For Sale/Waiting List Post Rules: Read First

[Quercus]

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That can be kind of a sticky wicket....there are lots of different opinions on what makes a good breeder (see the good breeder vs. bad breeder thread) I wouldn't feel comfortable using my own set of guidelines in a forum like this....but if other people were interested in building a consensus, I would be happy to help.

[lvoss]

The BCOA website has an interactive guide available at http://www.basenjiclub.com/learn Part of the guide is a section called screening breeders.

Also, many people just starting to research the breed may not be aware that many responsible breeders maintain a waiting list and pups are often spoken for before they are born. It may be appropriate to have a place for breeders to post information on the parents of an upcoming litter with contact information so people can get on those waiting lists.

[Quercus]

That would be a great link to have available in this section, Lisa. I'd forgotten there was so much info there. Thanks for posting that.

I like your idea about listing upcoming litters too…that could allow buyers to have discussion with different people without feeling the pressure, of having to commit right away.

[annandael]

Here's a question…why do you insist on us posting our telephone numbers?

Also, who is to protect us from identity theft? I have been informed all one needs is a name and number.

[Alex]

Hi Annandael,

We do not think that a phone number/first name can cause identity theft as phone numbers are publicly available information.

We are not asking sellers to provide their social security or credit information in the for sale post. Those things can cause ID theft for sure.

If the post is made by a legitimate breeder who has nothing to hide, we do not see why he/she would have a problem posting their phone number.

Most of the breeder websites that we looked at had a phone number listed on there, so potential buyers feel more comfortable and can talk to a real person.

We will look into this some more and maybe either hide the contact info in the post for unregestered users or make an exception to the rule.

Thank you for bringing this up.

[YodelDogs]

I like the basic for sale/waiting list format but I am unclear why weight is a required listing?

[annandael]

Well as my husband is military and it is my private cell phone number that isn't listed…I do not feel comfortable posting it over a public forum or my website. If someone would like to ask more about my plans, they may e-mail me and I will be happy to give my number to them.

When I have a LAN I will probably post that on my site...but until then I will not.

And yes, the weight information is interesting...

[JazzysMom]

I would think the weight information just helps to give an idea of the general appearance of the dogs. If the parents are 35 lb dogs, then you may be looking at larger-than-standard puppies. Or if they are 18 lbs, then there may be issues with that as well.
Anyway, it made sense to me to list the weight info.
I could be way off base as to the reasons though; it was just my uneducated WAG.

[lvoss]

I was thinking the same thing but weight really doesn't tell you about size. When I went to evaluate a rescue she was right around standard height but had been so overfed she weighed 40 pounds. I had never seen a dog so fat. I also don't know many people that weigh their dogs on a regular basis. Mine are only weighed when we go to the vet.

Lisa

[JazzysMom]

Maybe, but it can give you an idea of the general health and care that the parents have received also.

[Quercus]

Well, most healthy basenjis are going to be roughly the same weight and height…and if it matters to you whether your basenji is 15 vs.17 inches high, or 18 lbs vs. 25 lbs you'd better be meeting the breeders' dogs in person...so you have a better idea what your puppy may look like.

[JazzysMom]

I'd like to think that people would meet the buyer's dogs in person anyway before actually purchasing….but realize that's not always possible in long distance purchases.
But, if I see the breeder's adult dogs are all over or underweight,yes I would have a concern as to either the general health or the care they are given that may affect the health of the puppies.
If the average weight for a dog is around 24 lbs, then yes, I'd want to look twice at one that is only 18 lbs, or a bitch that is 15 lbs. Those are pretty small animals to be choosing for breeding. Are they too young? Are they undernourished? Poorly bred? Or just small? Can't answer those questions w/out more information or a personal visit, but it is a starting point.
But you are right, if those things don't matter to the buyer than it's irrelevent information. For those for whom it DOES matter, what is the harm in listing it?

[Quercus]

Oh, there is no harm in listing it. If I was looking for a puppy, it just wouldn't be a question I would consider asking. I would be much more interested in how tall the parents were, honestly. My bitches range from 19lbs - 20lbs…three are thin/healthy...one is chubby. My male looks perfect at 22lbs...but some would consider that thin just looking at the numbers.

My thought was that anyone who is that concerned about the weight of the parents might be looking for a show puppy...and there would be so many other components involved in the stature of the dog that stating just the weight wouldn't be that helpful in any sort of evaluation.

You make a good point about the health of the parents based on weight though...I hadn't thought of it that way. We definitely agree that everyone should try to meet their prospective breeder and dogs before purchasing

[JazzysMom]

We definitely agree that everyone should try to meet their prospective >>breeder and dogs before purchasing

That sure made the sale for us when we were looking. We met one breeder who'd sounded great via a webpage, but upon visiting the place we were immediately turned off.
And one visit with Bryan was all it took to get us {okay, well, me} excited about the dogs again, and make a decision!
We visited one additional breeder, and were happy enough with what we saw there also. But there was little doubt that it would be Bryan we got our pup from!

[khanis]

I think the weights were just to get a rough idea.
I had one bitch that never hit 21# until she was pregnant.. and spent most of her list at 19#.. what I considered "race weight" for a 16.5" bitch.

Then I have my "Burner" boy, who at 17.5" tall, and nary an ounce of fat, weights in at 30#. He is solid muscle.. and you can see it when he walks (sometimes we wonder if he is ont he home gym when we aren't looking!).

I think for qualifications, a good idea could be regional and national club involvement. If breeders do not belong to member clubs, one should begin to wonder why…

Health testing information would be GREAT to add to the list of info for upcoming litters and dogs for sale or adoption.

[Alex]

Hi Kathy,

Thank you for your suggestions, we will add them shortly.

[dmcarty]

I think that something that outlines the typical process so that buyers are aware of how things work with responsible reputable breeders would be helpful. I know that I bought my first basenji in the early 80's without much screening information. I didn't know what to look for and paid the price for that. Maybe some sort of statement on each option like:

Puppy - typically basenji breedres maintain a list of interested people. This is so that they are certain that the puppies they produce will have good homes waiting for them. Blank slate - that you can mess up if you are not firm and consistant.

Breeder Return - sometimes a breeder gets a puppy back for a variety of reasons like job transfer, change in living arrangements, military service etc. Still a youngish dog - screened by breeder so you will know if there are any issues.

Retired Show dog - a dog that has been shown to it's Championship or a dog who was kept for showing and didn't like it or did not grow up to be quite what the breeder expected. You get an animal used to traveling, arround people, pretty decently socialized, walks on a lead.

Young Adult- What you see is what you get - how they are is likely a good reflection of their personality especially good to determine if kids and dog work.

Rescue - can be a gem in the rough - may not have full histroy but typically committed basenji folks will be there to help you if the dog came through one of the networks.

Pet stores - you get no support from a breeder, likely came from a puppy mill, vet check doesn't mean that the puppy was screened for the likely things that might crop up in any dog or specifically in basenjis. If you buy from a pet store - you essentially support puppy mills - you may 'save' this one but you will send a message that hey these dogs sell and more will be there the next week.

Anyway something like that - might be useful to have as a readable document. Feel free to tweak, edit or dump.

[lvoss]

Diane this is a good idea. It would be good for buyers to be able to easily reference a document for information about what an OFA number means, what to look for in a contract, etc.

[Quercus]

That is a good idea Diane! Also include what we know as "backyard" breeders. People who purchase two or three basenjis to just produce puppies to make money; with no regard for temperament screening, genetic health screening, and preservation of the breed. These breeders who don't expect much commitment from their puppy buyers, and don't give them much support back. Basically, send your money, I'll send you a puppy.

I think it is really important that puppy buyers know that in most cases you will pay the same for a well bred puppy from a breeder that will give you a lifetime of support for you and your Basenji, as you will from the breeder that 'doesn't do all that fancy show stuff'….'or just sells pets'. The large majority of responsible breeders keeps a puppy or two for showing, and the rest of puppies go to pet homes, whether they could be shown or not. We don't charge more for them because their sibs are show dogs.

In the case of a responsible breeder, you will be getting a BARGAIN for the same price, because we aren't making money! The cost of the puppy basically is covering the cost it takes to produce it. Vet care, quality food, genetic screening of the parents (annually for some diseases); the cost of getting the best match for the bitch being bred can be expensive.

I think it is important to get the message out that **there is **no reason, once you know better, to buy from someone who isn't doing the very best they can to preserve our breed in health, temperament and type (what makes a Basenji, a Basenji)

I know everyone probably gets tired of a few of us repeating, and repeating the same POV…but it is we who end up trying to clean up the mess of dogs being produced and procured irresponsibly.

[lvoss]

Maybe a Buyer's Guide with section like Why Choose a Responsible Breeder, DeMystifying Health Testing, What are you Paying For, Making Sense of Alphabet Soup (What does that Title Mean), etc, with a glossary of terms at the end.