@tanza thank you advice
For Sale/Waiting List Post Rules: Read First
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Well, most healthy basenjis are going to be roughly the same weight and height…and if it matters to you whether your basenji is 15 vs.17 inches high, or 18 lbs vs. 25 lbs you'd better be meeting the breeders' dogs in person...so you have a better idea what your puppy may look like.
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I'd like to think that people would meet the buyer's dogs in person anyway before actually purchasing….but realize that's not always possible in long distance purchases.
But, if I see the breeder's adult dogs are all over or underweight,yes I would have a concern as to either the general health or the care they are given that may affect the health of the puppies.
If the average weight for a dog is around 24 lbs, then yes, I'd want to look twice at one that is only 18 lbs, or a bitch that is 15 lbs. Those are pretty small animals to be choosing for breeding. Are they too young? Are they undernourished? Poorly bred? Or just small? Can't answer those questions w/out more information or a personal visit, but it is a starting point.
But you are right, if those things don't matter to the buyer than it's irrelevent information. For those for whom it DOES matter, what is the harm in listing it? -
Oh, there is no harm in listing it. If I was looking for a puppy, it just wouldn't be a question I would consider asking. I would be much more interested in how tall the parents were, honestly. My bitches range from 19lbs - 20lbs…three are thin/healthy...one is chubby. My male looks perfect at 22lbs...but some would consider that thin just looking at the numbers.
My thought was that anyone who is that concerned about the weight of the parents might be looking for a show puppy...and there would be so many other components involved in the stature of the dog that stating just the weight wouldn't be that helpful in any sort of evaluation.
You make a good point about the health of the parents based on weight though...I hadn't thought of it that way. We definitely agree that everyone should try to meet their prospective breeder and dogs before purchasing
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We definitely agree that everyone should try to meet their prospective >>breeder and dogs before purchasing
That sure made the sale for us when we were looking. We met one breeder who'd sounded great via a webpage, but upon visiting the place we were immediately turned off.
And one visit with Bryan was all it took to get us {okay, well, me} excited about the dogs again, and make a decision!
We visited one additional breeder, and were happy enough with what we saw there also. But there was little doubt that it would be Bryan we got our pup from! -
I think the weights were just to get a rough idea.
I had one bitch that never hit 21# until she was pregnant.. and spent most of her list at 19#.. what I considered "race weight" for a 16.5" bitch.Then I have my "Burner" boy, who at 17.5" tall, and nary an ounce of fat, weights in at 30#. He is solid muscle.. and you can see it when he walks (sometimes we wonder if he is ont he home gym when we aren't looking!).
I think for qualifications, a good idea could be regional and national club involvement. If breeders do not belong to member clubs, one should begin to wonder why…
Health testing information would be GREAT to add to the list of info for upcoming litters and dogs for sale or adoption.
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Hi Kathy,
Thank you for your suggestions, we will add them shortly.
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I think that something that outlines the typical process so that buyers are aware of how things work with responsible reputable breeders would be helpful. I know that I bought my first basenji in the early 80's without much screening information. I didn't know what to look for and paid the price for that. Maybe some sort of statement on each option like:
Puppy - typically basenji breedres maintain a list of interested people. This is so that they are certain that the puppies they produce will have good homes waiting for them. Blank slate - that you can mess up if you are not firm and consistant.
Breeder Return - sometimes a breeder gets a puppy back for a variety of reasons like job transfer, change in living arrangements, military service etc. Still a youngish dog - screened by breeder so you will know if there are any issues.
Retired Show dog - a dog that has been shown to it's Championship or a dog who was kept for showing and didn't like it or did not grow up to be quite what the breeder expected. You get an animal used to traveling, arround people, pretty decently socialized, walks on a lead.
Young Adult- What you see is what you get - how they are is likely a good reflection of their personality especially good to determine if kids and dog work.
Rescue - can be a gem in the rough - may not have full histroy but typically committed basenji folks will be there to help you if the dog came through one of the networks.
Pet stores - you get no support from a breeder, likely came from a puppy mill, vet check doesn't mean that the puppy was screened for the likely things that might crop up in any dog or specifically in basenjis. If you buy from a pet store - you essentially support puppy mills - you may 'save' this one but you will send a message that hey these dogs sell and more will be there the next week.
Anyway something like that - might be useful to have as a readable document. Feel free to tweak, edit or dump.
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Diane this is a good idea. It would be good for buyers to be able to easily reference a document for information about what an OFA number means, what to look for in a contract, etc.
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That is a good idea Diane! Also include what we know as "backyard" breeders. People who purchase two or three basenjis to just produce puppies to make money; with no regard for temperament screening, genetic health screening, and preservation of the breed. These breeders who don't expect much commitment from their puppy buyers, and don't give them much support back. Basically, send your money, I'll send you a puppy.
I think it is really important that puppy buyers know that in most cases you will pay the same for a well bred puppy from a breeder that will give you a lifetime of support for you and your Basenji, as you will from the breeder that 'doesn't do all that fancy show stuff'….'or just sells pets'. The large majority of responsible breeders keeps a puppy or two for showing, and the rest of puppies go to pet homes, whether they could be shown or not. We don't charge more for them because their sibs are show dogs.
In the case of a responsible breeder, you will be getting a BARGAIN for the same price, because we aren't making money! The cost of the puppy basically is covering the cost it takes to produce it. Vet care, quality food, genetic screening of the parents (annually for some diseases); the cost of getting the best match for the bitch being bred can be expensive.
I think it is important to get the message out that **there is **no reason, once you know better, to buy from someone who isn't doing the very best they can to preserve our breed in health, temperament and type (what makes a Basenji, a Basenji)
I know everyone probably gets tired of a few of us repeating, and repeating the same POV…but it is we who end up trying to clean up the mess of dogs being produced and procured irresponsibly.
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Maybe a Buyer's Guide with section like Why Choose a Responsible Breeder, DeMystifying Health Testing, What are you Paying For, Making Sense of Alphabet Soup (What does that Title Mean), etc, with a glossary of terms at the end.
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And people can go to the Basenji Club of America and read what "they should be asking a Breeder".. I also have a link to that on my site and there is a link to it on the Basenji Club of Northern California web site also…
As said, everyone is most likely sick and tired of us with our harping about these things, but all you have to do is spend some time with "throw away" dogs (and those of you that have gotten your Basenjis from rescue, that is what they were in 90% of the cases).... and can understand why we push that people do their homework and get their Basenjis for a responsible breeder
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The BCOA Learn site is a great resource. I think a Buyer's Guide could be a great complement to what is already there.
As both you and Andrea have stated, after doing rescue, there is no over-emphasizing how important the role of a responsible breeder is. The screening, support, health testing, early socialization are all things that are so important to finding the right fit for your household. It should also be emphasized what a difference a reputable rescue organization can make also by providing dogs that have been evaluated, health screened, and providing support for the life of the.
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I think all the things suggested are good but it may be intimidating for someone if they have no idea what they are reading. I think less info would be better so the individual would have to contact the breeder for info. Then the breeder has contact to explain everything they want to explain.
I think just some basic questions + contact information and the web link is sufficient.
And I honestly don't get sick of any of you for "harping". I respect the years of experience and knowledge you have. It is good to see you have a true love and passion for the breed and are not interested in a quick buck.
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The BCOA site has the questions and contact information but I don't think that people are really getting the message about WHY it is so important. I understand that the information can be a little intimidating but it needs to be out there and in an understandable format. I still get countless emails from people who say "I just want a pet, none of that other stuff matters." All of that other stuff really does matter for the everyday pet owner but they need to understand why so when they ask the right questions they can make sense of the answers.
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I think all the things suggested are good but it may be intimidating for someone if they have no idea what they are reading. I think less info would be better so the individual would have to contact the breeder for info. Then the breeder has contact to explain everything they want to explain.
I think just some basic questions + contact information and the web link is sufficient.
And I honestly don't get sick of any of you for "harping". I respect the years of experience and knowledge you have. It is good to see you have a true love and passion for the breed and are not interested in a quick buck.
Dash, what do you think would be intimidating? It would be great to have some input from those that are on the learning side of the equation, instead of the teaching side.
I am concerned that less info would just be less info. If someone doesn't know what questions to ask, many breeders (especially irresponsible ones) aren't going to volunteer information. As a consumer you really have to ask the questions you want answers to point blank. e.g. How many dogs in this puppy's pedigree have been Fanconi affected? How many have produced Fanconi? Does this dog have an OFA number? Will you take this puppy back at any time if my life situation changes?
If the buyer doesn't ask the questions…it is pretty much buyer beware.
I have a client right now that paid THOUSANDS of dollars of a purebred dog of a very rare breed. The dog has terrible temperament that is completely inappropriate for the breed. The person she bought the dog from will take it back, but not refund the money. The breeder of the dog will not take the dog back, nor refund her money...but she will send another puppy. There is not much I can tell this woman, other than, buyer beware. The woman she bought the dog from wouldn't let her come to her house, they did the exchange in a parking lot...pretty astounding red flag for something she was paying so much money for.
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The problem is that if they contact people like you can find on puppyfind.com that are BYB's the breeder has nothing to tell them… and if they do not know what to ask and why, then they never find out.... they are told mostly by these people "I raise healthly Basenjis!", period... and they don't even know that there are genetic problems in our breed and in most cases don't care.. just want to make the buck... I can tell you that I would never ship a puppy to someone... either they come and personally pick it up or there is no sale, period... (unless it is someone I know and even then I prefer that the pup is personally picked up, as I don't like flying them as cargo). Look at all the BYB's that advertise "shipping"... They would not have a clue who is really buying that pup, nor do they care....
Again, while the information might get "heavy" IMO, people should be learning what they need to ask... and people need to treat buy a dog or any pet and spend as much time as they do buying a car....
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I don't disagree at all. I will be perfectly honest–please don't hate me. Most people IMO are very "now" people. If they have the choice between going to the pet store and seeing a puppy in the window and saying "oh, how cute, how much--and the pet store tells them 8 bazillion dollars" So then they go and start a search for breeders. If they would find this website and see a daunting list of things they don't really understand they may feel intimidated by their lack of knowledge and not even bother with trying. If you have the same info on the website as the petstore but a contact number as well then you get the oppurtunity as a breeder to really explain what is important. I guess I would compare it to me going to talk to someone about space travel. I know nothing about it so I would be so overwhelmed I would never attempt to really learn and just forget about it. With the pet store-it is no questions asked, I have to pay a little more but it saves me the embarrasment and frankly, the hassle.
I think I am rambling. I think it is critical for the breeder to be the teacher to the buyer and build a repor that makes them WANT to learn. I believe all of you who are on here are those people. You can, from years of experience, explain the necessity for the tests and proper breeding without being intimidating.
Tanza, you are correct, they can contact puppyfind.com or wherever but that is the difference your call can make to them.
I am a business person and I am amazed that you all breed for love of the breed and not profit. I don't get it. But I admire it.
I hope this makes some sense.
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I don't disagree at all. I will be perfectly honest–please don't hate me. Most people IMO are very "now" people. If they have the choice between going to the pet store and seeing a puppy in the window and saying "oh, how cute, how much--and the pet store tells them 8 bazillion dollars" So then they go and start a search for breeders. If they would find this website and see a daunting list of things they don't really understand they may feel intimidated by their lack of knowledge and not even bother with trying. If you have the same info on the website as the petstore but a contact number as well then you get the oppurtunity as a breeder to really explain what is important. I guess I would compare it to me going to talk to someone about space travel. I know nothing about it so I would be so overwhelmed I would never attempt to really learn and just forget about it. With the pet store-it is no questions asked, I have to pay a little more but it saves me the embarrasment and frankly, the hassle.
I think I am rambling. I think it is critical for the breeder to be the teacher to the buyer and build a repor that makes them WANT to learn. I believe all of you who are on here are those people. You can, from years of experience, explain the necessity for the tests and proper breeding without being intimidating.
Tanza, you are correct, they can contact puppyfind.com or wherever but that is the difference your call can make to them.
I am a business person and I am amazed that you all breed for love of the breed and not profit. I don't get it. But I admire it.
I hope this makes some sense.
hmmmm….now I am the opposite. I want to find as much info as I can on my own before I approach someone. For one thing, I want to sound like I kinda know what I am talking about...and I want to know enough that I can tell if they are legitimate.
I think it is a little unrealistic to expect that someone you are buying something from...especially a living being, that will be sharing your house for up to 15 years.... is responsible for educating you. To me that seems like the buyer's responsiblity. The seller's responsiblity is to be able to answer your questions to your satisfaction. Same as any business transaction.
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I am also like Andrea, before I make a decision I try to get as much information as possible. I do realize though that many people do not want to spend as much time doing the research. The purpose of a Buyer's Guide is to provide the information in a format that is accessible to the general public. It should be written so that it provides the information at a level that some one interested in a companion can make sense of. Using your example of learning about Space Travel. A scientist writing and article for other scientists will write in a different style and level then a scientist writing an article for the layperson who reads USA Today.
Telling people what questions to ask and giving a list of breeders will not tell them what answers to expect and why. I know people who have dogs who are suffering from genetic disorders who tell me, "I thought I asked the right questions" They did ask if the parents had any known problems and they were told "No, my vet says they are all healthy." They didn't know that they needed to ask for an OFA number, a CERF number, if the dog was strip tested, if the its sire and dam were. So it is not about just asking the questions, it is about knowing what a good answers is, what an ok answer is, and what a bad answer is.
Are there people who won't take the time to do their homework? Of Course! But that does not mean that a Buyer's Guide should not be created and posted so that people can find the information they need to make an educated purchase.
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Lisa, I really like the idea of a buyers guide. If we kept it simple we might be able to post it a lot of different places. And maybe even have hard copies available to breeders so when someone calls interested in puppies we can pop something in the mail to them?
Maybe this is something outreach should work on?
