Fighting among my basejis

[Patty M]

I'm not an expert on dog behavior, but does anyone think a fourth dog could help neutralize some of the aggression? I currently have 2 girls and 1 boy, and it's my youngest girl, Lola, that's the most aggressive in my pack.

What is your reaction when the 2 dogs get aggressive with the older girl? Do you assert yourself as the "pack leader", and try to take control of the situation? I'm not a huge believer in the Dominance theory, but whenever my youngest, Lola, becomes overly snarky at the older dogs, I WILL exhibit a dominant behavior with her. (For example, if she is on my lap, Becca approaches and Lola snarks, I will tell her "NO" and put her on the ground. If she gets too aggressive when she's playing with Becca and it seems like it's more bullying than playing, I will scoop Lola up, put my hand over her muzzle, and use my parental voice to say, "Lola, NO. STOP." If she gets fidgety and tries to get down, I continue to hold her tightly until she stops. My male dog, Joker, is fickle and will ping-pong between my two girls, but when Lola gets aggressive and I correct her, he will immediately back off of Becca. By removing Lola from the situation, Joker calms down and Becca gets her balance back, so to speak. )

For my dogs, sometimes the snarkiness can be traced back to something that I've done… for example, when they get treats, like raw hides. Lola's strategy is to politely take her treat from me, but then she quickly retreats to an undisclosed location in our home to hide it! Shortly after, you'll spot Lola hunting Becca down, brazenly stealing her treat! Since I KNOW that this is Lola's mode of operation, I will give treats first to Becca and to Joker, which gives them time to run away. It also means that when Lola gets her treat, I will follow her to where she goes to hide her treat, and when she goes to find Becca, I will (depending on my mood :)) either discipline Lola and tell her to go get her treat, or I'll stop her and give her another treat... which she'll then enjoy.

Please keep us posted on what you decide to do. It would be hard for me to re-home a dog that I've loved since she was a pup, and if I was in your shoes, I would try to find a happy medium where they all get along. While you don't want any of them to be tragically injured, I hope you can find a happy balance within your home.

Hugs and Roos-
Patty

[DebraDownSouth]

Patty, you cannot "pack leader" a dog out of dog on dog aggression. Really you can't. It is what it is. You can separate but you cannot make a dog be different. And even separating, one mistake can end in a dead dog. And even with no mistakes, the stress is there. For you, for them.

Getting rough in play or guarding you can be minimized with your actions, but a dog gunning for another is a whole other world. I also wonder why you don't give the dogs treats in their crates and avoid all issues. Why should your poor dogs have to "run away" to enjoy their treats? Why not give them peace in separate rooms or crates or crate her til they are done. I don't believe in "dominance" or "discipline" for normal dog behaviors (food stealing/guarding) when simple management takes care of it. In fact, since you always have to do it– clearly your methods are not teaching them anything, so why not give them peace?

And my thoughts on rawhide, well-- hope your dogs survive them, many don't.

Nor would adding another dog help. Same sex aggression is not uncommon and having more dogs only ups your chance that some of THEM won't get along.

[Patty M]

Debra,
Perhaps you need to read this string tomorrow morning, when minds are fresh. The person who started this string started with a plea:
HELP!
In my very first line, I admit that I am NOT a dog expert, but I do tell her that I have a similar situation, of 2 females and 1 male, and that like her, my young female is the most dominant. From that point on, I tell her what I do, as a regular human being without formal training, to manage my "pack". I even state that I also do NOT believe in the Dominant disciplining, but let me tell you… when I change from being the normal Mom to the Dominatrix Momma... well, my little Lola KNOWS that she must behave. No, I don't hurt her. I control her body and force her to settle down before I release her. And I don't "release the hound" so that she can wind up and tear into little Becca.

It's the dynamics of the family, of the pack, that wins.

I also asked the OP if perhaps her behavior could trigger the aggressive behavior... and then I cite an example of my personal experience... when I WAS GUILTY of creating a situation where Lola would dominate Becca.

Why don't I give treats in crates? Well Debra, you didn't ask me that question, but let me give you the answer: crates don't work well for my girls. If you've read my posts, you'd remember that when Lola went to PetSmart Hotel, they "upgraded" her into a private, SOUNDPROOF suite.... not because they were rewarding me, but because she cried SO loudly that you could hear her in the PetSmart store! And Becca.... well, when she was living in her last home with 3 other dogs, she was routinely crated and cried nonstop for hours. She was skin and bones when she came to my home, the poor darling. So for MY basenjis, Crates do NOT work. Crates are considered to be cruel and unusual punishment in their hearts (even though they've never been punished in them). I will NOT CRATE THEM.

@DebraDownSouth:

And my thoughts on rawhide, well– hope your dogs survive them, many don't.

And your thoughts on Rawhide? Well, you don't explain why you consider these treats that are sold everyday in the doggy treat aisle to be so horrible!?! You just imply that I'm giving them to my dogs to kill them? Perhaps you could have elaborated politely what your concerns are about rawhide, to educate me and others that are reading this string? If you re-read my post, you'll see that I wrote, "LIKE rawhide"… because... true confession.... I don't give them rawhide anymore. Becca cannot digest them: she's the first dog I've had that's become violently ill because of rawhide bones. They sell green-colored Raw-hide shaped treats available at your local big box that boast: "easy to digest!" . I recently realized: these wonderfully "safe" treats are made in China, and I don't feel comfortable giving my dogs treats from China. So, I wrote, "LIKE rawhide" because the treats are neither rawhide nor the green fake rawhide, but are actually bones with marrow in them. (I didn't see why I would need to explain all of this, so I merely used the phrase, "like rawhide", to imply a treat that's adored by basenjis.)

I have four children that I'm fiercely proud of. They are all independent, loving and caring people, and if you'd meet them on the street, chances are you'd enjoy their company. But how did I raise them? Were they bottle or breast fed? Did they wear cloth or disposable diapers? Did they use a bouncy chair, or a walker? Did they sleep on their stomachs or did they sleep on their backs? Whatever decisions I made for my kids: with a LOT of faith and a little luck~ they all turned out beautifully! However, if I would compare my playbook with another mom's playbook, I'm sure the decisions along the way would be much different, but the end result would be the same: happy, stable kids.

Or, for this forum: happy, stable, basenjis. Debra, It is NOT for you to factually declare that the OP and/or the Rescue Organization created this "problem".
@DebraDownSouth:

I am not even reading the other answers, so if repeat or contradicts, I don't know or care.
The problem here is you and the rescue who let you put another female in a home with a female you already KNOW wants to be the only female. Period.

It is not for any of us to tell another basenji owner that crating is a "solution". That having basenjis sleep with, or without humans, is the IDEAL night time ritual. That giving them rawhide or peanut butter IS better. Raw diet or Kibble? We must all experiment, and then we have to individually choose the best course for our dogs and for our families. But whatever decision we make, the answer is not simply black or white, or for this forum… the answer is not simply black and white, red and white, brindle, trindle, or tri.

What we SHOULD be doing in a forum like this, is asking questions and giving positive suggestions based upon our personal experiences, so that others can learn from them. The beauty of this forum is when we can learn from each other, without fear of reprisals when our opinions don't agree. (Has anyone else noticed the lack of participation on this forum board? Is it because people aren't reading, or because they are afraid to post? )

I apologize to the OP for the long rant, but I posted back to YOU so that you had an idea of how similar our situations are. Lola has lived with us for 18 months, and Becca has been here for 10 months. When Becca joined our "pack", Lola had been here for 8 months and felt like she was the Madonna of the household. Because WE have worked together, and our family dynamics are constantly evolving- Lola and Becca ARE, for the most part, happy sisters. Like human sisters, they have their moments… but the moments are definitely easier to handle with time. I hope that you can find the right solution and balance within your family, too.

Peace, out.

Patty

[lvoss]

Patty, I had very similar thoughts to Debra about this thread and your post. If the treats you give instigate bullying in your household then if you plan to continue to give them then you should separate your dogs so that they do not have the opportunity to practice the behavior otherwise, you are letting them practice a behavior that one day could lead to a major fight if you or someone else in your household messes up and gives the wrong dog the treat first or isn't quick enough to head off the bad behavior. You don't have to use a crate to separate them as Debra said, you can use separate rooms, use baby gates to gate off space but if you are going to continue to give high value chewies to them, give them the privacy they need to stop practicing guarding behavior. Otherwise, stop giving them and risking the major fight that is brewing every time you allow that stress and tension to occur.

For an article on the dangers of rawhide, http://www.maverickpetpartners.com/the-dangers-of-rawhide/

I was also very surprised that the OP and the rescue organization chose to place this young female into a household where the older female has shown same sex aggression in the past. This seems to have been a recipe for disaster from the start. Has the male shown same sex aggression? Might it have been a better choice to try another young male instead of a female?

[nomrbddgs]

I haven't read much of the other threads, but, here is my opinion and this may or may not help you. I had boy 1, whom was neutered due to health issues. Girl one came into household about and a half later, boxer came in (spayed, rescue) about four months later, girl 2 (she has a more active style of living and can run all day) came in (totally different line) about a year later. So at this time I have one neutered male 3 years approximately 1 is a year, boxer is 1 year and girl 2 puppy 12 weeks. Things went fine until first season between unspayed females. Things were tolerable for awhile. Girl 1 had a litter at 3 years, I didn't keep any puppies and things went back to okay between girls. Girl 2 had puppies following year and I kept 1 male, things were okay with girls as they both 'mothered' the male. Girl 1 had a litter following year, I decided to keep a female puppy and that is when things went from okay to bad. Fights escalated and girls 1 & 2 were trying to outdo each other where puppies were concerned. After the girls went into season (girls 1, 2 and puppy, with male in the house) things went to really, really bad. Since girl 1 was here first, and girl 1 would get along with girl 3, I decided to place girl 2 with my son. She is much happier.

Saying this, some girls just never get along with another female-at all. They want to be the only one in the house and that will never change. Before something detremental happens, I would either place the older female or give the rescue back. Personally, I would give the rescue back and learn to have to live with never having another female B in the house until she passes. She has only known you and your household for her whole life. The stress in your house must be very high, not only between the dogs, but to you too having to deal with this on a minute by minute day.

This is one of the hardest decisions you will have to make, but you have to do it for the health (mental and physical) of EVERYONE in the house.

I'm sorry this had to happen to you, good luck in your decision and let us know how it goes.

[DebraDownSouth]

@Patty:

Debra,
1::Perhaps you need to read this string tomorrow morning, when minds are fresh.

2:;Why don't I give treats in crates? Well Debra, you didn't ask me that question, but let me give you the answer: crates don't work well for my girls.
3::And your thoughts on Rawhide? Well, you don't explain why you consider these treats that are sold everyday in the doggy treat aisle to be so horrible!?! You just imply that I'm giving them to my dogs to kill them? Perhaps you could have elaborated politely what your concerns are about rawhide, to educate me and others that are reading this string?

4::I have four children that I'm fiercely proud of.

5::Or, for this forum: happy, stable, basenjis. Debra, It is NOT for you to factually declare that the OP and/or the Rescue Organization created this "problem".

It is not for any of us to tell another basenji owner that crating is a "solution". That having basenjis sleep with, or without humans, is the IDEAL night time ritual. That giving them rawhide or peanut butter IS better. Raw diet or Kibble? We must all experiment, and then we have to individually choose the best course for our dogs and for our families. But whatever decision we make, the answer is not simply black or white, or for this forum… the answer is not simply black and white, red and white, brindle, trindle, or tri.
Patty

First, Patty I wasn't foggy when I read it.

Second I said crates OR separate. :::::Why not give them peace in separate rooms or crates or crate her til they are done. :::::

Third, I was brief on rawhides because I have posted on it adnauseum and really figured you had already read it. However, even if you didn't, you can put rawhide, dogs, dangers into google and get it pretty fast. It is not an OPINION that dogs die, end up impacted and have surgery due to them. Your dig about them on the supermarket shelf– so are cigarettes. So are many harmful things. Not being ILLEGAL to sell does not equate with good. But you knew that. However, will post tons of info at end.

Fourth, There is a huge difference between parenting styles and dangers. Your tirade shows an inability to separate FACTS from opinions, so let me be clear. I can unequivocally tell you that research PROVES breast feeding is healthier. But I wouldn't ever say a parent is bad because for whatever reasons they don't do it. You seem to confuse presenting people with FACTS with something else. Ditto on the rest. Research proves/disproves old things, we all do the best we can hopefully when raising kids. But I never got mad or threw a tantrum if someone offered me information that MIGHT help me be a better parent. I used my head to evaluate the value. You seem, again, to think that people simply having information/facts/research is an insult to you and your ways.

Fifth, yeah it is for me to declare that the rescue was WRONG to do this placement. As a long time rescue person with a boat load of experience with dog-on-dog aggressive breeds, it IS for me to say they were wrong because it is not only my opinion, but it was very important to me that the OP shift from labeling the dog the problem or bad one or whatever and realize that the HUMANS shoved this dog into a situation that they should have known was not likely to work; that the HUMANS created an environment where a dog who has proven not to like other females in the home is forced to live with one. You bet it is for me or anyone else who thinks it to say it. Blaming a dog for how it is instead of saying WOW I messed up and the rescue messed up with this placement helps the OP to look at things not in blaming the dog but in understanding who created it. And since you like throwing children into it, I feel the same way when some parent is out with a tired cranky toddler doing their nails and screaming at the child for misbehaving. TAKE THE CHILD THE HELL HOME AND LET IT SLEEP. Schedule your non-crisis outings for when the child is rested or you have help entertaining them.

And finally, it is also for me to say what I think when someone suggests things that are detrimental or dangerous. I am sorry if my concern for the dogs and the OP overrides any desire to make nice and agree with advice that is unlikely to be helpful, in fact add a new issue (another dog) to it, and followed by your own training methods that continue to keep your dogs in stress rather than just manage the whole situation.

MANY times I have posted opinions and had others disagree. Often others have thought of an angle I didn't see. Posting opinions in forums presents us with the opportunity to teach and to learn and to consider other options. Any time your need to post and have people agree so you don't get your panties in a wad is greater than actually helping the person asking for it, something is wrong.

Now, you want to discuss my advice and where it was wrong, please do so. But try to leave the tirades out of it.

And again, for the rawhide, I was not trying to be snarky with you. I really was simply trying to not continue to beat a dead horse I have beaten a dozen times here in this forum already and one which is easily found on your own.

:::: old post on it:
1. Pet Health Info
FROM: >>Seaside Animal Care was recently awarded the 1999 National Practice of Excellence Award from Veterinary Medical Publishing and an educational grant from Pfizer. We are one of just over 50 practices ever to receive this honor!<<

WE DO NOT RECOMMEND GIVING YOUR PETS RAWHIDE CHEWS. They expand when wet and are the number one cause of intestinal obstruction at our hospital. They are poorly effective at "cleaning the teeth". Instead, we recommend chew-safe toys such as Nylabone? and Kong? products. Contact the hospital for additional information when selecting safe chew-toys for your loved one.<<

While I find it LUDICROUS that they first state they are harmless then say they have seen it ALL, this does indeed support that they are not uncommon :
2. >>From the
AAHA: American Animal Hospital Association
Miscellaneous Pet Care: Are raw hide chews safe?

Rawhide chews are pretty harmless. The problems come when they swallow them whole. They either choke on them, or the rawhide balls up in the stomach and causes gastritis or blockage. We've seen it all. Moderation is the key. One every once in a while is OK, but they shouldn't be included as a regular toy or part of the diet. In addition it's usually best to supervise or at least be nearby when your pet is chewing on any toy. <<

3. >> Diet - Treats and Snacks (Vetinfo, Dr Mike)
It is interesting to me that a number of veterinarians I have spoken with do say that they have seen problems associated with these toys. Their experience differs from mine. I practice in a rural area and sometimes I think that I just don't have enough patients to see all the problems that vets who practice in more crowded areas do. <<

4. OMG, they sell it yet their vets admit it is dangerous!!!
Acme Pet - Pet Health Questions Ask Acme Pet'sExperts

Q. I have a one year old mix JRT, she is a great dog. But the problem I have with her is that, whenever I give her a chewy like those basted sticks. I have to watch her because she will make it all soft, not bite a piece and eat it. She makes it soft and swallows half while she is still chewing the other end. She has almost choked on me twice. This happens with the square chewees too.

A. I would suggest you not give them to her anymore. Many dogs die of intestinal obstruction each year due to rawhide. Find something else, which is safer, to give her.<<

5. petcare
Okay, this is a petstore, not a vet but thought their concern worth noting!

In addition, we don't carry rawhide chews in order to assure the safest play experience for your pet. Rawhide chews, when gobbled or eaten in large quantities, can cause choking or possible obstruction in dogs. <<

6. vet@dog - Holidays - Chocolate and other dangerous goodies
FROM:
Dr. Lucy L. Pinkston, D.V.M.

Rawhide chews can lodge in the throat and cause choking, or a large piece may be swallowed, scraping and irritating the throat and esophagus on the way down. Once in the stomach or intestinal tract, a large piece of rawhide can also create a physical obstruction. An additional danger that is less widely known is the practice, in some countries, of using an arsenic-based preservative in the processing of rawhide toys. We recommend that, if you do purchase these products, stick to brands processed in the U.S. There has also been a recent FDA alert about the risk of Salmonella accociated with dog chew products made from pork or beef-derived materials: refer to the FDA advisory or call 1-888-INFO-FDA. See below (discussion on pigs' ears) for more details.<<

So the bottom line is, if it is SOMETIMES, even rarely, dangerous, and it isn't NECESSARY, why do it? Your choice, but lets have the facts to use to decide with.:::::::

[YodelDogs]

@MacPack:

You might consider re-homing your older female; it sounds like, though she has been there longer, that she is the 'odd man out'. She might find happiness as an only dog in a new situation. I know the idea of rehoming any of your dogs, especially the older one, probably seems unthinkable, please consider it.

I agree with this. It isn't fair to keep dogs that obviously hate one another in the same household. Things will always be tense and none of the dogs, nor any humans in the household, ever truly be able to relax. This is unhealthy for all parties involved.

It would be wise to consider either rehoming the older dog into an only-dog household or rehome both of the younger ones and keep the older dog as your only pet. I have rehomed many dogs and it is never easy to let go. But once the dog is in it's new home and I see that is it happier it is easier to deal with emotionally.

[nomrbddgs]

Can we stop making this about what I said, what you said and just answer the post! We've done this before and it gets us nowhere, we each have our own opinions.

[DebraDownSouth]

On the topic of neutering and whether it helps, I find this study a bit surprising:

http://www.caninesports.com/SNBehaviorBoneDataSnapShot.pdf

[eeeefarm]

I have heard about this, particularly the aggressive component. It certainly is counter intuitive. I would guess that a dog neutered later in life would show less difference to an intact, but most of us would suspect "more aggressive" compared to one neutered earlier, so that is an interesting finding. I know with horses that trainability is very high in stallions, but so is aggression compared to geldings. My own anecdotal experience with dogs has been that with three neutered later than normal in life it doesn't appear to have changed their temperaments in that regard. My bitches that were neutered relatively early have been my least aggressive. Interesting topic, for sure.

I concur with those who say once fighting has become intrenched it is likely better to re home one of the offenders. I do think it is often possible to head this sort of thing off if you nip it in the bud, but once there has been a nasty, serious clash, the line is crossed and I doubt it will ever be possible to trust these girls together (and girls are usually worse than boys once they have made up their minds).

[DebraDownSouth]

See, that's the thing– early neutered animals I have found so much less aggression. And while I KNOW that the stats on dog bites and the very high rate with unneutered males has as much to do with who typically owns them as it does with their being unneutered, I still have always found hormones play a role. There are studies on bitches spayed at certain times in heat cycle and very increased aggression. But this one is perplexing. Will be interested to see more peer reviews on it and studies.

[Patty]

Personally I'd separate these 2 girls. You've said yourself that it could end up them killing each other. Do you want this on your conscience? Basenjis, and especially bitches in my opinion, will fight to the death. I see no point in giving further advice as I'm not sure that there is any other solution.

I agree with Debra, if you don't have facilities where you can keep these girls apart, one should be rehomed and without any other dog . Which of course is a decision only you can make.

We do have some rescues here that just rehome dogs without assessing them or the prospective purchasers.

[sherryk]

Hi, my oldest girl was always laid back. When she walks into a room she almost floats thru it. The male and the young female always have to shoot off like rockets when they move from room to room. Kandi the young female always has to be with me. She follows me everywhere and hides behind me when sasha comes around. Sasha always starts the fights by walking in very slow and defensive. She always challenges kandi. Now all 3 basenjis are fighting for my attention by lying on my lap and switching places every 5 minutes. And yes, when they start to growl, i raise my voice and usually they will calm down. But just in the blink of an eye the worst fight can break out. The young female craves so much attention and the biggest problem is her and the male are so hyper, when they are settled down everyone is fine. And yes like you i love them all so much that i cannot imagine rehoming any of them. I do let them know i am the alpha dog in the pack and they do respect this. If the 2 girls could just stop challenges . By the way the young female is super charged. She never stops playing. Since she came she sleepsin my bed every night while the older female sleeps with my daughter. The male goes back and forth to keep peace. We have to keep the bedroom doors shut or they will all keep running back and forth and fight. And you should hear them growl at each other thru the door.

[tanza]

IMO you should re-home the younger female. IMO it is not fair to the one that was there first to have to defend her territory when she is clearly not happy about the new bitch in the home. It sounds, if I am reading this right that your older girl got along OK when just the male.

I have had to make those choices before, not easy, but it was the younger one that left each time, regardless if they were causing the problem or not

[jaclempner]

I have two basenjis - male and female, and a young mixed breed female. My basenjis lives on separate floors. The male was the first in the house. A year later I got the female so he would have a playmate and all was fine at first. But slowly the female started bullying him. I wish I had been more aware of it at first - I might have been able to intervene before it escalated to where it is now, but I can't let them in the same room. I'm convinced she would kill him if she could. He's terrified of her and not much of a fighter. She can be fierce. They both got along with the new dog at first, but then Rose started picking on her a bit. The luck here is that Gracie weighs 20 lbs more than Rose. She'll never start a fight, but can always stop it. As a result, Rose has learned not to pick on her, but she also won't play with her now that she's full grown because Grace has become too much for her with the size difference. The both played with Grace when she was small.

Because I have a multi-floor house I've been able to manage things with gates. I love them both so much that I didn't want to part with either of them. I will enjoy it, though, when the gates can come down.