Ceaser Birth & Mommy's reaction to her new off-spring

[krissteyn]

Hi all , not sure if I already introduced ourselves , so
Owner Kris Steyn Cape Town S.Africa Reason for living = Zinze (sometimes Zinzi) now 4 years old - first litter.

I have finally managed to get everything done (all the tests etc.) and her water broke at 9pm, Things were a little slow , so we ended up at the vet 11pm and eventually had a Ceasar. , collected her 3am and came home. This has been a mission , but one I was prepared for.

She came out of anesthetic just before we collected her and first time she saw her pups was in the car - they were in a box. As soon as we got home (she was still a bit woozy) , we put her in the whelping box with her mewling pups and let them suckle. She was obviously confused. Zinze has never been very pro puppy , and altho quite sociable , normally shows any puppy very quickly with a snarl that she is not a toy. But I never expected her not to have maternal instincts with her own. 1 day later and she is "tolerating" the pups and we have a 24/7 watch on her.
She was very rough with them at first and one died , despite me rushing back to the vet with it. So I am concerned that an irritated , post op , sore titty caused by puppy problem might cause her to snap at another pup and do another injury. Her teats appear to only have 5 working out of 9 and of those only 3 working well. Pups have all gained weight in the last 6 hours , between 4 and 10 grams , so am not too worried about the milk but got (hills) supplement on standby for when the demands exceed supply. Pups appear to have all been very healthy with no problems.

Questions …

The "not natural birth / aggression" towards the pups ; is this normal , and what else do you think I might try ?

what is the normal weight gain for young pups ?

apart form feeding her puppy food , is there anything else that may stimulate her milk production ? I have been rubbing her teats and "stimulating" them regularly for the last month to attempt an early readiness , but they seem under-developed.

When I allow her a rest in-between the constant suckling , to go away from the pups (for a pee/poo , or just a change of scenery) , assuming the pups were sleeping , what is a reasonable length of time to be away ?

Thanks in advance for all input , Kris Steyn

[krissteyn]

UPDATE

Mommy's attitude has been corrected , i suspect by a few stern rebukes from me , and mostly by nature. She is calmer and more tolerant now , but I still dont trust her. The pain meds are still being administered (runs out tomorrow ) and she is moving normally considering the large cut.
What she is not doing is cleaning up after the pups , I expected her to lick up the poop , but she is ignoring it. She prefers the chewing on the umbilical cord bits - which I have admonished her about. weight gain is between 17g & 31g in the first 24hrs , but we are looking after the littlist and ensuring its get first pick so that gap might narrow. weights are currently between 276g & 239g.

Its a process….

[eeeefarm]

Sometimes motherhood does not come naturally with the first litter. I have more horse experience than dog, but sometimes one needs to convince the new mom that she now has responsibilities, and cannot reject the new arrival(s). You are wise to be vigilant. Hopefully instinct will kick in full time, but some never do decide to be nurturing and even subsequent offspring are less than welcomed. With luck, your bitch will figure it all out and decide she likes it.

[tanza]

There is another person on the list with some experience with C-Section births… and bitches that don't really take to "Motherhood".... I think maybe she will be able to give you some insight. Not having experience with C-Sections, don't know how much that would have to do with it compared to natural birth.

My one bitch was not what I would call "Mother" of the year... she was OK (never tried to hurt or growl at the pups) with them for the first 2 wks... however once the eyes opened, she would have gladly given them away to whoever asked first.... My other bitches took to Motherhood easily.

[lvoss]

The mom doesn't get the same hormones during a C-section birth that they do when they go through labor. One of the hormones they don't get as much of is the one that helps facilitate bonding. I have had two dogs have C-sections. One was a matron bitch who is a great mom and the c-section did bother her at all. The only thing different for her was because the c-section meant she had to be on limited activity until it healed, her puppies got quite fat. The other was a maiden bitch with a singleton pup. For her, the whole experience was painful and confusing. When the pups first nurse it causes really painful contractions. Usually mom has enough "feel good" hormones from the labor process to not mind so much but for my girl she minded and every time her pup nursed in the first 48 hours all she knew was that the puppy hurt her. Mine was not aggressive with her puppy she just didn't want to do anything for him. She also didn't get enough milk for him so we had to supplement him. It all worked out but we had to be surrogate parents for first 3 weeks until he was transitioning onto solid food and then his mom decided he was awesome and she loved him.

[krissteyn]

Thanks Pat & Ivoss you give me hope kris

[saba]

This thread has me a little worried…

I have a bitch due around 13-15th June, and she too isnt very fond of babies... She has in the past growled at them, when they have been 'in her face', nothing more just a warning growl. At shows I have to be careful not to let the babies get in her face, (she doesnt like any rude dog in her face, shes just more intolerant of babies). In saying that, when Ochre had her 6 babies 2 years ago, I encouraged Vanda to play with them, when they were old enough, and I was really pleased with her behaviour. At first she hid on the chair, and growled when they jumped up to say hello, but that quickly stopped and she slowly began to play with them.

I did wonder if I should breed her, and after much soul-searching, I decided to go ahead with this mating. I just hope we dont need a C.S. Thanks for the explanation of the hormones Ivoss... Would you breed the mother of the singleton litter again ???

[krissteyn]

Day 3 :<)

All is well ! Mommy has adopted a "normal" mothering aspect and last night was left alone with her brood.

I wiped the pups bums yesterday morning and cleaned them up a bit , and she dried them off (standard basenji licking up water) and that seems to have turned it around , once she started licking .
I was expecting her to eat the poop , and she didnt , so it got a little messy. But now I cant see any poop so I presume she has dealt with it.
She is reluctant to leave the pups now and only seems to leave to poop (at a previously proclaimed private carpet ? - never mind) , so all is peacefull.
My home made whelping box with a built in warmer is working well.
Weight increase of the pups is approx 15% , will keep monitoring as I am concerned she hasn't enuff milk. Her appetite seems OK.

@ Saba , I think that 24/7 supervision for the 1st 36 hours is mandatory if you are concerned. Your B's personality is a mirror of mine, but as you see , in my case its working. Mine's initial roughness and subsequent death of the pup was probably due to her pain and disorientation from the op and anesthetic. If I had read the above before the event I would have been more vigilant , so I suppose I am to blame , but in retrospect , I dont believe she has enuff operational teats - so the fight for available food would have meant a weaker litter - so I am OK with the outcome (altho a little sad).

Kris & Zinze and 4 bundles of joy

[nomrbddgs]

As lvoss stated-the hormones are not the same with a c-section. However, in my experience, especially with a bitch that is not particularily motherly, she tolerated them until about 3 weeks and then I had to make sure she went and fed them regularily. As for the not much milk, within the first two days, I found that the colostrum was not very thick, but was sufficient. When the milk came in, the teats were far larger and more milk was produced. The only think I had to watch for within the first couple of days-4-6 days for sure- was that she didn't go after the cords and rip them off (she didn't seem to like them there and she did manage to cut one very short) and that she didn't crush them. I keep them on mothers milk as long as possible. As long as they were gaining weight, I tried to keep her feeding them until about 5 weeks when I introduced pablum. Everyone is different in how they whelp their puppies.

With a c-section you kind of have to remember she went to sleep with a big fat belly and came out with these wriggling things that were sucking on her and she probably has no idea what they are and she's sore. We had one bitch where we had to muzzle her for the first couple of days until her hormones came down and her milk came in. Just be very careful with them and things should be not too bad.

[lvoss]

I have opted not to breed the mother of my singleton again. I think with a natural birth she may have been a better mother and after week 3 she truly was a good mom as far as socialization and schooling goes and continues to adore her son. She also has been wonderful with socialization and schooling of her half sister's puppies, she just isn't real into the whole nursing and mothering thing. I have a pretty full house at the moment so no need to breed her again especially since she wasn't real keen on it.

[krunzer]

I think some females just don't want to be moms. I know when Becca had her litter she was ok with it but wasn't too fond of it. I never bred her again.

[saba]

Im glad Mum seems to have settled into motherhood a little better Krissteyn…

I can only hope Vanda is going to be ok... I am with them and sleep next to the whelping box, for the first 3 weeks or so, so she will be well supervised... X-ray on Fri to count the little darlings, and so I know when to panic in the middle of the night, when things might start to go wrong !!!

Thanks for the info Ivoss, something to mull over after this litter is off to their new homes, and when I feel like breeding again, when Im more hoooooman !!!

[Patty]

Saba - I'm sure everything will be ok. In my experience most Basenjis are natural mothers even when not happy with other dogs' puppies. The main problem is when it isn't a natural birth as Ivoss and others have said.

I think we all worry that there could be problems - that's natural. Unless absolutely necessary please leave Vanda to get on with it but a good idea to stay near both before and after the births.

Keep us informed!

[saba]

Patty I think your are/were spot on…

Vanda had her beautiful babies in the early hours of Sat, (10th June), with very little issues !!! She had 3 red/white girls, 1 tri girl and 1 red/white boy :-)...

I will put more in the breeders section...

[krissteyn]

congrats to mommy and guardians,,, may your house be blessed with puppyness !

kris (also proud)

[Patty]

Congratulations and hugs to Mummy Vanda.