Can anyone recomend great stud dog with excellent everything?

[lvoss]

When I think of bloodlines, I don't think of individual dogs but rather the breeder's line. It looks like you have an assortment of dogs behind yours rather than particular line or specific blending of lines. Is your goal to use an assortative breeding strategy, matching like type? Or are you hoping to develop a true line?

My foundation is mostly Kenset with Serengeti and older Arubmec (going to mostly Pero) lines. I took that foundation and outcrossed to Tamsala and Avongara. The last two litters that I have bred have been crossed back to the lines of my foundation. When I look at outside sires, I look for ones that will have these lines or their foundation lines behind them. It is not always easy to find and there are many old lines that are dying out as newer people to the breed seek the well known or big winning dogs. I don't breed so much that I will ever really have a true line of my own but I do hope that my breeding program helps to provide others working with similar lines so options for their breeding programs just as theirs provide me with options.

[dmey]

Im interested in learning more about all this. I have to admit I don't understand very well what you mean. For example, when you say your foundations is mostly Kenset with Serengeti and older arubmec .. What dogs were these?.. If I can look them up then I can figure out what you mean. There are so many dogs in any pedigree, what defines a "line"?

[tanza]

Not sure why posted in "random" order, easier to just give the dog's sire and dam….

And as lvoss said, which is the same as I have said, look at lines, not dogs.

[Quercus]

If your girl is Amahr Nahr's Just Call Me Madam, then I would say your lines are primarily Astarte and Taji, with some Jerlin

[Quercus]

@dmey:

Im interested in learning more about all this. I have to admit I don't understand very well what you mean. For example, when you say your foundations is mostly Kenset with Serengeti and older arubmec .. What dogs were these?.. If I can look them up then I can figure out what you mean. There are so many dogs in any pedigree, what defines a "line"?

The line is the dogs in a backward progression, particularly if their are multiple dogs from the same breeder. Eventually all of our lines go back to the same dogs, pretty much. But it is the dogs that are close up in a pedigree that tell you more than the dogs that are way back. You usually can't really know anything too specific about a dog by talking about the lines, but you can get a general idea of how old the lines are. Someone who has a lot of knowledge about a breed can have some insight into the quality of the dogs based on lines.

[dmey]

Ok thanks, and I imagine that there will be certain chacracterictics that can be described as pertaining to certain lines.. For example, I was looking at the brushy run site and the avongara dogs and noticed that most of them don't have very tight curl on their tails. as I was looking at Kinetic basenjis I noticed that sophie also ahas a similar tail and when I saw her pedigree she has avongara. So , I mean I guess this is not very well researched or anything but for example that could be a line trait, right the curl on the tail of the avongara line?

[tanza]

@dmey:

Ok thanks, and I imagine that there will be certain chacracterictics that can be described as pertaining to certain lines.. For example, I was looking at the brushy run site and the avongara dogs and noticed that most of them don't have very tight curl on their tails. as I was looking at Kinetic basenjis I noticed that sophie also ahas a similar tail and when I saw her pedigree she has avongara. So , I mean I guess this is not very well researched or anything but for example that could be a line trait, right the curl on the tail of the avongara line?

The Avongara line does have a loose tail curl. Some is due to the fact that the tail set lower. Easy enough to breed out (the set is important, not the curl) Sophie has a lovely second thigh and while a bit long in the back, has a nice level topline.

If you find pictures of many of the Jerlin dogs, you will find what I call a helicoptor tail… it is to the low side, has a good curl, but kind of stands up on the back instead of laying down.

[lvoss]

I disagree about not being able to tell too much about individuals based on the line behind them. If a dog comes from a true line, one where the breeder has worked over many generations to develop their line to the point where they have consistent type then you can come to expect certain things about individuals of that line. Just as Pat said, she looks to certain lines because she has come to expect certain traits from them. If you talk to breeders who have been around for a few decades they will tell you that you used to be able to see a dog from across the ring and know the breeder without ever seeing catalog because of the distinct look of the line. I see more and more that there are not many true lines anymore. Many breeders are now using assortative matings which produce a much more diverse spread of traits in litters.

[Nemo]

@tanza:

If you find pictures of many of the Jerlin dogs, you will find what I call a helicoptor tail… it is to the low side, has a good curl, but kind of stands up on the back instead of laying down.

Zoni inherited that trait. It can lay on the side more when tightly curled (it doesn't have anywhere else to go) but otherwise it's like a piggy tail. She's got two main lines behind her, Serengeti and Jerlin (Patton).

[DebraDownSouth]

@lvoss:

I disagree about not being able to tell too much about individuals based on the line behind them. …I see more and more that there are not many true lines anymore. Many breeders are now using assortative matings which produce a much more diverse spread of traits in litters.

There are Rottie lines you can spot the moment the dog walks in the ring. Lots of line breeding, some pretty close ones, but developing a very distinct type, look and movement.

But the last 10 yrs, less and less of that with everyone seeming to breed for excessively short backs (I say excessive because of the research showing the severe problems it is causing the breed!), massive bone and larger and larger heads. Soon the breed will truly look more like a mastiff.

I heard a breeder once say all the outcrossing (assortive matings, nice phrase, thanks) was healthier. But the lecturer laughed and said even with a breed as "popular" numbers wise as Rottweilers, our actual gene pool is very small. And truly, you look 10 generations back and it's nearly all the same dogs. I fail to see an issue with line breeding and even tight line breeding when your dogs are healthy.

[dmey]

@tanza:

The Avongara line does have a loose tail curl. Some is due to the fact that the tail set lower. Easy enough to breed out (the set is important, not the curl) Sophie has a lovely second thigh and while a bit long in the back, has a nice level topline.

If you find pictures of many of the Jerlin dogs, you will find what I call a helicoptor tail… it is to the low side, has a good curl, but kind of stands up on the back instead of laying down.

What is a second thigh? ….

[Quercus]

@lvoss:

I disagree about not being able to tell too much about individuals based on the line behind them. If a dog comes from a true line, one where the breeder has worked over many generations to develop their line to the point where they have consistent type then you can come to expect certain things about individuals of that line. Just as Pat said, she looks to certain lines because she has come to expect certain traits from them. If you talk to breeders who have been around for a few decades they will tell you that you used to be able to see a dog from across the ring and know the breeder without ever seeing catalog because of the distinct look of the line. I see more and more that there are not many true lines anymore. Many breeders are now using assortative matings which produce a much more diverse spread of traits in litters.

Agreed Lisa about the current day vs olden day description of lines. I guess I mean if a pedigree has a large percentage of assortative matings, following the 'lines' won't tell you much. But definitely, a pedigree that is following line-breeding, there should be a specific look or type. Absolutely.

[tanza]

@dmey:

What is a second thigh? ….

Second Thigh is the part of the hind leg from the bottom of the shelf (as a good visual point) and the hock

Here is a link to one of my bitches that I bred with a nice long second thigh

http://www.tanzabasenjis.net/files/crystal_hayward.jpg

[DebraDownSouth]

Lovely bitch, Pat.

[dmey]

Beautiful ,…...Ok, thanks for all the info... Trying to learn as much as I can.... I am trying to see wherer my Ayo fits in with all these descriptions....

[tanza]

@DebraDownSouth:

Lovely bitch, Pat.

Thanks… I think she is a lovely bitch but then since I bred her I have a vested intersted... that said.... she did not have the best of temperaments so I made the decision that this is not the road I wanted to travel.... so have changed my breeding program... be it as it may... very few litters... but lots of thought and time put into any change or breeding decision.

[Katheris]

The second, or lower thigh, correpsonds to the human shin. It streches from the stifle(knee) to the hock; the bones are the tibia and fibula. The upper thigh begins at the shelf and ends at the stifle. The bone in the upper thigh is the fibula; it corresponds to the thigh(no upper or lower or second or any other confusing terms in the human.

Katy

[tanza]

@Katheris:

The second, or lower thigh, correpsonds to the human shin. It streches from the stifle(knee) to the hock; the bones are the tibia and fibula. The upper thigh begins at the shelf and ends at the stifle. The bone in the upper thigh is the fibula; it corresponds to the thigh(no upper or lower or second or any other confusing terms in the human.

Katy

LOL, if I didn't know what to look at on a dog, I would really be confused now….

I am sure it will make sense to some people.

[Katheris]

Now, now Pat, I didn't intend to confuse you more than you already are confused about anatomy A nice person alerted me to the error, and I'll correct it. The bone in the upper thigh is the femur. Upper thigh with FEMUR from shelf to stifle. Lower thigh with fibula and tibia from stifle to hock. That should help you with basic anatomy!

Katy

[sinbaje]

Here is a graphic of where bones are in dogs plus some terminology which seems unique to basenjis (ie shelf, point of shelf).

I would hate for anyone to leave this conversation more confused then when they entered it and I like/learn better ith visuals.

Hope it helps someone.