Looks like you said that difference in your second post, so we are on the same page.
Separation Anxiety and Re-Crate Training
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Today we're trying an ex-pen around her crate, Renaultf1, to see how that goes. She does love marrow bones, but, believe it or not, has historically still ignored those when we're away. She goes straight into panic mode and sees nothings else! She has to be alone today for 5 hours, which is longer than she's been alone the other days. I'm worried she'll bust out of the pen, but I can't bear to think of her going nuts in her crate for 5 hours. I could probably take her too school but it seems like it would be so distracting and I feel like it may look unprofessional.
We have thought about getting a second basenji. I'm concerned her SA anxiety will continue and then we'll just have two dogs to contend with! So, DebraDownSouth thanks for the suggestion about borrowing a foster dog. That's a good idea and we may try it down the road a little.
I have decided to visit a vet to see if we can get her on meds. I'll keep you posted.
LovingLola…Here's hoping it went a little better for her today. I do believe your girl wouldn't touch the bones when she is so upset as that is a classic example of separation anxiety. I know when Ruby was crated, she wouldn't touch any treats or marrow bones. Once she was switched to the expen though, she would actually enjoy the bones or kongs left for her. Some days her bedding would be dragged out of her crate into the open space of the expen and some days I could see that she actually slept in her crate. So I hope you have at least some success with it.
Please report back and let us know how it went.
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My girl, Callie, can only be crated with my Lola in the crate with her. She doesn't have separation anxiety; she's just being a stubborn b****. So having two definitely helps in my case, but if I ever want to go somewhere with just Lola, that doesn't help.
I highly recommend the Crate Games videos on youtube. There are a ton of training videos free on youtube that give you instruction on how to play games with Lola & her crate & very high value treats (special ones she doesn't get at any other time, like cooked chicken or something). It may take a looooong time and a ton of patience, but I would definitely check those out. -
Andrew I have never put 2 dogs in a crate (other than a mom with pup). In case of a fight, it is a real dangerous situation. In fact, I can't think of anyone I know who crates 2 together. I am sure there are… curious to here who else here puts 2 dogs of any breed in a crate.
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when suki had to stay with a pet-sitter for a weekend and she was only 13-14 weeks, the sitter put her with in a crate with an older dog so she would quit crying. it worked out well, so she did it the whole weekend, but suki was a puppy, then. i guess if it's normal for them, then there shouldn't be any problems. i kind of worried when the sitter told me, though, but i guess it worked out well for them.
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Report: Lola did get out of her ex-pen set up. The pen itself had not been opened, so my theory is that she climbed on top of her crate and jumped over. She peed on the carpet in three places (Thankfully, no poop!), shredded all the toilet paper and cardboard in the apartment, and chewed on the window blinds in every room. The worst part is that she cut herself, maybe on her gums from chewing, and got little smudges of blood everywhere.
This is clearly not sustainable and just painful to watch. She's just miserable. So I'm taking her to the vet to see if putting her on meds is a possibility. I've thought of seeking the help of a dog behaviorist (there's a highly recommended women nearby in San Francisco), but they're sooooo expensive. The second B is a possibility, but it's a risky move - could help or could not help.
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I should also mention that she's long had a problem with chewing on her tail, which I suspect is an outlet for her anxiety.
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I just read this thread and wanted to say we had a bitch that had severe seperation anxiety. I read this book and it helped us. Her explanation of what seperation anxiety fit our girl to a tee.
We followed her example of the case study in the book and it worked. We never could break her of peeing in her crate, but we lost her last August at 15 years and she was fine in her crate til the very end.
Here is the link for the book, hope it helps;
http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Listener-Communicate-Willing-Cooperation/dp/0060089466/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1294503882&sr=1-1
Therese -
I forgot to mention, the crate games is a great tool. But all crate training with our girl was a failure, even adding a second basenji failed. In fact I think she made him a bit crazy.
I think crate training is very different from seperation anxiety. That's why we got so much out of this book. I feel your frustration and we felt the same, we got tons of advice from wonderful sources nothing ever seemed to help.
I hope you don't have to medicate her, but we also consulted a behaviorist at $300 an hour who was very nice. I still have to say I got more out of the book and I think I paid $25 for it back then in hard back at a book store.
Therese -
Thanks, Therese. I just found a local training/boarding place that will do private consults for $150…that's a little more reasonable. As far as the book is concerned, could you give me a little idea about how this book was so helpful? I'll buy it and read it myself, but I'm curious what you think was special about her advice.
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Debradownsouth - I am one who puts two and even three dogs in one crate. My dogs aren't crated at home but when I go to shows they travel together in one crate and if I can get away with it (against rules) they stay together at the shows because they are happier like that. Obviously I would never put two dogs who don't get on in one crate.
Therese - I have great faith in Jan Fennell's methods and find her books illuminating.
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The best description is that the dog that suffers from seperation anxiety isn't anxious about being left alone because it feels abandoned but is instead worried about his/her owners needing them.
The author explains a dog with seperation anxiety may in fact be like a parent of a three year old child that has just locked mom up in a pen and walked out into traffic and locked the front door behind them. As a parent you would chew through your own leg and then through the front door to save your child and if you couldn't get beyond the door you would lose it, trashing the house in the process.
The exercises she uses are about teaching the dog you have all under control and they don't need to worry about you. It was interesting for us because it was less about the actual crate and more about us leaving. The entire book gives great advice on how to make your dogs feel you have things under control and they don't need to be on high alert on your behalf. Her overall approach will help give your dog a better life all the way around, it put our girl at peace.
I'm not doing the author justice but it was a totally different thought process, we had previously been so focused on convincing her she was okay when all along it seemed she was more worried that we were okay. The change in our approach worked great.
It's a great read either way. Hope you get the chance to enjoy it.
Therese -
@Therese:
The best description is that the dog that suffers from seperation anxiety isn't anxious about being left alone because it feels abandoned but is instead worried about his/her owners needing them.
The author explains a dog with seperation anxiety may in fact be like a parent of a three year old child that has just locked mom up in a pen and walked out into traffic and locked the front door behind them. As a parent you would chew through your own leg and then through the front door to save your child and if you couldn't get beyond the door you would lose it, trashing the house in the process.
The exercises she uses are about teaching the dog you have all under control and they don't need to worry about you. It was interesting for us because it was less about the actual crate and more about us leaving. The entire book gives great advice on how to make your dogs feel you have things under control and they don't need to be on high alert on your behalf. Her overall approach will help give your dog a better life all the way around, it put our girl at peace.
I'm not doing the author justice but it was a totally different thought process, we had previously been so focused on convincing her she was okay when all along it seemed she was more worried that we were okay. The change in our approach worked great.
It's a great read either way. Hope you get the chance to enjoy it.
ThereseHi Therese! How great to see you here! I love this explanation, and I am going to get my hands on the book to learn more. The analogy makes a lot of sense as to why a dog gets in such a panic.
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@Therese:
…The best description is that the dog that suffers from seperation anxiety isn't anxious about being left alone because it feels abandoned but is instead worried about his/her owners needing them...
Therese, that makes perfect sense to a basenji owner! Perhaps if we stop looking out of our spectacles, but look through their eye-liner eyes… we can understand their anxiety? You are saying that they are not anxious about being in a confined area, but are anxious because they are worried about me/you… that makes a lot of sense to me!
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Therese, that makes perfect sense to a basenji owner! Perhaps if we stop looking out of our spectacles, but look through their eye-liner eyes… we can understand their anxiety? You are saying that they are not anxious about being in a confined area, but are anxious because they are worried about me/you… that makes a lot of sense to me!
Makes sense but what's the solution…
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Therese - that book sounds like an excellent read. The description you gave makes complete sense. I'm going to order the book today.
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To the OP…I'm sorry she had such a rough day. One thing that I failed to mention is that I put a top on the expen. It sounds like that probably wouldn't matter in your case. I think the book Therese sounds like it could help immensely. Please keep us updated.
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@Therese:
The best description is that the dog that suffers from seperation anxiety isn't anxious about being left alone because it feels abandoned but is instead worried about his/her owners needing them.
I was refraining from responding about the book (YES, stop laughing, I do actually often refrain!)
But unless you have some psychic ability, such a spin is really a bit silly. The author ascribes things and imaginings that make no sense. MOST dogs with separation anxiety are fine if ANY human is there, or a familiar one. So this theory, much as we may want to spin it's all about US, makes no logical sense.
But the bottom line is, it's a waste of energy making up such thinking because it has nothing to do with the reality of the situation. It would be as logical for her to spend time saying that when we are gone they worry an alien will suck them out of the home. Actually, that would fit BETTER because then ANY human would prevent it and they wouldn't have to be anxious, which is usually the case. See my point? One wiser trainer suggested that separation anxiety is a genetic predisposition to fear of being without the pack leader. But the wise trainer said while it might serve a survival need to stay with the pack, he couldn't prove it and it didn't make any difference. The problem was overcoming it.
A pretty snarky but imho accurate evaulation of Jan Fennell:
http://www.kateconnick.com/library/fennelllistener.htmlI just feel she is long on anecdotal evaluations, short on real insights and spends a lot of time with silliness (which I consider the almost psychic conclusion that your dog worries for your safety) instead of useful training help.
As with people, the cause of a phobia is rarely all that important. The important part is retraining the response. Often, as with people, it takes a very long time, working in small increments of time and expanding it to get a dog used to being alone. Sometimes it takes medications. Sometimes it requires other options (such as massively expensive steel crates the dog cannot hurt itself on or get out of, medications, day care, etc). But whether the dog has anxiety about being alone, about not having one of it's humans/pack leaders, or fear of aliens… the issue is the behaviors and responses.
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Debra,
I don't disagree with your assessment of Jan Fennell overall, I still believe in reading, attending, watching all the trainers I can and using what I get from each one. Sometimes it is a great deal and sometimes it is little tid bits.However I have to disagree about treatment of anxiety in people and also treatment of anxiety in dogs. I sat on a psychotropic drug review group for 9 years and one case comes to mind. The man had severe dementia and sleep disturbance, his original MD felt sleep meds and antidepressants were the answer. His first psych consult felt antianxiety meds would benefit this man. Eventually they used behavior modification to get him to sleep at night and not during the day combined with the meds. Through all this he became more anxious and after two years he was now having appetite issues. Having severe dementia he couldn't explain to his doctors what he was going through so they have to play hit and miss like we do with dogs.
The group I sit on reviewed his entire history and found he had owned a mortuary and was the person responsible for picking up the deceased. Anyone who works in the medical field will tell you oddly enough most deaths occur at night. He was used to getting up in the middle of the night and shaving and putting on a suit and tie to go do his work. To calm down when he returned home he would often have a bite to eat. This explained him getting up several times during the night and why he wanted to shower, shave, dress and even eat. It wasn't in fact he was confused about time of day. But what was most important was that by putting him on meds and changing his routine to make waking up throughout the night caused extreme anxiety because he was worried he wasn't doing his job.
We backed off his meds and eventually he took a low dose antidepressant that also helped with appetite and allowed him to get up during the night if he felt the need. We call that using environmental approaches. He passed away last year and the past few years of his life even the antidepressant was not needed. He kept odd hours from the rest of the patients but had a great relationship with the night staff.
I just think we should use all the info available to help our dogs and our people. I don't disagree with behavior modification at all, but I just don't think its all there is.
Hope you never have to feel you have to hold your tongue with me, I love learning new info all the time and that's what I like about what I read on this group.
Therese -
Okay, wow. I didn't globalize mental states, simply phobias. Understanding emotional disorders is of course important. Btw, I worked in counseling for many years before becoming a parent and staying home to raise her. Behavior therapy is great for many things, including phobias. It can SUPPORT other things. I hope no one else assumed my post meant I don't see the value in therapy or think behavior mod is the only answer for people or animals. I am shaking my head wondering if you imagined me saying to a mugging victim… oh we don't care why you are afraid to go out, just do these behavior mod programs. I was addressing one thing... that Jan makes up stuff that isn't even all that logical, and totally unnecessary for dogs. And that dogs AND people with phobias mostly just need behavior therapy to improve.
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Debra,
I did misread your post, I thought you were saying the reason is not important. My bad, I totally agree with the behavior modification approach just thought some insight to why in our case helped the method. I think we are probably agreeing more than I thought. Look forward to sharing more ideas with you.
Therese
