TOP 5 MOST INFLUENTIAL STUDS and females of the last 20 yrs

[tanza]

@Jaroufa:

There where 47 litters bred as per AKC.I don't believe there was any litters not reg.
I will ck with Doris,but I do know that for a fact.

Kathryn

If you look at Sally's site and her records come from AKC.. obviously there are more litters then 47… some bitches were bred more then once.. maybe that is the difference? And honestly you never know if a pup from a litter was registered or not unless you (or the breeder) personally registered every pup or checked and made sure they were all registered. Years ago.. when a pup was placed as a pet, many owners never bothered to send in the registration.

But again.. in the end.. it is water over the bridge... hopefully we have learned from breeders in the past.. and can get by the "popular" sire syndrome... and expand our gene pool...

[Jaroufa]

As far as Popular Sire syndrome is concerned,Spotty was never a popular sire.And,I was on Sally's website yesterday and there are only 47 breedings recorded.
Most of what Spot sired went into pet homes where they lived long and healthy and happy lives.To say he had 75 champion get is a testement to him.
Also,only one of his get ,Ch.Sakari's Spot the Target,CD was used to any great degree(and is still being used as he has frozen sperm).Not a lot of Spot's pups where bred.So,not much in the way of influncing the gene pool.

[Jaroufa]

Sorry if I'm so defensive of Spotty,he wasn't mine, but lived with me for extended times and in my mind he was the perfect Basenji.In fact,he was the first basenji I ever met way back in 1976.He sired my first basenji"Charm" and later my"Mara" Ch.Termay's Connemara(reserve winner's bitch,National 1981).Years later he sired my first litter out of my blk bitch,Cookie,Blucrest Fore Sundance Hope.He was always my favorite and I loved him deeply.

[lvoss]

In other discussions of popular sires, it has been pretty well agreed on that based on the number of basenjis registered in a year, a Popular Sire, is any dog that produces 100 or more offspring. By this definition Djakomba's Spotlight is absolutely a Popular Sire. Also, you are incorrect to say that the only offspring of his that was significantly used was Sukari's Spot The Target. That is just not so. In fact, Reveille Boutonniere is a great-grandson through his daughter Aleika's Destiny dam of Juju's Pistol Pete. Aleika's Destiny is behind several recognizable names you will find her in the pedigrees of several kennels through other offspring besides Simba. Arubmec's Lady Liberty is a Spotty daughter is the dam of Arubmec's Jon Luke and behind many Arubmec dogs. There are actually several Arubmec dogs that go back to Spotty, Pat Cembura used him a few times. Calypso Blaze of Glory and Calypso Bassanova were used in the Calypso breeding program. Djakomba's Solo Spotshot is behind several Akuaba, Akili, Hacker and Rafiki dogs. Termay's Killarney is behind Schaumburg, Kudabin, Farouk, Mata Hauri, Bushbabies, Calypso, Reveille and Serengeti.

In fact if you look at the Reverse Pedigree function of Sally's website you would see that Djakomba Spotlight has had a significant impact on the genepool and can be found in pedigrees for Kenset, Klassic, Nyanga, Sirius, Kibushi, Explicit, Sundiata, Arubmec, Jaroufa, Wyoland, Thor, Itzyu, Serengeti, Rugosa, Mata Hauri, Apex, Calypso, Terrarust, Dakarai, Viento, Jasiri-Sukari, Tamsala, Meisterhaus, Lacada, Echelon, Akuaba, Explicit, Berimo, Taji, Tomar, Kazor, Astarte, and the list goes on and on.

No matter how you look at it he was a Popular Sire and he DID have a significant impact on the genepool and is behind many, many dogs today.

[Quercus]

I agree. He definitely comes to mind as a popular sire. But, I don't think that Jaroufa has need to be defensive. People had good reason to want to use Spotty and his offspring in their breeding programs. He obviously set good type, and he lived a long, healthy life (correct?). Popular sire syndrome is present in purebred dogs, because only a few dogs have the completely package that most people are looking for…correct conformation, temperament and health. Of course, health is somewhat of question mark unless there are genetic tests available, and appropriate diagnostic tests are being done. But I don't think anyone should feel the need to apologize for a dog being considered a popular sire. As time goes on, we learn more and more about the best breeding practices to preserve diversity in a gene pool...but we don't want to castigate breeders of the past that didn't have that knowledge.

JMO....

[lvoss]

We can't change past but we should learn from it. We should think more critically about how many times a stud dog should be used and how it effects the genepool. In some countries they put a hard limit on how often a stud can be used and though I do feel we need some flexibility we do need to be aware of how overuse effects the genepool. It is important that we know who the popular sires in our genepool are. This doesn't mean that we are bashing them or their owners, it is just being aware of where we stand as a breed.

IMO Popular Sire Syndrome is not necessarily about being the "best" basenji. I think that wins and how well known a dog is factors heavily into popular sire syndrome. On the flip side, there are plenty of dogs that won't get used because no one knows they exist because their owners do not have website, do not advertise, and are only known locally.

[Quercus]

@lvoss:

We can't change past but we should learn from it. We should think more critically about how many times a stud dog should be used and how it effects the genepool. In some countries they put a hard limit on how often a stud can be used and though I do feel we need some flexibility we do need to be aware of how overuse effects the genepool. It is important that we know who the popular sires in our genepool are. This doesn't mean that we are bashing them or their owners, it is just being aware of where we stand as a breed.

IMO Popular Sire Syndrome is not necessarily about being the "best" basenji. I think that wins and how well known a dog is factors heavily into popular sire syndrome. On the flip side, there are plenty of dogs that won't get used because no one knows they exist because their owners do not have website, do not advertise, and are only known locally.

I don't know, Lisa. I think theoretically your point has merit, but if you look at our top winners, a lot of them haven't been used much because people were concerned about health or temperament issues. The top winning Basenji of all time, as beautiful, and sweet as Johnny was, he was hardly used at all, because of health concerns in his pedigree. Dogs that become popular sires do well in the ring, and have proven themselves as successful studs that pass on their best qualities with a variety of bitches.

Now, if the argument is being a top winning Basenji is not necessarily about being the best Basenji, I would totally agree. But I think that the fancy, as a whole, has a good eye for picking a good stud, and often they settle on the same dog because he has something to offer a lot of bitches. That isn't to say that there aren't a LOT of great dogs sitting in someone's backyard, that just weren't exposed in the right places, at the right time..there are. And they would definitely help genetic diversity. But if your position is that popular sires are created by great show wins, I have to disagree.

[tanza]

@Jaroufa:

As far as Popular Sire syndrome is concerned,Spotty was never a popular sire.And,I was on Sally's website yesterday and there are only 47 breedings recorded.
Most of what Spot sired went into pet homes where they lived long and healthy and happy lives.To say he had 75 champion get is a testement to him.
Also,only one of his get ,Ch.Sakari's Spot the Target,CD was used to any great degree(and is still being used as he has frozen sperm).Not a lot of Spot's pups where bred.So,not much in the way of influncing the gene pool.

There was more the 47 breedings, as some bitches were bred more than once, if you look at the offspring under the bitches, please note that there are different dates of birth. But again, no reason to be defensive….. he contributed a lot to the breed...

[lvoss]

@Quercus:

I don't know, Lisa. I think theoretically your point has merit, but if you look at our top winners, a lot of them haven't been used much because people were concerned about health or temperament issues. The top winning Basenji of all time, as beautiful, and sweet as Johnny was, he was hardly used at all, because of health concerns in his pedigree. Dogs that become popular sires do well in the ring, and have proven themselves as successful studs that pass on their best qualities with a variety of bitches.

Actually, I believe that things are changing and the fact that it does take more than just being the winningest dog is evidence of that but I do still think that there is a lot of emphasis placed on titles and accomplishments. A better way of looking at it, how many Popular Sires are not "Big Winners"?

[Quercus]

@lvoss:

Actually, I believe that things are changing and the fact that it does take more than just being the winningest dog is evidence of that but I do still think that there is a lot of emphasis placed on titles and accomplishments. A better way of looking at it, how many Popular Sires are not "Big Winners"?

But perhaps they are big winners because they are typey, sound dogs? It depends I suppose on in what way are they winning. I place a lot more emphasis on specialty wins, and wins under breeder judges, than All-breed Group Placements.

Honestly, I don't know the winning records of lots of the top SDHR dogs. I know that Target didn't do a whole ton of winning…some people say he produced a lot better than he was. Patton did a nice amount of winning but again, produced better than he was. Simba did a lot of winning, of course, because he was specialed heavily. I wouldn't call Shadow a big winner...he wasn't campaigned heavily. Maybe our definition of big winner is different? I don't mean that in a snotty way...I mean, really maybe I am not understanding what your definition of winning big is. I am thinking a nice dog that finishes easily, and is specialed briefly/locally; has some nice specialty wins is not a big winner.

[YodelDogs]

When I think of "big winner", I think of a dog who is being campaigned heavily and has a lot of Group and Best In Show wins. Some "big winners" are super nice dogs while others just don't do anything for me. Winning and producing do not always go hand-in-hand.

[lvoss]

I guess what I meant by my statement is that the dogs that are most frequently used are the ones that are in the Top 10 or are well known either because of the winning or their owners' advertising. Many of the Popular Sires that you listed may not have been "big winners", but they have been heavily advertised.

I am not saying that Popular Sires are not nice dogs, what I am saying is that other dogs who may also be nice dogs and good producers don't get heavily used because their owners aren't out their campaigning or advertising them. Being a really nice dog really doesn't get you that far as a Popular Sire, IMO, if that dog is not being put out there in the public eye either through advertising or wins.

I also don't think it is good for the breed to have popular sires. I think far too many dogs are being overused and are over represented in our genepool. We are losing distinct lines and losing diversity and options in the future by overusing the same dogs.

[Quercus]

@lvoss:

I guess what I meant by my statement is that the dogs that are most frequently used are the ones that are in the Top 10 or are well known either because of the winning or their owners' advertising. Many of the Popular Sires that you listed may not have been "big winners", but they have been heavily advertised.

I am not saying that Popular Sires are not nice dogs, what I am saying is that other dogs who may also be nice dogs and good producers don't get heavily used because their owners aren't out their campaigning or advertising them. Being a really nice dog really doesn't get you that far as a Popular Sire, IMO, if that dog is not being put out there in the public eye either through advertising or wins.

I also don't think it is good for the breed to have popular sires. I think far too many dogs are being overused and are over represented in our genepool. We are losing distinct lines and losing diversity and options in the future by overusing the same dogs.

I agree