM uses outdated training techniques. He does use a heavy hand and flooding which often does nothing but shut the dog down, that is not training, there is no learning happening the animal reaches a point where it can't cope so it just does nothing.

    I guess in all of the episodes I have seen I missed the heavy hand, the flooding and the dogs shutting down. I realize they probably wouldn't show this on his show so is there some place specific that shows this since in the years of watching his show I have not seen it and this is the first I've heard it.

    Not trying to be difficult but I find it hard to believe the animal channel would give a show to a guy who if you're right is abusing animals.

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  • No one said he "abuses" animals, he just uses outdated methods for training. Years ago that is just about how all dog were trained. And honestly you can see it in every episode. Watch how many of the dog cower in his presence. That is not training, that is force. Many of his methods if tried by the lay person would get them seriously bit or worse. Now days there are much more positive methods for training that give far better and long lasting results.

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  • @EndeavorV10:

    I guess in all of the episodes I have seen I missed the heavy hand, the flooding and the dogs shutting down. I realize they probably wouldn't show this on his show so is there some place specific that shows this since in the years of watching his show I have not seen it and this is the first I've heard it.

    Not trying to be difficult but I find it hard to believe the animal channel would give a show to a guy who if you're right is abusing animals.

    An example of flooding would be when he brings a dog-reactive dog into an area where there is a pack of other dogs. You often see this at the end of the show and the reactive dog become non-reactive (and supposedly "cured" of bad behavior) not because the dog is now okay with the situation but rather because the situation is too overwhelming for the dog to handle at the time.

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  • @EndeavorV10:

    Why do you say that? Wait, I'll start a new thread on it and look for topics here that may have already been started.

    The methods he uses can be dangerous if someone tries to use them first of all. Alpha rolls are a pretty sure fire way to get you bit if you use them with the "right" dog.

    Also using his methods on some dogs may give the appearance of improvement…but cowing the dog is not actual training.

    If you use some of the training he uses on a fearful dog you are going to teach that animal exactly the wrong thing...

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  • Here is an article about CM's methods, it also includes links to several other articles and position statements about his methods.

    http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html

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  • I believe you can mess a dog up using just about any method, including positive ones. However, you can definitely do more damage faster by incorrect use of aversives, so if you make that choice, you had better know what you are doing!

    As mentioned, TV lends itself to "instant fixes", and it would make for pretty boring TV watching the careful steps a positive trainer would go through to deal with a particularly difficult dog. Editing won't work, as people will smell a rat and think you did something off camera to improve the dog's behaviour. I'm not defending CM here, only explaining why he is popular.

    Personally I don't rule out aversives, but they are not the correct tool for many (most?) dogs. For very specific applications, done correctly, they have the virtue of results that are much more resistant to extinction than those gained by positive methods, and therein lies both their value and their potential for lasting harm.

    I found Pamela Reid's, book, "EXCEL-ERATED LEARNING", particularly illuminating on this point.

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  • Sarah Kalnajs (she has the Language of Dogs DVD ) has a training approach she calls LIMA: Least Invasive, Minimally Aversive and she is a "positive" trainer.

    Many of the positive trainers I have met or become familiarized with do not seem to have a "positive only" approach. Aversives may be necessary in certain situations but are likely used minimally and the choice of which ones to use may be very different.

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    I was told by some body who is a social friend of Cesars but totally in opposition on trainig dogs who said that Cesar's dogs have no longer any sprit in their eyes.

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  • @Patty:

    I was told by some body who is a social friend of Cesars but totally in opposition on trainig dogs who said that Cesar's dogs have no longer any sprit in their eyes.

    That's very sad, if true. I've known lots of dogs trained by both positive methods and "old school" methods, and I would say it takes a lot of abuse to produce a dog with no spirit. My neighbour is very old school in her methods, but her dogs have verve and elan, and work with a great deal of joy. They are not fearful except when they know they've screwed up. My friend is consistent, so her dogs never have to guess if they are right or wrong, and I think that makes all the difference. :) They are Rottweilers, BTW, and absolutely great with kids. Anecdote…..I was chatting to my neighbour while one of her (unleashed) dogs rested at her feet. A squirrel ran across the yard literally 10 feet from us. The dog reacted, partially raising himself from the down. My neighbour said his name once, quietly. He lay back down and ignored the squirrel. I'd say my neighbour is a good trainer.

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  • I would definately call at least some of this stuff abusive:


    Yes, i know these blips are taken out of context, but I find the footage of the little dog in the garage around 1:20 disturbing. I'm actually not offended by using feet to tap the dog or herd the dog, but kicking the dog in the soft unprotected belly??? Yikes. Doesn't it seem like there is/should be a better way to train?

    eee - thanks for the info on the book. i got it a month ago, but haven't gotten to it as i'm a bit backlogged in teh reading department. (Right now reading Incognito, which is a fascinating book on the human brain.)

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  • @agilebasenji:

    I would definately call at least some of this stuff abusive:


    Yes, i know these blips are taken out of context, but I find the footage of the little dog in the garage around 1:20 disturbing. I'm actually not offended by using feet to tap the dog or herd the dog, but kicking the dog in the soft unprotected belly??? Yikes. Doesn't it seem like there is/should be a better way to train?

    Kicking the dog is not respecting the dog, and IMHO is something any trainer should be totally embarrassed to be caught doing.

    eee - thanks for the info on the book. i got it a month ago, but haven't gotten to it as i'm a bit backlogged in teh reading department. (Right now reading Incognito, which is a fascinating book on the human brain.)

    It's a really interesting book. She explains operant conditioning very well, and gives a lot of anecdotes, using her own dogs as examples of doing it right…...and doing it wrong! I found it refreshing that she gave examples of things she tried that didn't work out, as well as those that did. She does agility and obedience with her dogs. In one very entertaining anecdote she describes improving her Saluki's drop on recall by showing him a gerbil (I think it was) in her coat, which prompted him to drop "like a Border Collie", in anticipation of his reward (which she let him nose, not eat). More about the lady here:

    http://www.puppyworks.com/speaker/reid.html

    http://www.apdt.com/conf/speakers/bio_reid.aspx

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    There are many trainers out here. CM has a following because he makes it look so easy.
    What we see, might not be what happens a week, a month, or a year down the road.
    Being heavy handed and flooding are old style training methods that most modern trainers will not use.
    Re CM being on Animal Planet and it being ok…they have Animal Horders on Animal Planet and that isn't to be recommended.

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