New Wellness Core

[AnandaKiora]

Oops my bad I thought it said 37% for sled dogs when it actually says 35%. Nevertheless my argument remains valid.

[renaultf1]

@AnandaKiora:

As far as the Fanconi regimen if Dr.Gonto has such a specific percentage of protein that he reccomends it should say it right there. everything I read about it said High, High, high protein. If high protein isn't what he means then why is the information available so misleading?

In the link that you posted from Basenji Companions, it does say that low protein should be given to fanconi dogs showing renal failure - there is the section on Renal Failure - Hybrid Protocol.

Michelle's dog Tayda is in renal failure (as posted in the other thread), hence Dr. Gonto is prescribing low protein protein food.

[AnandaKiora]

No I understand that. I was talking about the protein reccomendation for normal fanconi dogs of 25-30% as posted by Tayda_Lenny. I did read about the alternate protacol for dogs with renal failure. If I had to feed my dogs a low protein diet I would pick something similar to Innnova senior as the protein is from authentic meat source not soy or corn gluten.

[MacPack]

This has been an informative thread. I mix 50:50 regular adult Innova and Beef EVO for my 3 dogs ages 13, 11 & 9. They actually thrived on the Innova but when EVO came out I thought it might be better. It was too rich and alone, caused too soft stool, but the 50:50 mix has been good. Rethinking their ages and the stress on the kidneys from too much protein, I think I will back down to good old regular Innova! I have tired Senior…and they are not impressed.
Thanks for the information shared in this topic.
Anne

[tanza]

@AnandaKiora:

No I understand that. I was talking about the protein reccomendation for normal fanconi dogs of 25-30% as posted by Tanza. I did read about the alternate protacol for dogs with renal failure. If I had to feed my dogs a low protein diet I would pick something similar to Innnova senior as the protein is from authentic meat source not soy or corn gluten.

I didn't post anything about %, only that very high protein is not what Dr. Gonto recommends, below is taken from his protocol, note that High Protein is recommend "once" a week…. and he notes as long as the dog is not in Renal Failure.....

2. Any good quality dry food may be fed, with the addition of at least one can per week of HIGH PROTIEN “wet meat” mammal meat based dog food (Beef,
Lamb…etc.) to replace long-chain amino acids and phosphorus. Poultry based foods have proven far less effective in management of this disorder then mammal
based meats. The only exception to this high protien diet, in this protien-losing uropathy, is documented renal failure (increasing BUN/CREATININE). In this type
situation, see the “RENAL FAILURE HYBRID PROTOCOL” section later in this instruction set.

[AnandaKiora]

I am sorry you are right Tanza Tayda_Lenny made the comment about the protien level here is the quote:
"Dr. Gonto does prefer lower protein diets. The protocol does say "high protein" is required but "high" in this case means something like 25-30% protein."
If there is a specific, stringent % of protein required by Dr.Gonto then shouldn't he just say so instead of being so vague? Maybe it should say any good quality dry food with 25-30% protien? In my mind and in others too Wellness Core is very high quality. if he wants us to stay away from high protein then why is the the only referance to low protein in the hybrid protocal for renal failure? And yes I am aware of the hybrid protocal, no need to shout, as I posted earlier. I am talking about the normal protocal. But that does bring up a point that if low protein is the normal reccomendation then why would there even be a hybrid protocal? Maybe I'm crazy but when I read "High protein diet" I think that that is what he really means. The main obvious conflict I can see with Wellness Core is that it is poultry based and he reccomends mammal based. When I think of a high quality mammal based food I think Innova EVO Red…this has even higher protein then Wellness. Since he doesn't say anything about restricting protein for Normal Protocal Fanconi dogs...how is one supposed to know that one should?....guess? Telepathy? Perhaps there is a secret memo nobody sent me.
Additionally references to "high protein" in conjuction with fsnconi seem to be in abundance:
"If you suspect that your Basenji has Fanconi, do not place your dog on a "kidney" diet -- which is usually low in protein. Protein is what a Fanconi-afflicted Basenji needs! Fanconi afflicted dogs are literally urinating away vital proteins and amino acids that their bodies require in order to live."
http://www.voyuz.net/voyuz.net/basenji_FAQ/Entries/2008/11/18_10_Health_Problems.html

"Another way to prevent Fanconi is by making sure your pup has a beneficial diet. DO NOT restrict your Basenji's protein intake. These dogs require higher amounts of protein on a normal basis and when afflicted by Fanconi, the dog 'passes' the proteins and amino acids necessary for healthy living. Recent studies have shown that the Basenji breed does better when given small amounts of high quality meat."
http://www.tajirikennels.com/index/basenjis.htm

"In “kidney failure,” he says, the dog retains fluid, buffers, protein and metabolic waste products. In Fanconi Syndrome, the dog’s renal tubules are not performing their proper job of filtering buffers, protein and nutrients back into the system, and these protein, buffers, nutrients and water are being “slushed on through,” unutilized, at a great rate.

A Fanconi dog must be given additional protein, water, nutrients, and buffers to maintain the integrity of all of the organs; whereas a dog in “kidney failure” needs to have Iess protein, fluids, etc."
http://www.basenjicompanions.org/health/fanconi/gonto.html

[tanza]

The good news, however about Fanconi is that from July 2007, as long as we have all responsible breeders that test DNA "before" breeding, we will never again produce an affected Basenji!

[nomrbddgs]

Sorry Pat. That is wrong. I talked to Jon Curby. The test is approx. 90-95% accurate. This is not a 100% test. There could still be a fanconi produced dog.

[Tayda_Lenny]

Wow I haven’t checked this thread in a while. Didn’t mean to cause any controversy…

You're right the protocol as it stands does not list a specific percentage associated with "high" protein. What I shared with the forum was from personal emails exchanged between Dr. Gonto and myself specifically about Tayda and her condition. And to be clear, her condition is:

• Diagnosed Fanconi
• BUN and Creatinine levels at the high end of normal range (not yet considered renal failure, we are hoping that by lowering the protein in her diet, these levels will come down. If that happens, I will be convinced that the high levels of protein in her previous diet were a large contributor)

So her treatment plan is somewhere in between the “traditional Fanconi” and the “modified for renal failure” plan…

I’m not trying to tell anyone what to feed or not feed their dogs. I was just sharing what I've learned in the last few weeks from Dr. Gonto as a result of Tayda's diagnosis. I was also surprised to hear his opinion about Wellness Core being too high in protein, and think it would be a good idea to specify in the protocol a certain percentage of protein that is recommended. But I have to say he is happy and willing to correspond with people about their basenjis and that to me is more valuable than anything else right now. Each dogs situation could be a little different depending on the results of their blood work and whats good for one dog is not necessarily good for another.

[tanza]

@nomrbddgs:

Sorry Pat. That is wrong. I talked to Jon Curby. The test is approx. 90-95% accurate. This is not a 100% test. There could still be a fanconi produced dog.

It is more then we had before and better the NOT testing.. and so far from the 2000+ tests there have not been any results that don't make sense… and the couple that were in question were re-run with the cheek swab to verify....

And in the end, I will take the 90-95% compared to not testing at all

[nomrbddgs]

I will too, just a caution to anyone who thinks it can't happen. It can. I hope it doesn't because then we would really start to question a lot of things and breedings we have done. For myself, the indeterminates don't make sense. That, to me, produces a margin of error I'm not comfortable with. So I, personally, use it only as another tool, much the same as a pedigree.

[tanza]

@Tayda_Lenny:

Wow I haven’t checked this thread in a while. Didn’t mean to cause any controversy…

You're right the protocol as it stands does not list a specific percentage associated with "high" protein. What I shared with the forum was from personal emails exchanged between Dr. Gonto and myself specifically about Tayda and her condition. And to be clear, her condition is:

• Diagnosed Fanconi
• BUN and Creatinine levels at the high end of normal range (not yet considered renal failure, we are hoping that by lowering the protein in her diet, these levels will come down. If that happens, I will be convinced that the high levels of protein in her previous diet were a large contributor)

So her treatment plan is somewhere in between the “traditional Fanconi” and the “modified for renal failure” plan…

I’m not trying to tell anyone what to feed or not feed their dogs. I was just sharing what I've learned in the last few weeks from Dr. Gonto as a result of Tayda's diagnosis. I was also surprised to hear his opinion about Wellness Core being too high in protein, and think it would be a good idea to specify in the protocol a certain percentage of protein that is recommended. But I have to say he is happy and willing to correspond with people about their basenjis and that to me is more valuable than anything else right now. Each dogs situation could be a little different depending on the results of their blood work and whats good for one dog is not necessarily good for another.

You might want to ask Dr. Gonto what he thinks of Azodyl. I have had good results from my elders with Kidney issues (due to old age)
http://www.vetoquinolusa.com/pages/pro_azodyl.html

[tanza]

@nomrbddgs:

I will too, just a caution to anyone who thinks it can't happen. It can. I hope it doesn't because then we would really start to question a lot of things and breedings we have done. For myself, the indeterminates don't make sense. That, to me, produces a margin of error I'm not comfortable with. So I, personally, use it only as another tool, much the same as a pedigree.

Indeterminates as far as I am concerned are considered Carriers and should only be bred to Clears. This is also the recommedation of BCOA. Even if Indeterminates turn our to be affecteds, breeding to clear could produce Carriers, not affecteds

And while I also use both, I have far less faith in "pedigrees" depending on who the breeder is.

[nomrbddgs]

We'll have to disagree here. I only find this a tool and since I feel this is a recessive, it could pop up any time. You still have a 10% chance of a carrier or clear being an affected. True, the possibility is remote, but still a chance. There are many recessive genes that suddenly pop up 3,4,5 generations down the line. I still feel it gives a false sense of comfort.

[lvoss]

@nomrbddgs:

I will too, just a caution to anyone who thinks it can't happen. It can. I hope it doesn't because then we would really start to question a lot of things and breedings we have done. For myself, the indeterminates don't make sense. That, to me, produces a margin of error I'm not comfortable with. So I, personally, use it only as another tool, much the same as a pedigree.

Because we are using a marker test and not a direct gene test we get Indeterminates. It is explained in the FAQ at http://www.basenjihealth.org The test uses three markers that surround the area on the chromosome where the gene is thought to be. Because of crossing over in Prophase I of meiosis where homologous chromosomes can exchange segments these markers can become separated making impossible to tell which imcomplete set of markers the gene is actually with.

There are a couple of other reasons that an IND result can crop up like mutation in the short repeating sequence that they use as a marker. The longer they are doing the test the better they will be able to gauge how often this may occur.

Right now the largest source of error is not in the test itself, it is the human factor. Actually, the most likely case of a breeder producing an affected from dogs that test results seem unable to do so is because one of the parents probably received a result in error. This is why it is critically important that the lab promptly notify any person whose dog was in a batch where a human error has occurred.

[lvoss]

@nomrbddgs:

We'll have to disagree here. I only find this a tool and since I feel this is a recessive, it could pop up any time. You still have a 10% chance of a carrier or clear being an affected. True, the possibility is remote, but still a chance. There are many recessive genes that suddenly pop up 3,4,5 generations down the line. I still feel it gives a false sense of comfort.

When a test is available for a gene, a recessive does not pop up out of nowhere. The reason why recessive genes can surprise a breeder by showing up 3 or 4 generations down the line is because dogs who have 1 copy of the gene do not express the trait so it is masked until an offspring with 2 copies gene shows up.

I think that it is important that breeders do more than just test the dog they are going to breed and use that one result in isolation of any other information. As I stated in the above posts most of the errors that have occurred are human errors and they were caught because the results didn't make sense based on the results of parents or offspring. This is not the same as just looking at a pedigree, this is based on the test results of other dogs the result is not possible.

[AnandaKiora]

No not at all, I am the contoversy causer.:o Sorry I know I tend to stir things up. I was just extremly disconcerted because when I was waited for Kiora's test results I read the protocal and the other info around the web and I from what I read I felt confident that if Kiora was affected I wouldn't have to make a major change in her diet. I guess I didn't think that in 2003 25-30% protein was high. However it's not considered so anymore with more and more people, myself included are feeding grain free, low carb, high protein kibbles. So I would hope that there would be a revision soon to indicate what range of protein he reccomends.
Thank you Tayda_Lenny for helping to explain some things. Without your inside knowledge I would still be confused. I hope Tayda's levels improve on her new diet Innova Senior is one of the highest quality low protein foods around with real meat and easy to digest grains.
Tanza you are right with the new test there will be a significant decrease in Fanconi basenjis! Sadly there are still lots of BYB out there though. Alot of the people I know were shocked when I had Kiora spayed…including the man I adopted her from. Why didn't you breed her and make a profit they said. If that man hadn't have adopted her out to me she might have spent her days popping out "basenjipoos" or something.

nomrbddgs Does that mean I should still Glucose test Kiora even though she tested clearon the DNA test?

[nomrbddgs]

I don't strip test mine. But, I based it on the pedigree as well. But this is my own personal choice. My point is just that I don't think anyone should be saying Fanconi is dead until we get a 100% test. This test, IMO, is still a great tool, as Pat and Lisa say, but it's still a probable test. If you don't know the background of the dog, don't trust the breeder, have started hearing things about the breeder and she won't answer questions, then I would be more concerned. But since she came back clear, personally I would probably not strip test. This is just my personal preference.

Lisa, I understood everything except the last sentence. It didn't make sense to me. Can you please rephrase that one. My thinking cap can't wrap its way around that.

There are also a lot of lines that are dying out that don't have the luxury of knowing the intricacies (?) of the pedigree. I have a Bluestones. Which came up quickly and is dying out quickly. dmccarty has a bluestones as well, I believe. Trying to get to some of the dogs is proving to be difficult because of the owner. I do have some methods in mind, but will have to wait till next year. This is where, I find, I really have to depend on the probable test. Hope this post makes sense.

[lvoss]

What I mean is that when many people say they are studying the pedigree they are using anecdotal information from owners about whether a dog is ill or not. Because Fanconi is a recessive you can have generations of dogs that never become ill because they are carriers, have 1 copy of the gene, but they can produce the disease. In some lines where breeders successfully reduced the frequency of the gene they would have many generations with no affected then outcross to the general population where the gene frequency was much higher and it would show up.

The best way to catch potential errors with the DNA marker test is to test as much of the family as is available. The more generations that are tested with the test in the pedigree, the more likely any inconsistent results will show up. This means looking for results that can not be produced based on either parents or offspring. Like when my mom got Levi's result of Probably Affected when his dam had already tested Probably Clear. After submitting a new sample, and having that extracted and tested, Levi is Probably Clear. His sire has also tested Probably Clear so the only result that would make sense for Levi is Probably Clear. My mom would never have known Levi's result was in error if she hadn't had his dam's data.

In contrast, prior to the test being available it was not unheard of to hear a breeder say, well so and so only produced Fanconi with only one bitch so he's low risk 'cause its not like its in every litter. I know of at least one breeder who even with the test is continuing to breed with what is pretty much this attitude even with DNA marker results showing Probably Carrier.

[nomrbddgs]

I understand now. My thoughts run the same line. The families should be tested as much as possible. This gives a truer indication of who is carrier and the probabilites of such. Thanks for the clarification.