Electric Collar

[DebraDownSouth]

Me too, and dog behaviorists would jump all other the assertions that your dogs are CALM. Um yeah… because dogs learn to have submissive behaviors. There are videos SHOWING how dogs react to being hurt/afraid. They look calm because that is how they learn to stop more attacks in the wild. It doesn't mean they aren't afraid or stressed that you have something on them that can inflict pain if they don't comply.

CAN you train a dog (or your child, husband, employee, etc) with a shock collar? Yes. But should you? I feel it is a betrayal of the relationship, lazy and wrong. As long as every single trainer and behaviorist comparison shows you can train as well or much better without a shock collar, using one is wrong. And unless the person says it is okay for their employer/teacher/partner to use one to train them, then they are fooling no one with assurances that the method is not bad. I just hope we eventually ban them also.

I think what upsets me is that the research is out there and the ability to train without them is there, so I don't understand why anyone would choose to shock a dog on any level for training. I just don't. It makes me sad and it upsets me. And when people say they can do it without it set on a shock level, the question begs then why do you have one that does? There are noise collars.

I don't want this to be a personal fight, but I also don't want to be bullied into pretending I think, any more than Pat, that it is at all okay. I don't want others to come here and see folks just chatting up shocking dogs without knowing that others strongly disagree.

The UK banned them, many european countries have.. and their dogs are better off for it.
http://www.ukpets.co.uk/ukp/index.php?rtn=temp66_249_66_73_at_1614&sf=2000966609§ion=Home&sub=News&rws=&method=fetch&item=1041&tb=introduction

The APDT and the KC claim that not only are such collars inhumane, but that teaching a dog to respond out of fear and pain rather than a natural willingness to obey fails to address underlying behavioural problems and can give rise to far more serious problems.

Carolyn Menteith, APDT spokesperson said:

"We are totally committed to having these barbaric pieces of equipment consigned to dog training history. It is our professional opinion that it is totally unacceptable to train dogs using such inhumane devices, and a complete ban should be implemented as soon as possible. Dogs are meant to be man's best friend - and you don't cause your best friend pain and fear in the name of training." <<

Newest study on collars btw.

https://positively.com/articles/every-dog-owner-should-know-about-this-new-shock-collar-study/

[eeeefarm]

Interesting study. I note that in their preliminary study, only one dog was being e-collar "trained" using methods similar to what I use. The others were being "trained" using high level shock in order to deter them from approaching sheep. Not a big surprise when they yelped in response to corrections, and showed high cortisol levels.

The second study is also quite interesting, particularly the conclusions, which make an interesting dance around their own chart that shows e-collars clearly having a substantial edge in the "very effective" category. It's interesting that the dogs from Group C ("positive" trainers who belonged to a professional training organization, APDT, UK ) consistently showed elevated salivary cortisol and more whining than the other groups. Now, if that had been the e-collar group, what conclusions would have been drawn? But the study tried to explain it away as anxiety over food rewards! (hey, maybe teasing dogs by withholding food is cruel? Who would have thought…..?)

There are a lot of things you wouldn't do to your "best friend". Notably sticking him in a crate for many hours every day. We all have our own opinions about cruelty. I have witnessed extremely abusive behavior from a trainer using a flat collar and leash. I have seen a traumatized dog recover its confidence through judicious use of an e-collar. We are not going to agree on this subject. But I do agree that people who have not had some instruction in the use of e-collars should not be using them. However, you can say the same about about pet ownership!

[DebraDownSouth]

LOL Shirley I couldn't use treats with my rottie he got so hyper, salivated, could see the whites of his eyes. Yet, he could be taught all manner of tricks with a clicker and verbal reward.

But I think you miss my point entirely.. no matter what the studies show, training with pain is, to me, utterly wrong and I don't care the level of pain.

To compare that to abusive training of any type is silly. That's like debating if it is worse to shoot someone or stab them. We absolutely agree about collar abuse, be it prong, flat, choke. Pop and jerk is abusive even when done mildly. It isn't necessary. And for the record, if my best friends were likely to kill each other when I was gone, or get into something they would harm themselves with, yeppers, I'd be willing to lock them in their rooms, especially if they normally slept 17 hrs a day and it was just deciding where they slept to be safe.

If you mean ABUSE of crates… do you not see that you continue to compare ANY use of an e-collar with abusive practices. How about comparing it with, oh, positive training?

My point with e-collars remains that if you use even some pain, it is abusive and unnecessary. I don't care if it is more effective even (though again, in training contests, clicker beats most methods with experienced trainers).

The issue is that the moment you use any level of pain to train, you've gone down the slippery slope. I am simply not willing to use pain unless the animals life is in danger or their life would be confined to, say, using a basket muzzle all the time, and if the situation cannot be avoided. Which of course means bees/snakes/rock eating. I do not comprehend a willingness to hurt an animal, even if only mild. Because we all know that even if you ONLY use mild, they know that it can get worse if they don't comply. When it can be done without that, I truly don't understand choosing that route.

[eeeefarm]

@DebraDownSouth:

you continue to compare ANY use of an e-collar with abusive practices. How about comparing it with, oh, positive training?

My point with e-collars remains that if you use even some pain, it is abusive and unnecessary. I don't care if it is more effective even (though again, in training contests, clicker beats most methods with experienced trainers).

Sure. Positive training in this context meaning positive reinforcement. I train with positive reinforcement all the time, including with a clicker. Nice little invention, and more precise than a marker word (which I have used forever). As I believe I have stated before, I don't personally "train" with the e-collar. I use it for safety, and yes, as an aversive to inhibit behaviour I don't want and that is dangerous…..e.g. cat chasing, skunk encounters, chasing game of any sort. I like my dog to have some off leash freedom, but I don't want him running into danger, and I have the means of preventing that. His recall is generally good, but I won't bet his life on it under high distraction.

I have watched and participated in e-collar training sessions, and they are very low key. The antithesis of abusive. But I think the clicker has it beat for learning most new behaviours. E-collar wins when you add distance (and of course you can use tone or vibration, not shock). I would rate low stimulation corrections as mildly annoying, rather than painful (from personal research, and from observation). This type of training is correctly labelled negative reinforcement, which I am very comfortable with since it is the foundation of most horse training (and yes, I have trained horses certain behaviours using a clicker, but it isn't very practical when mounted, although I have always used marker words and positive reinforcement in training horses, as well as using negative reinforcement.) Horse trainers "fix it up and let him find it", in other words, add pressure of some sort and let the horse discover what action causes the pressure to go away. You can do the same thing with an e-collar, and again, I stress it can and should be very low key.

When people start criticizing e-collars, I like to point out that most training aids can be abusive if used incorrectly. Crates can and do cause great emotional distress. Judicious use of them is humane and just fine, from my point of view, but they can easily become the "go to" solution in lieu of proper training......that "slippery slope" you alluded to.....

[eeeefarm]

@DebraDownSouth:

dog behaviorists would jump all other the assertions that your dogs are CALM. Um yeah… because dogs learn to have submissive behaviors. There are videos SHOWING how dogs react to being hurt/afraid. They look calm because that is how they learn to stop more attacks in the wild. It doesn't mean they aren't afraid or stressed that you have something on them that can inflict pain if they don't comply.

I had meant to respond to this before, but I got distracted. There is a difference between "calm" and protectively submissive. Give me credit for being able to recognize the difference.

Of course the extreme form of protective submission is "learned helplessness" or shutting down. When this occurs, IMO, it is a training error. Whether you are using positive or negative reinforcement, some animals will shut down when they cannot figure out what they are supposed to do, either to earn the reward or to turn off the unpleasant stimulus. It is up to the trainer to recognize when the animal is confused and help him out, either by physically directing the animal in the right direction (and rewarding for that) or if that is not possible, then finding something else to reward, and perhaps returning to the original problem in another training session.

[DebraDownSouth]

@eeeefarm:

I had meant to respond to this before, but I got distracted. There is a difference between "calm" and protectively submissive. Give me credit for being able to recognize the difference.

And that is of course the point… I don't give anyone who uses shock collar credit for perceptions. Which I guess leaves us nothing to discuss.

[eeeefarm]

@DebraDownSouth:

And that is of course the point… I don't give anyone who uses shock collar credit for perceptions. Which I guess leaves us nothing to discuss.

Seriously?

O.K. I have a question for you. Have you observed a dog shutting down when a clicker trainer has failed to notice there is a problem? (inexperienced trainers will tell you to get better treats, or starve the dog before the session, instead of recognizing that the dog is confused, because they see but they don't observe). There is quite a bit of difference between calm and protectively submissive. Body language should tell you all you need to know. e.g. calm dogs are alert and interested. Submissive dogs, not so much.

[Buddys Pal]

when all else fails for recall try this http://drsophiayin.com/search/eyJyZXN1bHRfcGFnZSI6InNlYXJjaCIsImtleXdvcmRzIjoicmVjYWxsIn0

[eeeefarm]

@Buddys:

when all else fails for recall try this http://drsophiayin.com/search/eyJyZXN1bHRfcGFnZSI6InNlYXJjaCIsImtleXdvcmRzIjoicmVjYWxsIn0

I read some of the information at the link. She has some interesting solutions, but I question the practicality. Apart from anything else, if you are not physically fit, running away from the dog may not be doable. Using a long rope at a dog park can be problematic. Feeding other peoples' dogs (unless you have permission) is straying into questionable legal territory. (I have noticed that most of these demonstrations are done with dog breeds that are known to be biddable!)

When I was a teenager….....many moons ago.......I trained quite a few dogs for people. Breeds included Shetland Sheepdog, Golden Retriever, King Charles Cavalier Spaniel, Greyhound, Boxer, German Shepherd crossbred, quite a few mixed breeds, and a couple of hounds. The only ones I had difficulties with getting a reliable recall were the hounds! BTW, food rewards were never used, and electronic collars were not available. I did use a long line when appropriate, and an enclosed area until I had reasonable reliability. I could down stay three or four dogs in a line and recall them by name one at a time. Praise was the only reward I ever used. Corrections were mostly verbal but could include physical punishment.....a shake or a slap.....for blatant disobedience. I trained "old school", which everyone did at the time. I ended up with dogs I could walk off leash almost anywhere, with the exception of the hounds. I restricted their off leash time to areas that were fairly secure.

When I got my very first Basenji, I trained her the same way I had trained all of the others. She was the most reliable Basenji off leash that I have ever had. But that was in the '60s, and I don't train that way anymore. Coincidentally, or not, I haven't had another Basenji that could match her.

[DebraDownSouth]

I read some of her responses, but what sticks with me is… wth? If you don't have a solid recall, keep your dog home and work on it til you do. Then have a LOT of distractions. Then go to bigger areas, then more distractions. Training a recall at a dog park ... why?

Shirley, lol, train a chow to come. I remember about 20 yrs ago I was on some breed's club page and they had these articles on flip finish, competitive obedience and agility. I go to the Chow club page... "How to teach your dog to come." Bahahahaha. Yep. I had great recall on none of mine. Decent, but far from great. And I worked hard at it.

[Buddys Pal]

@eeeefarm:

I read some of the information at the link. She has some interesting solutions, but I question the practicality. Apart from anything else, if you are not physically fit, running away from the dog may not be doable. Using a long rope at a dog park can be problematic. Feeding other peoples' dogs (unless you have permission) is straying into questionable legal territory. (I have noticed that most of these demonstrations are done with dog breeds that are known to be biddable!)

When I was a teenager….....many moons ago.......I trained quite a few dogs for people. Breeds included Shetland Sheepdog, Golden Retriever, King Charles Cavalier Spaniel, Greyhound, Boxer, German Shepherd crossbred, quite a few mixed breeds, and a couple of hounds. The only ones I had difficulties with getting a reliable recall were the hounds! BTW, food rewards were never used, and electronic collars were not available. I did use a long line when appropriate, and an enclosed area until I had reasonable reliability. I could down stay three or four dogs in a line and recall them by name one at a time. Praise was the only reward I ever used. Corrections were mostly verbal but could include physical punishment.....a shake or a slap.....for blatant disobedience. I trained "old school", which everyone did at the time. I ended up with dogs I could walk off leash almost anywhere, with the exception of the hounds. I restricted their off leash time to areas that were fairly secure.

When I got my very first Basenji, I trained her the same way I had trained all of the others. She was the most reliable Basenji off leash that I have ever had. But that was in the '60s, and I don't train that way anymore. Coincidentally, or not, I haven't had another Basenji that could match her.

well, the results of Dr Sofia Yin expertise does not have guarantees for the best results, either real or implied, by experience or not, whether one is physically fit or not . the offered information was just that, offered, just as your reply was. there are many ways of using positive reinforcement etc, conditioned responses etc, etc, etc….just offering info that someone may or may not have already heard of or tried. really..........and Debra, why not start out with distractions? ever really try it? one may work hard at something, but if the results are not seen, then the handler needs to improve or try something else, maybe understanding what motivates the dog? so maybe 20 years ago you were not as adept at understanding canine or Basenji

[eeeefarm]

In an emergency, I have found the most effective thing to do when you really, really need to get hold of your dog and he is playing "keep away", is to lie down on the ground. Invariably the dog will come to see what is up with you, and it's usually possible to get hold of him. Bear in mind that with a smart dog this will only work once, and of course it is useless with a dog that is heading for the far horizon in pursuit of something!

[DebraDownSouth]

@Buddys:

and Debra, why not start out with distractions? ever really try it? one may work hard at something, but if the results are not seen, then the handler needs to improve or try something else, maybe understanding what motivates the dog? so maybe 20 years ago you were not as adept at understanding canine or Basenji

The first question puzzles me because it is really not logical. That is like saying why not teach someone to play a concerto before you teach them to read music. All learning… ALL LEARNING... is best done building on basics. You get success at a solid recall, without distractions, so the dog absolutely understands and builds repetitious responses to the command. That helps to continue that response in other situations, including other locations and with distractions.

As for the 2nd.. sorry, but I think you misunderstood. The 20 yrs ago.. hasn't changed. The number of chows doing agility or obedience at higher levels is minimal. It isn't about MY ability but about the breed. I know many trainers who have a chow but get another breed to do obedience with. I am not doubting that if someone took a great deal of time, they could teach the chow to perform, but the uphill battle doesn't make it much fun. This popular meme isn't for no reason (hope it shows up).

That people who have owned multiple breeds and successfully trained solid recalls with others, but have similar issues with hounds and chows is a pretty good indication of it not being stupid owners but rather some breed characteristics. But I had not one, but 2 professional trainers try to help with one chow on recall. She bested them too. So I learned to go get her if she didn't come and such was life.

[eeeefarm]

Chows sound a lot like Basenjis. Or cats.

There is a reason high level obedience features mostly the same breeds taking the honours. Biddable dogs just need you to explain what you want. Many other breeds want to know what's in it for them!

Agree about distractions. Same story with horses. You want them solid on the basics before you start throwing challenges at them. If you work hard enough on habituation, it is a lot stronger than any physical means you can devise…....and you don't stop 1000 lbs of "I don't want to" with pain. Just flips them over from stubborn to scared, and a scared horse isn't listening and is very dangerous to itself and anyone around. Dogs the same, but they are smaller. (I am not contradicting myself here. Referencing the topic of the thread, it's proof to me that low level e-collar stimulation does not qualify as pain, since it does not cause panic and fear. High level applied briefly in an emergency interrupts unwanted behaviour, but it must be momentary only or it will backfire and result in a fear rather than a startle reaction, and probably blind panic and flight.)

[dropit]

If it works for eee then that's fine IMO. I can appreciate the point of the dog having some more freedom, but still being under control and I would use it if I were sure it would be effective. I'm sure the dog appreciates a little extra freedom too. I live in the country so prefer the longest flexi leash when there are no people around. It gives her the freedom to run 60' in radius and provides some more exercise and room for exploration. If a dog was nipping at strangers whether with an e collar or flexi lead then it would be a problem, but that is not the case here if used correctly. People need to be able to think for themselves, use common sense, and use their own discretion. Personally I wouldn't trust an e collar because there are too many animals where I live and my dog has helped me to track wounded deer so she will go after them without my rebuke, but to each their own. Evidently they can be used effectively. I just wouldn't want to chance mine getting hit by a car at some point and don't want to go through training processes such as classes etc. Everyone must reach an equilibrium with their own dog for god's sake.

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

@eeeefarm:

Oh yes, there is something to sell all right. It is the idea that they shouldn't be used. People who are against choice often design studies to back up their point of view. I would like the freedom to make up my own mind about issues, and if I am on the opposite side of something I don't want to be forced to accept that it is their way or the highway. Too many controversial subjects come to mind where the "tyranny of the majority" decides, and too bad if you hold the minority viewpoint. Prove to me that I am abusing my dog…....prove it by his behaviour or whatever scientific controlled study method you wish.......but use the criteria that I employ, not those designed to have a negative result. Most of the studies I have looked at, including those you link to, are just poorly designed, bad science.

Yes, a Basenji can, I have done it. My first girl was as solid as could be. I walked her off leash in the city, I had her follow me down country roads while I rode my horse. in hindsight, perhaps I trusted her more than I should have, but she never let me down. That said, my others have been variable in their reliability. And as I get older I am more of a "belt & suspenders" kinda gal. As far as the e-collar not being 100%, show me something that is. In my experience as of this writing, it is for me, but never say never. A leash can break (or be chewed through!) and isn't a sure thing either. So what?

Ah, something we can agree with! I enjoy discussions. I enjoy them less when they get heated and personal and everyone goes away mad.

The more we see you write about e-collars on this chat board, the more it appears that to us that you are attempting to use this forum to sell the e-collar concept and use of them to others. Since this keeps surfacing what it says to us is that you clearly have a hidden agenda . So how do we put the E-collar thing to bed once and for all?

[eeeefarm]

@TwinDogsDifferentMothers:

The more we see you write about e-collars on this chat board, the more it appears that to us that you are attempting to use this forum to sell the e-collar concept and use of them to others. Since this keeps surfacing what it says to us is that you clearly have a hidden agenda . So how do we put the E-collar thing to bed once and for all?

First of all, I didn't start this thread. I replied to a question posed by someone else. Secondly, if you want to "put the E-collar thing to bed once and for all", why would you resurrect a thread that has been inactive since September?

[tanza]

Don't think that eeeefarm is trying to sell e-collars.. but as I have stated before… I do not agree that this is ever a way to train any dog... Basenjis included

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

@eeeefarm:

First of all, I didn't start this thread. I replied to a question posed by someone else. Secondly, if you want to "put the E-collar thing to bed once and for all", why would you resurrect a thread that has been inactive since September?

It really does not matter who started this thread or when, that was not the point or intention of our statements was it? Our question was not directed at that either! It was a good try at deflection on your part, but how about we attempt to stick to the subject of question that we asked!

Off topic: By the way in these 6 pages of posts alone you have 22 out of the 54 posts as we count them.

[kjdonkers]

Not to put anything to rest (why would we?), but it seems every online discussion I have followed about e-collars (here and elsewhere) follows a fixed script:

• people who are against describe e-collars as cruel, no matter the particular application or dog;
• people who use them can argue all they want, but they are viewed as lazy at best, dumb and mean at worst.
  It's a pity.

And as to eeeefarm: I really don't see how she is selling something here; she is describing her own experiences, assesses some of the research that has been done, and answers questions. Why it would matter how many posts that takes, is beyond me.