@senjisilly just now saw your reply. Thanks for the pedigree website. I knew about it and it’s a great resource.
What does it mean to add genes?
-
The 1/32 is a bit simplistic. Some genes have a bigger impact then others. And with a good breeding program, some other mixes with fresh imports would have paired to the other mixes, so percentages will allways be higher.
I'm working for allmost 15 years now with Fiji Iguana's. 15 bloodlines in Europe, of wich 12 are used for breeding them (3 in zoo's that won't co-operate). DNA test are done with allmost every pairing, carefull breeding program… But we just can't keep them healthy. Problems are becomming more and more common. Bad sight, dwarfism, pigment changes... Without new bloodlines, it is impossible to keep a species healthy for multiple generations. In the best case, you end up with rather healthy animals that differ greatly from the original animals.
Same will happen to the Basenji. The Basenji's we have here, are no longer the same dogs that started it. If they would now present most people one of the Basenji's that started the breed, they would say it is not a real Basenji, that it is a Basenji type of dog or even a mutt.
So seems rather foulish to expect to find show quality dogs in African villages now that are exactly the same as the ones we have here and can be used in breeding programs without having to worry their offspring wouldn't be able to win some prices at shows. Better to take a step back at first, and then to be able to take 2 steps forward if you ask me. -
I really doubt the COI on Native Stock is very high. I would be interested to hear from someone like Dr Jo, about what she has observed about breeding in the native villages but we cannot apply terms like BYB to native stock, they are not kept, used, nor bred anything like what we do.
I also encourage people to go through lots of old magazines and see how much diversity we have lost. If you compare Native Stock strictly to what is seen today, I think most people would be sorely disappointed. If you compare Native Stock to the natural variations observed in past decades, I think you will begin to see that some fall within the spectrum of expected characteristics and others clearly fall outside. The problem is that with the narrowing of the gene pool many are becoming less accepting of variation which will only serve to further reduce the genepool.
I think that before we can adequately address how to manage the inclusion of Native Stock, we need more education about developing breeding programs in general, and why it is good to have different people using different approaches. Once we have a good grip on what a breeding program is, then we can move into how does Native Stock and preservation of founders fit in.
-
<'If they would now present most people one of the Basenji's that started the breed, they would say it is not a real Basenji, that it is a Basenji type of dog or even a mutt.'>
I suppose we are lucky here in that there are fewer dogs but I'm sure that this could also be said in the US - there are still Basenjis in the UK that resemble some original imports and no-one but no-one says they are not real Basenjis or mutts. Unfortunately most breeders here now have lost sight of breeding for the breed's sake ring and hence the breed and its standard does and has changed.
Unfortunately, unlike the early 1900s, there are very few areas now where no other breed has been introduced.
I think this is a never ending but rather important thread - there is such a variety of opinion and I don't think we'll persuade others with opposite views. Nevertheless I find it very interesting to hear opinions from every one.
-
I agree Patty. I am learning so much reading this thread. Where would non registered african dogs fall into all of this? Think of them as village dogs with nothing to add to the gene pool or watch to see what they produce and go from there?
-
I really doubt the COI on Native Stock is very high. I would be interested to hear from someone like Dr Jo, about what she has observed about breeding in the native villages but we cannot apply terms like BYB to native stock, they are not kept, used, nor bred anything like what we do.
I also encourage people to go through lots of old magazines and see how much diversity we have lost. If you compare Native Stock strictly to what is seen today, I think most people would be sorely disappointed. If you compare Native Stock to the natural variations observed in past decades, I think you will begin to see that some fall within the spectrum of expected characteristics and others clearly fall outside. The problem is that with the narrowing of the gene pool many are becoming less accepting of variation which will only serve to further reduce the genepool.
I think that before we can adequately address how to manage the inclusion of Native Stock, we need more education about developing breeding programs in general, and why it is good to have different people using different approaches. Once we have a good grip on what a breeding program is, then we can move into how does Native Stock and preservation of founders fit in.
I couldn't agree more. I would imagine that most breeders who have been doing this for twenty or more years might not be interested in a general 'breeding program education'; but maybe (hopefully) people who are newer, or reluctant to jump in might be. I think this is a really interesting idea Lisa, and one that should be seriously considered for the future.
-
I would think the African bloodlines Are as inbred as you can get. We are importing what equate to African BYB oops litters. There is a reason they look like the fl rescue dogs. Better to import well bred dogs from other countries with established bloodlines is generic inbreeding health issues is your worry
Sorry but the bloodlines in europe and other countries fall back to most of the same dogs. Nor do I think there is any way the african bloodlines are inbred. Pretty much shaking my head over that one.
The 1/32 is a bit simplistic. Some genes have a bigger impact then others. And with a good breeding program, some other mixes with fresh imports would have paired to the other mixes, so percentages will allways be higher.
…
Same will happen to the Basenji. The Basenji's we have here, are no longer the same dogs that started it....
expect to find show quality dogs in African villages now that are exactly the same as the ones we have here and can be used in breeding programs without having to worry their offspring wouldn't be able to win some prices at shows. Better to take a step back at first, and then to be able to take 2 steps forward if you ask me.Thank you. Exactly.
I remember looking at the polar bear zoo population. They have a program that actually keeps track of all the bears, who are related, and work to keep the zoo breeding program as diverse as possible.
LOL not that anyone cares, but about 10 yrs ago someone said "Debra can find anything…I bet she can find out how many polar bears are in zoos in Brazil." That's how I came to contact and learn about the above.
-
I couldn't agree more. I would imagine that most breeders who have been doing this for twenty or more years might not be interested in a general 'breeding program education'; but maybe (hopefully) people who are newer, or reluctant to jump in might be. I think this is a really interesting idea Lisa, and one that should be seriously considered for the future.
And yet, wouldn't it be marvelous if the older folks took on a "guardian of the breed" view and dug in, dedicated a part of their breeding program precisely to saying–- okay not going to be winning for a generation or 2 or 3, but I'm helping the breed long term. Or if BCOA helped support more African percentage classes (ie 1/4, 1/2 and pure). I am not sure if AKC would allow such classes as part of their shows, or how it would work.
-
I also encourage people to go through lots of old magazines and see how much diversity we have lost. If you compare Native Stock strictly to what is seen today, I think most people would be sorely disappointed. If you compare Native Stock to the natural variations observed in past decades, I think you will begin to see that some fall within the spectrum of expected characteristics and others clearly fall outside. The problem is that with the narrowing of the gene pool many are becoming less accepting of variation which will only serve to further reduce the genepool.
Maybe this is what the fancy needs education on, or at least a reminder of how much variation there used to be, or perhaps should be? Maybe now since more information about the breed history is being added to the BCOA website, new people will have access to the information, but I'm not sure the appreciation would be there. There would probably be a lot of value of an organized breeder mentoring program, particularly from this perspective.
-
And yet, wouldn't it be marvelous if the older folks took on a "guardian of the breed" view and dug in, dedicated a part of their breeding program precisely to saying–- okay not going to be winning for a generation or 2 or 3, but I'm helping the breed long term. Or if BCOA helped support more African percentage classes (ie 1/4, 1/2 and pure). I am not sure if AKC would allow such classes as part of their shows, or how it would work.
What my mind keeps coming back to is that there would need to be a vision of what they are trying to accomplish in the end (darn corporate america brainwashing :rolleyes:). If diversity is basically providing more choices, what does success look like? How many more choices is meaningful? How you know the breed is sufficiently more diverse than it was before? I like Quercus's suggestion around taking inspiration from the zoo world, I bet a lot information could be mined from there as well as other dog breeds.
-
I couldn't agree more. I would imagine that most breeders who have been doing this for twenty or more years might not be interested in a general 'breeding program education'; but maybe (hopefully) people who are newer, or reluctant to jump in might be. I think this is a really interesting idea Lisa, and one that should be seriously considered for the future.
raises hand I have only been breeding 19 years <vbg>but I would love to go to a seminar on this topic. True, I have strong opinions on some topics but I am open minded about new ideas that are presented in a logical manner. I would find this topic very interesting.</vbg>
-
Related to Dr Jo's comment on the other thread that prompted this one, I also keep getting the perception that the health of the breed is doomed and the only way we can save it is through importing native stock. I'm not sure where it comes from, maybe because I haven't been around this for very long at all.
I have grown weary with people using "health" as a reason to import new dogs. Thanks to the diligence of breeders from early on until present, the Basenji is one of the healthiest pure breeds there is. I do feel that importation can be important to the breed as a whole but not for the purpose of "improving" health.
People seem to forget that imports do not come with researchable pedigrees and therefore we have absolutely no idea of what health issues they could potentially carry. We got lucky with the Avongaras as they turned out to be quite healthy overall but it could easily have gone in the opposite direction.
For clarity, I am not saying imports are unhealthy, just that inherited health problems are an unknown factor for several generations, long enough for recessives to appear.
-
Lisa, thank you for starting this thread. It is fascinating and I am intrigued by people's perceptions and beliefs about this issue. In fact, there are many layers of important discussion points with this topic. I would like to see us vet many of them in discussion.
I apologize for not joining in sooner, but I've got an awful lot on my plate right now and only able to check in online intermittently. Even then, I only check here once in a while.
There has been a lot put forward in this thread and some very complex issues. I hope to come back throughout the weekend or early next week and comment on a couple of points that have been made.
But until then, for those interested in some excellent, thought-provoking reading, I strongly recommend that you take the time to go through a couple very good articles.In no particular order:
FROM THE EDITOR by Wanda Pooley, published in the BCOA Bulletin magazine, Vol. XLVI, No. 3, July/Aug/Sept 2009, page 3.
Wanda did an analysis of the number of Basenjis registered in the AKC stud book over the 10-year period 2000-2009. The numbers she presents illustrate a steady decline and a difference of 47.47% between years 2000-2009. This indicates a shrinking population of breeding stock.WHAT IS DIVERSITY REALLY? by Mary Lou Kenworthy, published in The Modern Basenji Worldwide, Vol. 1, No. 2, Summer 2011, page 3.
Mary Lou comments that,
"the main problem [she] noticed is that most people try to apply population genetics to individual breeding programs and cannot separate the two in their minds."
She is a proponent for breeders establishing separate breeding lines. She says,
"If breeders create and monitor their own lines, the breed, as a whole, will prosper. No breeder can maintain diversity by himself, and any attempt to do so will lead to disaster for the breeder and the breed. It takes a network of breeders working together with individual lines to maintain diversity."IN DEFENSE OF BREEDING by Chris Maxka, published in The Modern Basenji Worldwide, Vol. 1, No. 1, Spring 2011, pages 6-7.
Chris addresses the belief that the "lack of diversity" mantra came into full throttle in the wake of the Fanconi Syndrome tsunami. Subsequently, AKC was petitioned to open the Stud book for new founders. She wraps up with the statement,
"A lot of good work has been done in many breeding programs, and we would not be helping the breed if we were to incorporate new imports with major flaws or of atypical type, for the sake fo the amorphous concept: 'diversity.' "
This article can be read online at -
<<<<>>>>>
Voodoo, apparently the Canine Genome Project has established the Basenji as the oldest domesticated breed and also that many of the others so claimed have actually been reconstructed.
When the 'originals' were imported to the UK they were brought in from areas where no other breeds of dogs were found - remember that so much of the area has been opened up since that time and many other dogs of all sorts have been introduced. However that's not to say that there are not still pockets where pure bred dogs do not exist. I'm sure that Dr Jo will bear me out there.
There are lines in the UK that go back to the original imports where apart from Fula of the Congo very few imports have been introduced. Therefore their genetic makeup is limited. However as has been already said their health has not deteriorated. I personally have always been able to maintain when I sold puppies that they would seldom need medical veterinary intervention between puppyhood and old age.
Unfortunately there has been such a preponderance of using studs merely because they do well in the show ring that the breed has changed here. I stick my neck out for the block in saying that poor breeding knowledge is resulting in the Basenji decline in the UK -nothing to do with a limited gene pool.
I can't speak for other countries. I think countries where breeding is only approved after prospective breeders have explained their reasons for breeding are producing 'better' examples of the breed.
Jo, I have just become a subscriber to Modern Basenji and so have only read Mary Lou Kenworthy's article and I do agree with her opinion on the establishment of separate breeding lines and am also in agreement with her on line breeding (and even in breeding)to establish these separate lines.
I am still trying to read Chris Maxca's article but don't seem to be able to open the link.
I'm still trying. Is the BCOA bulletin available on line? -
Voodoo, apparently the Canine Genome Project has established the Basenji as the oldest domesticated breed and also that many of the others so claimed have actually been reconstructed.
I'm still trying. Is the BCOA bulletin available on line?
From what I know, the Canine Genome Project only investigated 85 different breeds, so that doesn't seem like a really reliable way to find the absolute oldest breed. And 14 breeds came out to be the oldest, being the
Afghan hound, the Akita Inu, the Alaskan Malamute, the Basenji, the Chow Chow, the Lhasa Apso, the Pekingese, the Saluki, the Samoyed, the Shar Pei, the Siberian Husky, the Shih Tzu and the Tibetan terrier.Is this the bulletin you are looking for?
http://www.terrierman.com/BasenjiConservationBCOATheBulletinfinal.pdf -
@JoT:
FROM THE EDITOR by Wanda Pooley, published in the BCOA Bulletin magazine, Vol. XLVI, No. 3, July/Aug/Sept 2009, page 3.
Wanda did an analysis of the number of Basenjis registered in the AKC stud book over the 10-year period 2000-2009. The numbers she presents illustrate a steady decline and a difference of 47.47% between years 2000-2009. This indicates a shrinking population of breeding stock.Yes and no. I believe that there are just as many Basenjis born every year, perhaps even more now than there was 10 years ago. The decline in AKC registrations may be due to the following reason:
1.) There has been a steady increase in puppy mills and BYBs using disreputable registries such as the Continental Kennel Club instead of the AKC.
2.) Responsible breeders are using AKC limited registration and spay/neuter contracts.
3.) Public education has led to an increase in the number of pet owners who are eager to spay/neuter instead of breed.
WHAT IS DIVERSITY REALLY? by Mary Lou Kenworthy, published in The Modern Basenji Worldwide, Vol. 1, No. 2, Summer 2011, page 3.
Mary Lou comments that,
"the main problem [she] noticed is that most people try to apply population genetics to individual breeding programs and cannot separate the two in their minds."
She is a proponent for breeders establishing separate breeding lines. She says,
"If breeders create and monitor their own lines, the breed, as a whole, will prosper. No breeder can maintain diversity by himself, and any attempt to do so will lead to disaster for the breeder and the breed. It takes a network of breeders working together with individual lines to maintain diversity."I agree.
IN DEFENSE OF BREEDING by Chris Maxka, published in The Modern Basenji Worldwide, Vol. 1, No. 1, Spring 2011, pages 6-7.
"A lot of good work has been done in many breeding programs, and we would not be helping the breed if we were to incorporate new imports with major flaws or of atypical type, for the sake fo the amorphous concept: 'diversity.' "I agree to a point. Every animal that is submitted to the BCOA for AKC approval must go through a process. It isn't perfect but it does give everyone the right to vote. Even if you do not agree with the majority decision, you still have the choice of whether to breed to them, their progeny, or to avoid them altogether. If a dog with numerous or serious faults somehow gets accepted, it is unlikely that people will flock to it for breeding. If they do breed to it, they will probably "bury" it deep in their pedigrees as fast as possible. By the time the animal is 4-5 generations back, it's conformational faults will have very little impact. (Assuming the breeder "has a clue", that is.)
-
From Dr Jo
When viewed globally, the Basenji metapopulation has a fragmented populace; those inside their native home in central Africa, here called the source population and those outside, here called the modern population. The source population is genetically diverse resulting in a low chance that any two negative genes will combine and individuals have a very high chance of being healthy. Conversely, the modern population is not genetically diverse and the chance of two negative recessive genes combining rises in direct relationship to the degree of homogeneity. The evidence that the source population appears to be "clean" is indicative that it is still diverse enough that negative genes are not yet combining.
Exactly. Thank you.
Okay, ding ding ding… precisely what I asked... and the article answered. 18 foundation dogs... doesn't that worry those of you who don't think we need a bigger gene pool?
Therefore, the Basenji modern population was derived from 18 original progenitors, with varying degrees of gene representation.
As a result of this very small pool of founders, some more heavily represented than others, the modern population of the Basenji suffered indiscriminate loss of genetic diversity. In response to the high degree of inbreeding and the lethal expression of some health related recessive traits, in 1990 the Basenji registry was opened to allow additional new founders (those whose genes contributed to future generations, leaving aside those which did not reproduce) imported from the source population in the Congo (Zaire). An additional eight dogs …This brought the founder number for the AKC registered modern population up to 26 contributors (see Table 2);From 18 to 26.. even with limited breeding, that helps. Or would have if all had been used a lot. The stats following that were daunting… one stud ending up with nearly all the contribution of Y.
Thus anything that limits the number of males in use drastically restricts the effective breeding population. Overuse of popular sires is a tremendous deleterious factor in genetic impoverishment.
And here we go to the bane of ALL breeds… popular studs. Truly, breeds would benefit if they limited the number of times a stud can be used. Instead we are freezing straws and using dogs dead many years. I always felt if a dog hasn't produced a son and grandson who can produce, thus replacing him, why would you keep using him?
You article is overwhelming. We have a basic 26, and need to TRIPLE that (50 to 100 foundation) to maintain health... yet each opening we bring in a handful?
-
I'd like to make some points in relation to items raised on this thread.
a) If we are satisfied that the the African dogs that have been added to the stud book are in fact African village dogs from the same isolated populations from whence our original Basenjis came from, then they are to me more true Basenjis than any else where in the world. They have bred, largely amongst themselves to survive African conditions and no doubt forage and hunt for their own food etc. Surely its up to us to educate our breeders and judges that perhaps our understanding of what a good Basenji is has shifted away from the African Basenji to now be the International Basenji?
b) Secondly someone made comment on the poor structure of the African dogs? Really - have they not looked at many of the dogs now gracing our show rings? Straight shoulders and over angulated rears seem to be the name of the game at the moment, throw in a few weak pasterns, undulating top-lines, unfit dogs and I really don't think the African dogs are any worse than our non African stock. A flashy side gait does not make a sound dog able to stand up to a life of finding your own food and no veterinary treatment, for a sore back after a lure coursing run. These African dogs are different maybe, but I sincerely doubt structurally worse.
With regard to adding in African stock I think it does some excellent things: - its starts discussion - we may not all agree but we start talking about aspects of this dog that feel are essential to it being a Basenji.
However I also find it interesting reading the Coppingers' 'Dogs a New Understanding', who are evolutionary biologists focussing on dogs and that they say that the 'Natural Breeds' are constantly shifting and changing in response to their environment, food sources, disease etc - and paraphrasing is that the type of dogs that were taken from African and called 'Basenji's' no longer exist, as their core population did not freeze in time, even if the Avongara and Lukuru pups are direct relatives to the dogs that were exported, they've been exposed to environmental pressures, periodic shifts genetic frequency which means that they are no longer exactly the same.
-
Dr Jo, I got to see Dexter this weekend. What a lovely boy he is. We who love this breed are living in exciting times for the next generations. IMO.
-
I have now read Chris Maxca's article 'In Defense of Breeding' and find I agree with much that she says particularly in regard to the knowledge required to breed. No doubt most here will have read the article but for those who haven't I quote - "Serious breeding requires a significant amount of knowledge of genetics, of the breed standard, and of the background of the proposed mating pair, their parents, their siblings, their parent's siblings, the grandparents and beyond. One should know the strength and weaknesses of the breed, have an idea what traits are dominant, what traits are recessive, and the heritability estimate of any particular trait." -
May I suggest that it is ignorance that produces a decline in any breed including our own? The introduction of other dogs bringing what they may to the breed won't of itself correct this ignorance.
Jaycee speaks about 'education of breeders and judges' but while I agree, I quote - 'there is none so blind as him who will not see'.
Robyn's posting - 'Even if you do not agree with the majority decision, you still have the choice of whether to breed to them, their progeny, or to avoid them altogether' - is certainly true Indeed in the UK when the acceptance of brindle into our standard was accepted on a very close vote only one or two breeders incorporated the colour and so they remain in a minority here.
-
My apologies for taking so long to return to this thread. My schedule and workload has kept me away from the Forum. I hope we can continue this discussion, which I think is very important.
Thank you for the gentle reminder that was sent privately.
To refresh my memory, I have just gone back and quickly skimmed through the discussion. Wow, so many good comments!
I am trying to attach a picture with my comments. Please bear with me …
