tips for new basenji puppy owners

[agitatedpsyche]

But i'm wondering if there are some things that you think cesar is doing right. I'm reading to figure this out, but i'm more likely to follow basenji owners who were able to raise their pup right. Just want a little guidance

[tanza]

If that question is directed at me, I don't think that he does anything right, as each thing that you do with your pup, leads to the next thing, so not like you can just pick out one thing.... in my opinion. If you want to follow an example, try the books/internet information by Patricia McConnell (www.patriciamcconnell.com)

[eeeefarm]

The most important thing in training, IMO, is that you AND the dog understand what is being rewarded and what is not. Often poor results happen because of timing errors, which is why a marker word or clicker is so valuable. I don't watch Caesar Millan's shows, so I can't comment directly on what he does. If he gets good results and the dogs don't fear him, it can't be all bad, but that doesn't mean he should be your role model. Find someone who achieves good results and uses methods you are comfortable with. There are a lot of trainers out there to choose from! And sometimes the dog doesn't appear to have read the same book that you did, i.e. you do everything "right", but don't get the expected results. That is when it's good to be able to think outside the box.

[DebraDownSouth]

I have watched him. And I have read sickening reports about things that don't make the film edit. The reason I gave you the links is because if you want expert opinions, you were able to read them without having to wonder if the person you spoke to is a nut job or idiot.

You gave one example of what I dislike about him. "Treat a dog like a dog" ... expressions that novice people think sound right, but don't know enough to ask the right questions. Exactly HOW do you treat a dog like a dog? That depends one hundred percent on your perception of what a dog is. Think about that one for a bit, because it is critical.

For me, a dog is a companion animal. My relationship is to train in such a way that we form a bond. That doesn't mean I allow the dog to do what it wants. That means I try to help the dog want to do what I want it to do... such as potty outside, not destroy my belongings, not bite or be aggressive to humans, and at least ignore other dogs in public (walking/shows whatever) when innate dog aggression is present. Dogs have personalities/traits/genetic wiring. You can mold them to a very good extent. But there are limits. I have spent my life with Rottweilers and Chows... so trust me the margin for error with a dog that can do serious damage is much narrower than a basenji. And guess what? The training methods are the same. You build trust, a relationship and you work from there. At the end of the day, I want my dogs to do what I want because they trust me and I have managed to teach them what is expected. Not fear. Not dominated.

So... treat a dog like a dog? Not much different than saying treat a child like a child. It will depend on what you value. If your value is utter control and how you get there justifies that, that will be a very different path that I'd take.

If you follow nothing but Mary's lessons, you can have an extremely well trained dog who will not fear you and will be reliable. If you read McConnell you can get there too, and with more understanding about why.

As for the only thing 2 trainers agree on is that the 3rd is wrong, is true in most in case and profession. But when the overwhelming community of veterinary behaviorists, positive trainers and people who believe manhandling your dog and making it fear you is not okay and that a trainer is the embodiment of those bad training ideas, then you need to decide if some stupid actor praising Millan is as credible as the experts.

I also want to address Shirley's "And sometimes the dog doesn't appear to have read the same book that you did, i.e. you do everything "right", but don't get the expected results." Not really. I will soon be 60, and I have no trouble admitting that when I THOUGHT I was doing everything "right" but don't get the results I expected, it isn't that the dog didn't read the same book. It's that I was doing something wrong. I am so very lucky to have had so many people help me, address timing issues, address my consistency and other things that may be interfering. The other reason things may fail is you didn't break it down into small enough steps and get each step secure before adding. Or, you may have a dog who is fearful/unstable. You can manage many of those dogs, but don't expect perfect behavior. When you have a few loose screws, expectations need to be adjusted. So I don't agree that every single dog owner of a stable dog cannot get results following just Mary's instructions. I do agree that you may have to do things more to fit your dog... but if you hit a bump, write her and she'll help.

And read and watch McConnell's books and videos. Appreciate the joyful responses to her from the dogs. https://www.youtube.com/user/PatriciaMcConnell/videos

Then watch Cesar kicking dogs, tell me who you want to learn from and tell me why you think I would even attempt to come up with a positive thing he does:
https://youtu.be/2mpuybf1pYY

[eeeefarm]

Interesting video. I have to agree, I wouldn't be allowing Caesar anywhere near my dog! Debra, I will allow that most times people don't get the expected results the reason is one of timing, not understanding what you are rewarding, etc. but I have seen situations with some dogs that have become confused where it pays to address the problem from a whole new direction (including throwing out the old cues and inventing new ones), which often sorts things out when persisting with the original method does not.

I know an obedience trainer whose students often have trouble with a particular exercise (directed jumping), and I'm sure there is something in her method that is faulty, but I haven't had the opportunity to watch and figure out what the problem is. Back in the day, we used to teach our dogs to jump and they would have a go at anything we pointed at, but I will admit I have never trained the exercise formally.

The one thing that I consider extremely important is to be sure not to teach the dog to ignore you. Yelling "come" repeatedly while the dog chooses not to comply is one of the worst sins a trainer can commit, IMO. Otherwise known as "don't ask for things you aren't sure you are going to get", or when clicker training, don't name the behaviour until it is solid!

[eeeefarm]

I just want to add, when reviewing training methods it helps to have a pinch of common sense. While kicking a dog is just so obviously wrong, there are a number of "positive" tactics that IMO are stupid at best and dangerous at worst. I will mention one. Many obedience trainers teach "watch me" by spitting food from their mouth at the dog. Why they do this is a mystery to me. You can clicker train this behaviour in no time at all, and the dog will be staring at your eyes, not your mouth! Apart from aesthetics, why would you want a dog to expect that food in your mouth belongs to him? The possibilities for a tragic mistake involving a child are obvious, at least to me. Just because someone is a coach or trainer doesn't automatically mean they have any common sense!

[DebraDownSouth]

Shirley, I agree teaching look at me should eliminate food fast. But not use at all? We have basenji, where eye contact is good, positive, usually not an instant confrontation. When you have some breeds, such as Rottweilers, who can often see eye contact as a challenge, you need to treat and reward eye contact. But NEVER would I spit it out. I start with puppies and have them follow the treat to my eye level and when we make eye contact, it's GOOD WATCH ME and pop that treat in their mouth.

LOL and 100 percent on "come" command. Decades ago Mary asked us "what is your real "come" command. The discussion led to precisely where she knew it would. Mine? "DON'T MAKE ME COME GET YOU!" after 2 or 3 "come" didn't work. I learned to get off my ass and go get the dog if I gave the command once and it wasn't obeyed... or to just go get the dog if I knew the command was going to be ignored. With chows, I put a line on them and reel them in (come is NOT their strong suit) til I get consistent recall.

[eeeefarm]

@DebraDownSouth said:

Shirley, I agree teaching look at me should eliminate food fast. But not use at all? We have basenji, where eye contact is good, positive, usually not an instant confrontation. When you have some breeds, such as Rottweilers, who can often see eye contact as a challenge, you need to treat and reward eye contact.

Oh, I agree entirely! When I said clicker train it, I meant with a food reward. It's just so easy. Wait (the first time will be the longest) until the dog looks at you, then click and treat it. I would say 5 miinutes maximum until you can put it on cue (I use "eyes", not "watch"), then fade the reward (so they aren't looking for your hand with the treat) and reward on an intermittent schedule, preferably by getting the behaviour for the length of time you want, then say "good" or whatever your "reward" phrase is, and go get the dog his reward, preferably not from your pocket. My boy will lock onto my eyes when asked, unless there is a mighty big distraction going on. I agree, easier with Basenjis than some breeds. They like to stare at you!

Perhaps the biggest "secret" in training is to be consistent. You cannot expect a dog to learn if you keep changing the rules!

[DebraDownSouth]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-dog-whisperer-cesar-millan-animal-cruelty-20160311-story.html

'Dog Whisperer' Cesar Millan investigated after animal cruelty complaint

[giza1]

OK, I don't get it, I don't see any "abuse" here at all.
In my opinion, people are way to quick to jump on this guy.
-Joanne

[Chealsie508]

@DebraDownSouth

I agree very much. In my particular case, I have a dog whose fearfulness is shown through aggression (food possessive and Dog intolerant) I have a very small margin of error with him and in his training I have had to make major adjustments for my expectations and change my approach. Cesar Milans training would send Oakley into a tailspin.

I would suggest, ESPECIALLY with a breed such as a Basenji- his methods are not conducive to any positive outcomes for a well adjusted B.

[DebraDownSouth]

@giza1 said:

OK, I don't get it, I don't see any "abuse" here at all.
In my opinion, people are way to quick to jump on this guy.
-Joanne

Joanne, do you mean in general or that article? The article, probably not... accidents happen and I honestly was just posting it for info.

But if you mean in general, you probably haven't read or seen enough of his methods. If you believe old "alpha" rolls, manhandling, and rough physical handling are fine, if you feel that the many veterinary behaviorists and trainers are wrong, that's your prerogative.

I'll leave with one final article, because "in my opinion, people are way to quick to jump on this guy" translates into believing that there is no WRONG way to train, so his methods should get equal respect as others. I totally disagree.

http://4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm

[giza1]

I was mainly referring to the article mentioned.

As for his methods, some I think are too heavy-handed, and there are times that he needs to back off. His basic concept of establishing leadership with calm, assertive energy has merit, and his idea that dogs need EXERCISE, discipline and affection is right on, and discipline does/should NOT translate to punishment either, it's more about establishing boundaries. Body language, and a dog's response to your mood and the "vibe" you give off is so important in trying to teach a dog anything. And no, I do NOT agree with alpha rolls of any type.

No, my observation that "people are too quick to jump on this guy" does not translate to believing there's no wrong way to train a dog, It means that people like to find fault, case in point, the previously mentioned lawsuit for cruelty.

[agitatedpsyche]

thankyou for the responses

in the end, im simply a novice trainer that is trying to raise a basenji. It seeems to be a lot easier to excute and a lot easier on my mind to use positive training methods. Cesor Millan, to me, is a unique case, who has the ability to raise and rehabiltate dogs that are considered too dangerous to society. In my opinion, his methods are out of my reach. since i am someone who has had little to no training in raising a puppy. I will gravitate towards those who preach positive reinforcement since it is easier to understand compared to the primal aspect millan has studied and used for many years. once again thankyou for the comments and hopefully i can raise a decently good, well mannered, basenji (my work is cut out for me).

Garcia, Allan

[DebraDownSouth]

@giza1 said:

No, my observation that "people are too quick to jump on this guy" does not translate to believing there's no wrong way to train a dog, It means that people like to find fault, case in point, the previously mentioned lawsuit for cruelty.<<

Agreed on that... I look at someone who is going to get dogs killed, people seriously injured, and I'd poke at him if there was a video of him stubbing this toe. Petty, I admit. But I just can't even be rational about him.

Garcia, that actually is the problem... he isn't able to do what he says. He can dominate and force dogs, but research shows you teach those dogs to look for a weaker owner and move in. To me, he takes those dogs and makes them more dangerous. I will not say that physical correction is NEVER okay... obviously if a dog launches at a child you are going to do whatever you have to do to stop the attack. But that is emergency intervention, not training. Glad to hear you'll look at more positive training. Your dog and your relationship will gain value from it.

[giza1]

No, my observation that "people are too quick to jump on this guy" does not translate to believing there's no wrong way to train a dog, It means that people like to find fault, case in point, the previously mentioned lawsuit for cruelty.<<
Agreed on that... I look at someone who is going to get dogs killed, people seriously injured, and I'd poke at him if there was a video of him stubbing this toe. Petty, I admit. But I just can't even be rational about him.

And I notice that he has avoided all charges, which I think is the correct outcome in this case.
-Joanne

[Wildberry]

I won't talk about Cesar, but I have raised 3 french bulldogs and one boxer from they were puppies, then we got our basenji. Before Yuna came into our lives, we read a lot about the breed. I read that kindness, praise and rewards is the best way to raise them, and I have to agree. I can only talk about the individual we got and not all basenjis in general, but I had to take a few steps back and reconsider methods when training Yuna.

I have always been a fan of positive reinforcement, praise, and basically teaching dogs in much the way we teach our kids. Punishment in our house consists of the fun ending. Like a puppy biting means that I will remove myself, turn my back, and ignore it until it stops. So the puppy learns that biting = no more fun. This sort of training takes time, but the point is that it's learning. Some learn quickly, some take more time. We have to expect this, since individual dog mature at a different rate.

With Yuna, I realized that any "rough" behavior from my side brought out the fight in her. Like if she stood with her front legs on the table, she was okay if I pushed her down gently or blocked her access with my body, but if i pushed with even a hint of force, she would start biting (as a puppy, that is). Not hard, but she was protesting my behavior. My experience with dogs made me realize that I had to take a step back and train this particular dog with even more kindness and patience than I normally did.

To be honest, I have no problems seeing why the basenji as a breed is known to have aggression issues. A very proud, strong-willed dog with a lot of courage won't be pushed around without fighting back. Violence breeds violence, and sadly there is a lot of dog training that consists of showing the dog that we are their physical superiors by using force, instead of teaching them and guiding them based on well know learning principles.

[wizard]

To agitatedpsyche

In my experience, basenji training requires a lot of patience, a lot of treats, a lot of praise and no yelling or grabbing. You should not approach the training as "alpha" (that's Caesar Milan's basic start point) but rather as a team. I found that clicker training with my dogs allowed them to catch on much quicker to what I was trying to teach (the click means "you did something right and you are going to get a prize because of it"). Most of all you need to be CONSISTENT in your use of verbal cues and body cues. Does "sit down" mean sit or lie down? What's the difference between "off" and "down" - hmmm? And your body cues need to be distinct. Does a flat hand flapping downward mean lie down or stay? Start out with simple things (such as "hand targeting" and "attention on me" and sit and stay) in low distraction environments (like home) and once these are solid move to areas with more distractions. Your dog needs to learn to generalize that "sit" (or whatever) doesn't just mean sit in the kitchen but also on the street corner and at the vet and etc. And you need to learn to generalize as well. How can some of the simple tricks ("tricks" = team, "command" = dominance) be used in other situations? Find a trainer who follows "positive reinforcement" and you and your dog will become great companions.

[eeeefarm]

I think the key to ending up with a well behaved dog is to not give a pup the opportunity to "practice" the bad things. Anything learned in puppyhood, good or bad, will likely persist as the pup grows older. Supervision is key. Taking on a pup is a big responsibility, and getting them off to a good start requires time and patience. Yes, crating can keep them out of trouble when you are unable to watch them, but IMO a pup or dog that is crated when you are out should not be when you are home. Too much crate time can lead to all sorts of difficulties, and besides, they aren't learning anything while they are in there. If you are too busy to keep an eye on your dog, then "wearing" the dog is a viable alternative. Tether your dog to you so he/she is not off getting into trouble. I used this tactic with great success when I was moving house. My dog was with me constantly, and I didn't have to worry about him disappearing out an opened door.

Consistency and boundaries are important. Your pup should be acquainted with the house " rules" and those rules should not change from day to day. Your training can certainly be "positive", and I agree that clicker training is very effective, but sometimes you just have to insist that some things are off limits and if necessary enforce it by physical means. I am not talking about being rough, but gently removing a pup or dog from an unwanted activity is, IMO, sometimes essential. Also, while employing positive methods, you need to wean the dog off the treats once the behaviour you desire is on cue. Intermittent rewards are actually more effective! Reasonable manners and obedience should be obtainable without reliance on a steady supply of treats.

[Dagodingo]

Reading through all the posts has been interesting. It seems that each has found their own individual way. Each dog is different also, my first B was a very confident alpha type. My second is a fearful agressive, what worked with the first does not work with the second at all. The third is very easy going and confident with me and familiar surroundings but becomes freaked out with new things.

Each needs their own unique training. the only two things which I can say are mostly consistent are stubbornness and redirection.
When a Basenji refuses or does not want to do something which is important I become more stubborn than the dog. it may take me an hour or two but I do not move on until I have achieved the goal.
Once they understand that we don't move on until they comply, then it becomes easy to train them.
Grinding nails, giving pills, checking for tics, checking teeth, baths, muzzling at the vets and even giving injections and testing blood sugar for my diabetic dog. All these things can be done without a problem once the dog understands that it is going to happen first before we move on. Calm, patient, assertive and stubborn. One note is you have to be very calm, you can not get upset, frustrated or angry at all. Some exceptions do apply, never get stubborn that they must eat For instance.

Redirection works well which is why many advocate clicker training, I have never used a clicker but when a B starts behaviour you do not want redirection is the way to go.

One more thing is that a puppy will need a lot of treats, praise and rewards for training. Once they become four or five years old then they will not need them so much. An older dog who has bonded to you will want to please you even without a reward every time.

I look at their thoughts much and read them, very subtle signs give them away. We have a running joke in our house that to Basenji's we are just stupid monkeys. I believe basenjis are very challenging dogs to train and understand however when you do they are the most rewarding.