What does it mean to add genes?

[lvoss]

Debra, I am not talking traits, I am talking about total genetic material. After 5 generations from a single outcross event the result is not distinguishable at a GENETIC MATERIAL level from the original population. I am not talking phenotype here, I am speaking genotype. If you want to think that a 1/32 African has some sort of genetic diversity advantage over a full domestic, fine but that isn't what genetic studies support.

[DebraDownSouth]

And again, it depends on what that 1/32 offers. And for the upteenth time, we agree you can't do one dog in 5 generations and make a significant impact. And again, since gene studies still minimal, we don't know what that 1/32 is impacting beyond the physical traits… which is where this debate began because originally you discussed traits when I was talking dna.

In 5 generations, according to genetics studies, all significant contribution of an individual will be washed away genetically if there isn't selection to maintain traits.

Pat, I sat on it but had to come back. You keep talking about them not having things to contribute… but the truth is, neither do a lot of the dogs being bred. Just because you don't think they are special doesn't mean they won't make an impact. They must actually be USED (as lvoss points out)... but how do you know they won't be?

As for the evaluation process... what would you suggest? I guess you could go to a committee only, but we both know politics gets involved. At least with all members (btw, how many members ARE in BCOA), people who care enough to join get to vote. I guess you could have a committee decide if there is any merit to even put to vote, but isn't that what the evaluations are for?

Again, almost moot point as unless there are a bunch of dogs here already waiting to be voted on, it's not likely anyone is going to sweep into the Congo and pick up dogs.

LVoss... do you know if any breeding coefficient studies have been done on basenjis in general? I remember being shocked at the Maine Coon cat study showing that basically the entire registered breed went back to 4 or 5 cats. They opened up the breed to "foundation" cats (ie looks like a duck acts like a duck). I am not sure if European registries accepted those in or not. (PS if you are not a cat person and have to get one, go with a maine coon. )

[tanza]

@DebraDownSouth:

Pat, I sat on it but had to come back. You keep talking about them not having things to contribute… but the truth is, neither do a lot of the dogs being bred. Just because you don't think they are special doesn't mean they won't make an impact. They must actually be USED (as lvoss points out)... but how do you know they won't be?

We will have to agree to disagree here…. While I will agree that there are many being bred at present that should not be, at least they are Basenji Type. Why add more dogs with glaring structural faults and NO Basenji Type to the mix? So that is what I mean by nothing to offer

[lvoss]

Debra, I am talking DNA that is what GENETIC MATERIAL is. There are studies using full genome scans which are becoming more and more affordable every day and that research is showing that 1/32 of the fractional percent of DNA that is actually different between two dogs of completely different breeds is not genetically significant.

[lvoss]

The numbers I have seen done by people in the breed shows that we have lost roughly 50% of our founders. That includes just from the new imports in 87/88, which is only just over 20 years ago, and already we have lost 50% of them and some only trace back to one or two breedings or 1 or 2 offspring.

This brings us back round to Clay's point, what good is it to open the stud book to foundation stock if there is no longer plan for incorporating them into the gene pool. If BCOA wants a successful native stock program then it should also include educational opportunities to learn how to best make use of the native stock otherwise people will just dip in once and then breed away from it and get the "feel good" sensation of doing something good for the breed when in fact they have done nothing.

[lisastewart]

I have seen several of the imports from the past 5 years, and they are of such poor structural quality, I doubt they would ever be used enough to make any impact, must less a significant impact upon the breed. With the number of basenjis already in the US, and those having valid health tests, we should have the ability to breed true to form, and more importantly temperament, without importing mutts that no one will use in their breeding program other than a few looney tune breeders who do not know the first thing about form and structure.

[Quercus]

@lvoss:

The numbers I have seen done by people in the breed shows that we have lost roughly 50% of our founders. That includes just from the new imports in 87/88, which is only just over 20 years ago, and already we have lost 50% of them and some only trace back to one or two breedings or 1 or 2 offspring.

This brings us back round to Clay's point, what good is it to open the stud book to foundation stock if there is no longer plan for incorporating them into the gene pool. If BCOA wants a successful native stock program then it should also include educational opportunities to learn how to best make use of the native stock otherwise people will just dip in once and then breed away from it and get the "feel good" sensation of doing something good for the breed when in fact they have done nothing.

That sounds like a great idea Lisa! Maybe you should write an article, or offer to do a presentation at a National? Or even a webinar, if we can't all get together at the same time? I am sure that at the very least, those of us that breed rarely, or are newer to the idea of breeding would love to hear about the possiblity of an organized breeding "plan" (for lack of a better word) for the best way to add diversity with native stock.

In the zoo world, breeding plans are done for each and every endangered or threatened species in captivity to maximize diversity. I wonder if there would be some way to implement suggestions for Basenji breeders based on a small population breeding model? Or maybe that has already been done in some rare breed clubs?

[Quercus]

@lisastewart:

I have seen several of the imports from the past 5 years, and they are of such poor structural quality, I doubt they would ever be used enough to make any impact, must less a significant impact upon the breed. With the number of basenjis already in the US, and those having valid health tests, we should have the ability to breed true to form, and more importantly temperament, without importing mutts that no one will use in their breeding program other than a few looney tune breeders who do not know the first thing about form and structure.

My concern with this idea is that although we are doing fairly well at testing, and very well at homogenizing the look of a Basenji; eventually we will reach the point where the bloodines are so interwined, that we will begin to suffer from problems related to inbreeding that we can't test for…cleft palates, diseases of the immune system, lack of fecundity, etc.

[lisastewart]

I would think the African bloodlines Are as inbred as you can get. We are importing what equate to African BYB oops litters. There is a reason they look like the fl rescue dogs. Better to import well bred dogs from other countries with established bloodlines is generic inbreeding health issues is your worry

[Voodoo]

The 1/32 is a bit simplistic. Some genes have a bigger impact then others. And with a good breeding program, some other mixes with fresh imports would have paired to the other mixes, so percentages will allways be higher.

I'm working for allmost 15 years now with Fiji Iguana's. 15 bloodlines in Europe, of wich 12 are used for breeding them (3 in zoo's that won't co-operate). DNA test are done with allmost every pairing, carefull breeding program… But we just can't keep them healthy. Problems are becomming more and more common. Bad sight, dwarfism, pigment changes... Without new bloodlines, it is impossible to keep a species healthy for multiple generations. In the best case, you end up with rather healthy animals that differ greatly from the original animals.
Same will happen to the Basenji. The Basenji's we have here, are no longer the same dogs that started it. If they would now present most people one of the Basenji's that started the breed, they would say it is not a real Basenji, that it is a Basenji type of dog or even a mutt.
So seems rather foulish to expect to find show quality dogs in African villages now that are exactly the same as the ones we have here and can be used in breeding programs without having to worry their offspring wouldn't be able to win some prices at shows. Better to take a step back at first, and then to be able to take 2 steps forward if you ask me.

[lvoss]

I really doubt the COI on Native Stock is very high. I would be interested to hear from someone like Dr Jo, about what she has observed about breeding in the native villages but we cannot apply terms like BYB to native stock, they are not kept, used, nor bred anything like what we do.

I also encourage people to go through lots of old magazines and see how much diversity we have lost. If you compare Native Stock strictly to what is seen today, I think most people would be sorely disappointed. If you compare Native Stock to the natural variations observed in past decades, I think you will begin to see that some fall within the spectrum of expected characteristics and others clearly fall outside. The problem is that with the narrowing of the gene pool many are becoming less accepting of variation which will only serve to further reduce the genepool.

I think that before we can adequately address how to manage the inclusion of Native Stock, we need more education about developing breeding programs in general, and why it is good to have different people using different approaches. Once we have a good grip on what a breeding program is, then we can move into how does Native Stock and preservation of founders fit in.

[Patty]

<'If they would now present most people one of the Basenji's that started the breed, they would say it is not a real Basenji, that it is a Basenji type of dog or even a mutt.'>

I suppose we are lucky here in that there are fewer dogs but I'm sure that this could also be said in the US - there are still Basenjis in the UK that resemble some original imports and no-one but no-one says they are not real Basenjis or mutts. Unfortunately most breeders here now have lost sight of breeding for the breed's sake ring and hence the breed and its standard does and has changed.

Unfortunately, unlike the early 1900s, there are very few areas now where no other breed has been introduced.

I think this is a never ending but rather important thread - there is such a variety of opinion and I don't think we'll persuade others with opposite views. Nevertheless I find it very interesting to hear opinions from every one.

[sharronhurlbut]

I agree Patty. I am learning so much reading this thread. Where would non registered african dogs fall into all of this? Think of them as village dogs with nothing to add to the gene pool or watch to see what they produce and go from there?

[Quercus]

@lvoss:

I really doubt the COI on Native Stock is very high. I would be interested to hear from someone like Dr Jo, about what she has observed about breeding in the native villages but we cannot apply terms like BYB to native stock, they are not kept, used, nor bred anything like what we do.

I also encourage people to go through lots of old magazines and see how much diversity we have lost. If you compare Native Stock strictly to what is seen today, I think most people would be sorely disappointed. If you compare Native Stock to the natural variations observed in past decades, I think you will begin to see that some fall within the spectrum of expected characteristics and others clearly fall outside. The problem is that with the narrowing of the gene pool many are becoming less accepting of variation which will only serve to further reduce the genepool.

I think that before we can adequately address how to manage the inclusion of Native Stock, we need more education about developing breeding programs in general, and why it is good to have different people using different approaches. Once we have a good grip on what a breeding program is, then we can move into how does Native Stock and preservation of founders fit in.

I couldn't agree more. I would imagine that most breeders who have been doing this for twenty or more years might not be interested in a general 'breeding program education'; but maybe (hopefully) people who are newer, or reluctant to jump in might be. I think this is a really interesting idea Lisa, and one that should be seriously considered for the future.

[DebraDownSouth]

@lisastewart:

I would think the African bloodlines Are as inbred as you can get. We are importing what equate to African BYB oops litters. There is a reason they look like the fl rescue dogs. Better to import well bred dogs from other countries with established bloodlines is generic inbreeding health issues is your worry

Sorry but the bloodlines in europe and other countries fall back to most of the same dogs. Nor do I think there is any way the african bloodlines are inbred. Pretty much shaking my head over that one.

@Voodoo:

The 1/32 is a bit simplistic. Some genes have a bigger impact then others. And with a good breeding program, some other mixes with fresh imports would have paired to the other mixes, so percentages will allways be higher.

…
Same will happen to the Basenji. The Basenji's we have here, are no longer the same dogs that started it....
expect to find show quality dogs in African villages now that are exactly the same as the ones we have here and can be used in breeding programs without having to worry their offspring wouldn't be able to win some prices at shows. Better to take a step back at first, and then to be able to take 2 steps forward if you ask me.

Thank you. Exactly.

I remember looking at the polar bear zoo population. They have a program that actually keeps track of all the bears, who are related, and work to keep the zoo breeding program as diverse as possible.

LOL not that anyone cares, but about 10 yrs ago someone said "Debra can find anything…I bet she can find out how many polar bears are in zoos in Brazil." That's how I came to contact and learn about the above.

[DebraDownSouth]

@Quercus:

I couldn't agree more. I would imagine that most breeders who have been doing this for twenty or more years might not be interested in a general 'breeding program education'; but maybe (hopefully) people who are newer, or reluctant to jump in might be. I think this is a really interesting idea Lisa, and one that should be seriously considered for the future.

And yet, wouldn't it be marvelous if the older folks took on a "guardian of the breed" view and dug in, dedicated a part of their breeding program precisely to saying–- okay not going to be winning for a generation or 2 or 3, but I'm helping the breed long term. Or if BCOA helped support more African percentage classes (ie 1/4, 1/2 and pure). I am not sure if AKC would allow such classes as part of their shows, or how it would work.

[Nemo]

@lvoss:

I also encourage people to go through lots of old magazines and see how much diversity we have lost. If you compare Native Stock strictly to what is seen today, I think most people would be sorely disappointed. If you compare Native Stock to the natural variations observed in past decades, I think you will begin to see that some fall within the spectrum of expected characteristics and others clearly fall outside. The problem is that with the narrowing of the gene pool many are becoming less accepting of variation which will only serve to further reduce the genepool.

Maybe this is what the fancy needs education on, or at least a reminder of how much variation there used to be, or perhaps should be? Maybe now since more information about the breed history is being added to the BCOA website, new people will have access to the information, but I'm not sure the appreciation would be there. There would probably be a lot of value of an organized breeder mentoring program, particularly from this perspective.

[Nemo]

@DebraDownSouth:

And yet, wouldn't it be marvelous if the older folks took on a "guardian of the breed" view and dug in, dedicated a part of their breeding program precisely to saying–- okay not going to be winning for a generation or 2 or 3, but I'm helping the breed long term. Or if BCOA helped support more African percentage classes (ie 1/4, 1/2 and pure). I am not sure if AKC would allow such classes as part of their shows, or how it would work.

What my mind keeps coming back to is that there would need to be a vision of what they are trying to accomplish in the end (darn corporate america brainwashing :rolleyes:). If diversity is basically providing more choices, what does success look like? How many more choices is meaningful? How you know the breed is sufficiently more diverse than it was before? I like Quercus's suggestion around taking inspiration from the zoo world, I bet a lot information could be mined from there as well as other dog breeds.

[YodelDogs]

@Quercus:

I couldn't agree more. I would imagine that most breeders who have been doing this for twenty or more years might not be interested in a general 'breeding program education'; but maybe (hopefully) people who are newer, or reluctant to jump in might be. I think this is a really interesting idea Lisa, and one that should be seriously considered for the future.

raises hand I have only been breeding 19 years <vbg>but I would love to go to a seminar on this topic. True, I have strong opinions on some topics but I am open minded about new ideas that are presented in a logical manner. I would find this topic very interesting.</vbg>

[YodelDogs]

@Nemo:

Related to Dr Jo's comment on the other thread that prompted this one, I also keep getting the perception that the health of the breed is doomed and the only way we can save it is through importing native stock. I'm not sure where it comes from, maybe because I haven't been around this for very long at all.

I have grown weary with people using "health" as a reason to import new dogs. Thanks to the diligence of breeders from early on until present, the Basenji is one of the healthiest pure breeds there is. I do feel that importation can be important to the breed as a whole but not for the purpose of "improving" health.

People seem to forget that imports do not come with researchable pedigrees and therefore we have absolutely no idea of what health issues they could potentially carry. We got lucky with the Avongaras as they turned out to be quite healthy overall but it could easily have gone in the opposite direction.

For clarity, I am not saying imports are unhealthy, just that inherited health problems are an unknown factor for several generations, long enough for recessives to appear.