Can't seem to get it right

[basilboy7]

@eeeefarm:

Ouch! I saw this after my last post. You need to get on top of this while walking. Can you not dissuade him with the leash by holding him away from you, or do you not see it coming? I have had Basenjis that would attack each other when they couldn't get at what they really wanted…....usually another dog that was barking at them.....and this looks very much like that. Transferred aggression. He likely wants to chase the car. In the short term, I think I would invest in a muzzle. No fun getting bitten when you are just trying to walk your dog!

I didn't see it coming… he's so inconsistent... sometimes cars will pass and he won't even lift his nose from the ground and his step won't even change. Other times he acts as if he's going to take off. He was calm and then bolted, catching himself on the leash... sometimes this happens then I stand still and say heel and he either sits or comes back to me and gets a "good boy" so as I was doing that.. he ran back to me and around me.. I guess he saw that he wanted to bolt again but knew he could so he bit the back of my leg... hardest bite so far. I'll try the toy thing but sometimes when he bites hard it feels like it's intentional... and i'm not sure he can be distracted but i'll try it. Thanks for the advice.

[eeeefarm]

@basilboy7:

I didn't see it coming… he's so inconsistent... sometimes cars will pass and he won't even lift his nose from the ground and his step won't even change. Other times he acts as if he's going to take off.

My currant Basenji is reactive to cars…....I think he wants to chase them. And as you say, not every car. Usually with him it's one that is unusually noisy or somehow sounds a bit different. If I am not alert, he will twirl around when they go by......just a quick "spin in place", which I try to discourage. If there aren't many cars, you could try asking him to sit when one approaches, but obviously if you are on a busy road you won't get much walking done with this approach.

I think your little guy does need some outside help. From what you are describing, you need to get a handle on it before he gets much older. Sorry I can't be of more assistance, but without actually seeing you guys interact it is difficult to give advice.

[tanza]

Again, I am going to suggest a behavorist ASAP to assist. You are having far too many problems with this pup and I would fear it will only get worse if you don't get some help very quickly

[Patty]

I agree with Pat. It seems to me that you've got into a position with Basil that's become too repetitive and it needs an outside onlooker to see what is not going right. Your reactions need to be consistent - it's no good trying one thing -doesn't work - try another.

Having said that the behaviourist should be somebody, hopefully, experienced with Basenjis. Force won't work with a Basenji.

Please keep us posted.

[EndeavorV10]

@krunzer:

yeah the stuff works good for chewing and licking

I had a German Shepard that LOVED that stuff, I seem to go from one crazy dog to the next! :eek:

[thunderbird8588]

just reading your posts about Basil. Sharron mentions doing a high pitched yelp when he bites, be careful about the pitch you use. I did this when Malaika bit me in play and i found it triggered her prey drive or something and she came back at me twice as bad.
Do you think he's biting your leg whilst out because he is so excited by the traffic ?
Again with Malaika, when she was a pup and still occassionaly she will start to be silly whilst walking on her lead and begin biteing it, if i don't stop it straight away she becomes over excited and will bite my leg causing a bruise.
Both our Basenjis are very interested in traffic, it's as if they see it as prey. They particularly like tractors, motorbikes and tankers. I try jerking the lead a little when they lunge and say "Leave it"
I wish you the best with your boy and hope you find a good behaviourist.

[basilboy7]

@thunderbird8588:

just reading your posts about Basil. Sharron mentions doing a high pitched yelp when he bites, be careful about the pitch you use. I did this when Malaika bit me in play and i found it triggered her prey drive or something and she came back at me twice as bad.
Do you think he's biting your leg whilst out because he is so excited by the traffic ?
Again with Malaika, when she was a pup and still occassionaly she will start to be silly whilst walking on her lead and begin biteing it, if i don't stop it straight away she becomes over excited and will bite my leg causing a bruise.
Both our Basenjis are very interested in traffic, it's as if they see it as prey. They particularly like tractors, motorbikes and tankers. I try jerking the lead a little when they lunge and say "Leave it"
I wish you the best with your boy and hope you find a good behaviourist.

Thank you for your comment. Now I do not yelp because as you said… it made him bite more. Now I hold his mouth closed until he calms down and say "no" in a stern, low voice. This seems to make him understand. On walks he does get excited by cars sometimes... other times he won't even look up. He gets excited when he sees people and other dogs as well... and even garbage and things on the ground that he can't get to... anything he wants and I prevent him from getting to. I don't know how to get him distracted from things like that because it's like he's obsessed over. Sometimes I can say "leave it" to a car coming and he won't look but as far as people, garbage and dogs... he hears nothing.

[tanza]

@basilboy7:

Thank you for your comment. Now I do not yelp because as you said… it made him bite more. Now I hold his mouth closed until he calms down and say "no" in a stern, low voice. This seems to make him understand. On walks he does get excited by cars sometimes... other times he won't even look up. He gets excited when he sees people and other dogs as well... and even garbage and things on the ground that he can't get to... anything he wants and I prevent him from getting to. I don't know how to get him distracted from things like that because it's like he's obsessed over. Sometimes I can say "leave it" to a car coming and he won't look but as far as people, garbage and dogs... he hears nothing.

Holding his mouth closed is not a good option… we have all recommended that you get a behavorist to help you... you need to be serious about that and do so or you will be in for big trouble as he gets older.

[basilboy7]

@tanza:

Holding his mouth closed is not a good option… we have all recommended that you get a behavorist to help you... you need to be serious about that and do so or you will be in for big trouble as he gets older.

Oh no, I don't do this when he has attacked my hand (he hasn't since)… just when he's play biting because he gets more excited and bites harder if I don't. And I contacted a behaviorist who will start a session after September 25th with me.

[lvoss]

September 25th is over a month away. We have been telling you for over a month already that you need help ASAP not a month from then and definitely not a month from now.

The techniques you are using are not effective techniques. You should not hold his muzzle closed even for play biting. Read this article, http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/teaching-bite-inhibition

If a behaviorist is a month away then at least get in touch with a good trainer.

[basilboy7]

@lvoss:

September 25th is over a month away. We have been telling you for over a month already that you need help ASAP not a month from then and definitely not a month from now.

The techniques you are using are not effective techniques. You should not hold his muzzle closed even for play biting. Read this article, http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/teaching-bite-inhibition

If a behaviorist is a month away then at least get in touch with a good trainer.

Okay first of all, I contacted the Humane Society where my sister had her dog trained right away and their next class date was August 21st which I'm still enrolled for. They didn't have any behaviorists for one on one so I came on here to ask how to find one, I also talked to my vet who gave me the number for the lady I contacted. We have been playing phone tag for awhile and so I emailed her a couple days ago. She said she cannot start a session until September 13th at which time I will be in Boston until the 24th. I am not being a irresponsible owner… I am taking all of your advice that I can, reading and reading. I bought a book, I talked to the vet, I post a lot on here... I contacted a behaviorist. I have tried the yelping at which point he likes it and gets more excited... I told my vet this and she advised me to close his mouth until he calms down which I find works. Feel free to fly to Winnipeg to give me a training lesson.

[lvoss]

I am sorry that I sound snippy but the longer the behavior is practiced the harder it will be to change. Also, you may have come here for help but it is unreasonable to expect that a bunch of strangers on a international forum are going to be able to track down local resources for you.

But here goes two trainers in Winnipeg that do Private Behavior Consults.

http://www.politepaws.ca/private.html
http://www.canadascanineacademy.com/

[sharronhurlbut]

Physical restrain will make issues worse. Please, see if you can get one of the folks Lisa recommends to see him asap.

[thunderbird8588]

Basil may become less obsessed with rubbish on the floor as he gets older. Malaika was realy bad for picking things up when we were out, especialy if there was a pile of horse poo down the lane. With lots of practice at leave it she is much better now.
Have you tried saying "Leave it !" and then rewarding with a high value treat if Basil manages to achieve it ? When i rewarded i said "Good leave " , which i know sounds odd but it describes what behaviour was good. With leave it the timing is crucial, you need to get in there very quickly. We practice this lots at training, Kwame is quite good in class but hasn't generalised it outside yet

[Buddys Pal]

Well don't bite back for sure! Taking away the food after you give it to him will only aggravate the situation and reinforce his mistrust and confusion of you in his world. It is hard to pinpoint if you are doing something wrong since an objective observation of the interaction of your relationship should be done by a professional. Sometimes the yelping et all that works for other breeds does not work for the B. Think of it from his perspective, they are constantly observing body language, how are you standing-straight up or bent over him??? for example. They do make sounds with each other and other dogs, but mostly it is always posturing that happens. Um, I saw once on DOGS 101 where a trainer recommended putting butter on your hands and let the puppy know that hands are for licking not having contact with teeth. I have yet to try this, just an interesting concept. Maybe clicker training to reinforce the good behaviors and change the bad? Look on utube for some info, but I highly recommend a trainer for help in the timing etc. Also, what about exercise-physical and mental???? I could go on, but who like to read too long??? go to my profile and contact me via email if you would like…Deb

[eeeefarm]

O.K. I am going to be the dissenting opinion here. While I agree outside help seems necessary ASAP, I don't agree with all of the advice at the link.

@basilboy7:

I told my vet this and she advised me to close his mouth until he calms down which I find works.

Sometimes you have to go with what works, particularly when you haven't been able to get the correct response the "right" way. Bottom line, you need to get control of the situation and stop allowing the behavior to become a habit.

In practice, most people are not going to be diligent enough to maintain the soft mouth Dr. Dunbar talks about, so IMHO it is better to simply teach "no mouthing" right from the get go. And BTW, Dr. Dunbar does not rule out physical restraint. Specifically, he says, "It is much better for you to walk away from the pup than to physically restrain him…."

I would suggest that some methods do not work with some dogs, and if you are not getting the response you hoped for it is time to try a different approach. Physical restraint may not be ideal but does the trick with some dogs. I know people who teach their pups not to mouth in exactly that way (holding the mouth closed). I've used it myself in some cases and it did not make things worse for me. I do think it makes it clear to the dog what you are objecting to. What you don't want to do is make it into a game where the dog nips and withdraws so you can't hold his mouth closed.

As regards the "yelping" only increasing the behavior, I think we may have inadvertently caused confusion with squeaky toys. By teaching our dogs to mouth things and be rewarded with squeaks, we may be training them to bite hard enough to get an entertaining sound as a reward!

[basilboy7]

@eeeefarm:

O.K. I am going to be the dissenting opinion here. While I agree outside help seems necessary ASAP, I don't agree with all of the advice at the link.

Sometimes you have to go with what works, particularly when you haven't been able to get the correct response the "right" way. Bottom line, you need to get control of the situation and stop allowing the behavior to become a habit.

In practice, most people are not going to be diligent enough to maintain the soft mouth Dr. Dunbar talks about, so IMHO it is better to simply teach "no mouthing" right from the get go. And BTW, Dr. Dunbar does not rule out physical restraint. Specifically, he says, "It is much better for you to walk away from the pup than to physically restrain him…."

I would suggest that some methods do not work with some dogs, and if you are not getting the response you hoped for it is time to try a different approach. Physical restraint may not be ideal but does the trick with some dogs. I know people who teach their pups not to mouth in exactly that way (holding the mouth closed). I've used it myself in some cases and it did not make things worse for me. I do think it makes it clear to the dog what you are objecting to. What you don't want to do is make it into a game where the dog nips and withdraws so you can't hold his mouth closed.

As regards the "yelping" only increasing the behavior, I think we may have inadvertently caused confusion with squeaky toys. By teaching our dogs to mouth things and be rewarded with squeaks, we may be training them to bite hard enough to get an entertaining sound as a reward!

And I have tried walking away and ending the play session but when I walk back it seems he has just contained his excitement long enough for when I return and the biting begins again. When I walk around the back yard, he now rarely jumps and bites at my ankles… when he does, I stop and look away from him... this makes him realize that he can't get my attention by doing this. When he stops, I continue walking. Now I can brush his teeth without him trying to mouth my hands... we're still working on the hair brush without biting. I am working diligently to bond with him and make sure that he knows my hands aren't for biting and punishment only... I hand feed him for most meals. We also practice impulse control which he's getting really good at that I think we will move to his favourite treats instead of just kibble in the coming days. I haven't walked him since he's been sick but we've done a lot of playing in the back yard. His mental stimulation is his treat dispenser or when I scatter his meal across the yard and of course our training. He will now sit without a treat in hand and will lay down immediately when asked from a sit position with a treat in hand. We will be starting to work on stay. I am also going to look up more information on the command "settle" which I think will help and will be working more with "leave it" and reward. Thank you for your suggestions... frankly, I'm doing the best that I can.

[eeeefarm]

It sounds to me like you are making progress. Good for you! The more observant you are of your dog…...and of how he responds to your actions......the faster you will progress. I think you are on the right track.

[Patty]

I agree, you are trying your best with Basil and that you've made lots of progress, it's just that with the problems you're having an outside view is needed. We are not criticizing you - it's just that we care about you and Basil.

I disagree about the yelps. If the sound you made just gets hum going it's probably made at the wrong pitch. However thats that. I feel strongly too about the mouth holding - if you do this and he catches his lips with his teeth it would be have the opposite result to the one you expect.

I agree with eeeefarm - to be observant of your dog is being on the right track but roll on September!

[Buddys Pal]

Well, it does sound like you are doing the best. This is just a forum and the info given and then taken into action on your part may be miles away because they (we) are not living right there…. Just keep up the best that you are doing. Wish you all the best....it can be frustrating beyond what we would understand because the situation you have with Basil is similar BUT WAAAAY different then we ever had;;;;we never had Basil!!!!!!!!! I am (we are?) behind you and wish you good luck. It is a handful. Knowing you get on the forum to vent is why it exists I guess....Take the info and apply it as best you can before the behaviorist or trainer gets involved. Remember, dogs, even Basenjis can learn something all over again with the correct input-HANG IN THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kudos!!!:)