No surprise there as there has been a few craiglist posts from this person with Basenjis to place…ie: FOR SALE! I don't think she ever stopped breeding.
A word from Susan Patterson re: Avuvi's
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By the way, not that it has anything to do with Susan Patterson (well maybe indirectly) but RMH's puppies are on puppyfind.com
If my posts are to be blocked then it is unconscionable that posts about me should be allowed.
Yes, my pups are on Puppy find. So are lots of other good breeders. So are puppy millers and BYBs. Caveat emptor. Thanks for the advertising. There is a lot of info and some photos in my ads. You all know what questions to ask. It has been the only online service I have used so far but it isnt the ad service that defines the quality of the breeder.
Pat did mention temperament and other potential negative issues that might be slowing down the application besides conformation. I and I presume Susan did not like the implication that there could be something besides conformation intrinsic to the basenjis from Benin that was negative. Perhaps she did not intend for her words to carry this implication but thats how it was read. My Avuvis are my best dogs, and I got some damn good domestic ones from a show breeder, as well as part owner ship of the 3rd Grand Champion basenji who is a very sweet tempered dog as well. In fact if you want a sweet temperament and health, and dont want an African, she would be someone to check with.
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By the way, not that it has anything to do with Susan Patterson (well maybe indirectly) but RMH's puppies are on puppyfind.com
Susan has been breeding for 40 years and has no need for an ad service. Any exchanges between her and me has been to edify me. Her association with me came about bc she decided I would make a good Avuvi owner and she sold Apollo to me. I subsequently got Macho, my other Avuvi 2006 from the second of two Avuvi litters, so another long time breeder was also satisfied.
I certainly have no influence on Susan who is as decent a person and as responsible a person and breeder as you could want. Your implication that my association with her reflects poorly on her is laughable. Anyone who would criticize Susan as a breeder I would have to question their facts or reasoning. It is just unimaginable to me. Plus she is just a caring, empathetic person and has a brilliant mind.
She has been actively breeding for decades but has had to put dog activities on hold due to life circumstances. If she breeds again, you could do a lot worse than to look for a Calypso basenji, domestic or African.
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Thank you for posting this interesting comment from Susan Patterson but I still don't understand why it seems necessary for Avuvis to be accepted as Basenjis. Will the AKC not accept them as a distinct breed?
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Who is criticizing Susan, gezzz, stop putting words in my "mouth"? Susan has some lovely Basenjis and again, I think that Honey is a very nice example of a Basenji and certainly I would not have a problem with her being admitted to the stud books, if and when Susan decides to do so. And I never said that there was anything wrong with Honey, nor did I infer that there was… In mentioning temperament, all the imports that have been evaluated for acceptance, temperament was part of that. I have never inferred that there was anything wrong with Honey's temperament.
Since the other thread was closed and lots of people asked for pictures of your pups, I didn't really want to totally hi-jack the thread and only put as a reference for mentioning the pups. Since this thread is from Linda with an email from Susan, only made the reference because you have had connentions with her when you got you first Avuvi's. That and nothing else... certainly I just could have started a new thread, but didn't. My mistake if people think that I am trying to reflect badly on Susan, as that is not the case.
And yes, some responsible breeders do have ads on Puppyfind, never said that there were not responsible breeders there... I have had ads there in the past too...
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By the way, not that it has anything to do with Susan Patterson (well maybe indirectly) but RMH's puppies are on puppyfind.com
Wow. Even when the thread is not about Marie - we just can't stop ourselves from bringing her up in such a negative light. Novel thought - why don't we (collectively) just be honest for once and say once and for all what we really think/feel about Marie as a breeder, as a basenji owner and as a human being since it is apparent we think so poorly of her that we must all be reminded daily of her transgressions, lest we forget and think maybe 'she's not so bad'. We could start a separate thread, dump all our righteous, judgmental BS into it and never again have to bring her up in such backhanded (to this reader) ways - instead referring people to the thread to see why 'we are great and she is not.' It really makes a person wonder if we(collectively) somehow want to see Marie's pups end up in bad homes and needed rescue, just to prove our collective spiteful points. (Now THAT, dear people, IS me DRIPPING in sarcasm!).
Not sure what your point is…. All I said was that there is a reason, I never stated that I had any idea why, be it good, bad, indifferent... It was RMH that assumed that I was saying there was a "bad" reason they have not been submitted... not me. And I think Honey is very much Basenji Type.
I never said you specifically stated anything. However the implications were certainly there, in many of the postings not just yours, for people (sans Marie) to fill in the blanks and think badly or negatively about the reasons why they have not been submitted. I know how I read it and know from several private exchanges I was not the only one. Therefore I personally felt the need to find out vs just taking said implications as being based on any kind of fact.
And to email her and give her "your" impression of what was implied is improper at best.
I disagree. Whose impression should I give but my own?? How else does one start a conversation or query if not to give a bit of background based on my thoughts? Would you rather I send her a 'copy and paste' of all the posts and let her judge for herself? I would be more than happy to - folks just need to give me permission to do so and it is done!
Again, I point out, I said nothing about her bitch, her conformation, her health testing, etc… only that "obviously" there was a reason that she had not been submitted... it was others that put words in my "mouth"... making it look as if I thought there was a "bad" reason.
Again - I never gave her particulars of who said what only what this readers overall impression was. And while I agree you never "said" anything per se, IMO, writing an open ended statement such as "obviously there was a reason she was not submitted" leaves much for the reader to fill in - which is of course where implications et al come in.
In the end, I really have no interest in these particular imports and if submitted they would be judged as all the others have.
And THAT is the beauty of living in a world we do - interest is not forced on those who have none. I think that was KathyB's point - if they are not your cup o'tea - then you never have to use them but don't take away or make the decision for someone else who might have an interest.
Thanks for your reply Lisa. I will send along what you have written. Good stuff to know. I did not take her questions re: offspring to be "putting words" in anyone's mouths but I know we all read things how we see things.
And Andrea - I will send along your good wishes too. Thanks.
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Thank you for posting this interesting comment from Susan Patterson but I still don't understand why it seems necessary for Avuvis to be accepted as Basenjis. Will the AKC not accept them as a distinct breed?
Hi Patty,
If you are really interested in knowing the answer I would highly suggest ask the folks that are responsible for the Benin Avuvi's. So as not to post their private info to a public group -email me and I can send you contact info. Or if you are a BCOA member - look up: Susan Patterson, Anne Humphries and Brenda Greenberg Jones and drop them a line or give them a call. (I do not not include Marie cuz we know where she is and how to locate. I do not include Robert cuz I have no contact info for him but the others might) IMO, they are the only ones who can answer that question fully - the rest of us can only speculate and to be honest I would rather listen to fact than speculation.
As for Avuvi's being a distinct breed with the AKC - I am not sure what you mean unless you are refrring to the Avuvis of which Manu has written? If yes - I seem to recall Marie stating that Manu's dogs are not the same as the Benin but confusingly they share the same name so perhaps that is where the problems arise?
<shrug>I do not know but until such time that 1) they do not submit the dogs and the studbook is closed or 2) they submit but are denied - we can not say unequivaclly what they are or are not as there is no genetic test to prove or disprove otherwise.
Sure we can have our opionions but that is all it is - our opinion and only worth the monitor we type it on.
Again - go to the source(s) if you are truly interesrted.</shrug>
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Okay first, I also "read" the indication that there was some REASON Honey wasn't submitted with an inference, intended or not, that there was something wrong with her. I thought the implication was pretty darned strong…so am glad to have it cleared up.
As for Linda's post... why are you bringing it all up again? Pat said the pups were listed. She said nothing else.
But I will.. she is still listing under Basenji, she makes no note that they are NOT really basenjis and in fact lists herself as BCOA breeder when we all know this litter has nothing to do with BCOA but her listing it makes it seem so,and will have weight with the uneducated who go there for finding a dog. Further, she guarantees the health of the dogs that we all know she hasn't done the health testing on the parents.
And I find the colors a bit startling.
I wish her the best of luck, I wish those pups the best of homes, and I don't care to rehash the other thread. Life to me is pretty basic. You don't test before breeding, you aren't responsible and no dancing undoes that. You advertise dogs as one thing hoping to snare the unsuspecting, you aren't responsible. I judge the actions of people and anyone who pretends they don't judge others is a liar. We ALL make judgments, it is the basis for decision making.
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Oh, I'm so disappointed I missed an oppertunity to see Honey when she was out here. I have greatly admired pics of her. I'll second what Andrea said in wishing Susan all the best in her personal life and in getting her pups put through the process of AKC registration. I'm not really sure why the lack of pics from one pup would cause the process to slow/halt as most of the dogs submitted have 0 pups to their name.
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Folks,
Once again, please respect our forum guidelines. If you can not find a way to settle your differences of opinion in a civilized manner, our advice is to leave this topic alone.
Repeat offenders are going to be treated with a permanent forum ban.
But he/she started the fight by attacking me! Can't I defend myself?
This is a forum for the discussion of Basenjis, not a dueling society. If you feel attacked, please report it to the admin and then ignore the poster. Remember, however much you were provoked, if you attack a poster personally then you are just as guilty of breaking the rules.
If you feel that you need stop posting for a while because of a conflict with other members, please step back and email us directly before posting publicly about the issue.
We created this rule to make sure Basenji Forums has a friendly environment for discussion about Basenjis, as well as to shield new members from any arguments that could be brewing in the community. Best way to comply with this rule is to just let it go and move on.
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As for Linda's post… why are you bringing it all up again? Pat said the pups were listed. She said nothing else.
True. True. But why bring it up in the first place? When I asked myself that and came to an answer - I replied as I did. Having read what folks think about Marie ad nauseam - it makes it hard for me to believe there was any positive motivating factors in the post. So I got sarcastic. Felt good actually. :O)
But I will.. she is still listing under Basenji, she makes no note that they are NOT really basenjis and in fact lists herself as BCOA breeder when we all know this litter has nothing to do with BCOA….
Personally I think she has every right to call them whatever she wants to. As stated earlier - unless and until we have a DNA test that can 100% include or exclude these dogs as being basenji - we can only go by phenotype. And as there is no perfect basenji, having seen funny/furry coats, funny colors, sickle tails et al in domestic and/or BCOA accepted stock - she is not necessarily off base in calling them basenjis.
No, she does NOT list herself as a BCOA breeder.
What she has written is: "Home based occasional breeder. Member Basenji Club of America.Special interest in breeding Africans."
She is a BCOA member.
She goes on to say: "Current vaccinations, Veterinarian examination, Health certificate, Health guarantee, Pedigree
Additional information: AKA Spot. Vivi and her sister are hard to tell apart! Friendly to people already and holding their own or more with the boys. Unique pale red/white coloring. These Avuvi pups are 1-2 generations from Benin, Africa where dogs live with people who own them and they have jobs as hunters and watchdogs. In Africa they have to fend for themselves for some food and water. They tend to be very affectionate and loyal to their people - pack. They are not for everyone, but if you are right for them you will never have a better dog.
Email for more information. At 4 weeks they are playing with each other and humans and trying to play with the adults which is not well received!"
Further, she guarantees the health of the dogs that we all know she hasn't done the health testing on the parents.
Her idea of guarantee might not be your idea but that does not mean she is misrepresenting anything when she says it. To guarantee a product means to repair or replace or pay incidental costs. If she is willing/able to do this - she is not being misleading.
Sorry - I do not see anything wrong in what she is posting nor do I see her misrepresenting herself as we continue to imply she is.
(I hope this fits under Alex's guidelines. :O)
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Folks,
Once again, please respect our forum guidelines. If you can not find a way to settle your differences of opinion in a civilized manner, our advice is to leave this topic alone.
Repeat offenders are going to be treated with a permanent forum ban.
But he/she started the fight by attacking me! Can't I defend myself?
This is a forum for the discussion of Basenjis, not a dueling society. If you feel attacked, please report it to the admin and then ignore the poster. Remember, however much you were provoked, if you attack a poster personally then you are just as guilty of breaking the rules.
If you feel that you need stop posting for a while because of a conflict with other members, please step back and email us directly before posting publicly about the issue.
We created this rule to make sure Basenji Forums has a friendly environment for discussion about Basenjis, as well as to shield new members from any arguments that could be brewing in the community. Best way to comply with this rule is to just let it go and move on.
Where is it written that MY comments get deleted, yet ppl libeling me have free run of this forum? I dont think it is necessary to speculate about my ad - go look at it yourself and if you are a serious buyer, you can ask me anything and I will tell you everything, asked or not.
Marie
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Oh, I'm so disappointed I missed an oppertunity to see Honey when she was out here. I have greatly admired pics of her. I'll second what Andrea said in wishing Susan all the best in her personal life and in getting her pups put through the process of AKC registration. I'm not really sure why the lack of pics from one pup would cause the process to slow/halt as most of the dogs submitted have 0 pups to their name.
There are 4 pups from one litter and several pups from the second 2006 litter. That's 4 of the 5 intact 2004 imports that have litters.
Further, I have 3 pups from a litter of my Avuvis, but one is a 2006 pup, so only one of the Avuvi 2009 with pups to track down
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Not sure what your point is…. All I said was that there is a reason, I never stated that I had any idea why, be it good, bad, indifferent... It was RMH that assumed that I was saying there was a "bad" reason they have not been submitted... not me. And I think Honey is very much Basenji Type.
And to email her and give her "your" impression of what was implied is improper at best. Again, I point out, I said nothing about her bitch, her conformation, her health testing, etc... only that "obviously" there was a reason that she had not been submitted... it was others that put words in my "mouth"... making it look as if I thought there was a "bad" reason.
In the end, I really have no interest in these particular imports and if submitted they would be judged as all the others have. IMO until they are admitted to the Stud Books they should be referred to as something other than Basenjis.
United Kennel Club may beg to differ. They also register "Basenjis" and all the 2004 imports are so registered. It;s kind of a strange argument - I list my dogs under "Basenjis" so people who are interested in such dogs have a chance of finding them. Everyone who expresses interest knows what he or she is getting from the first moment we have contact.
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Okay first, I also "read" the indication that there was some REASON Honey wasn't submitted with an inference, intended or not, that there was something wrong with her. I thought the implication was pretty darned strong…so am glad to have it cleared up.
As for Linda's post... why are you bringing it all up again? Pat said the pups were listed. She said nothing else.
But I will.. she is still listing under Basenji, she makes no note that they are NOT really basenjis and in fact lists herself as BCOA breeder when we all know this litter has nothing to do with BCOA but her listing it makes it seem so,and will have weight with the uneducated who go there for finding a dog. Further, she guarantees the health of the dogs that we all know she hasn't done the health testing on the parents.
And I find the colors a bit startling.
I wish her the best of luck, I wish those pups the best of homes, and I don't care to rehash the other thread. Life to me is pretty basic. You don't test before breeding, you aren't responsible and no dancing undoes that. You advertise dogs as one thing hoping to snare the unsuspecting, you aren't responsible. I judge the actions of people and anyone who pretends they don't judge others is a liar. We ALL make judgments, it is the basis for decision making.
The large range of natural colors of the basenji were severely culled from the beginning. You can tell this by looking at the standard and seeing what is specifically pointed out as undesirable. Or you can read VTW. Those are traits that were seen in nature and not desired by the Victorian show breeding class. Brindle used to be one of them.
No one gets a dog that doesnt understand 100% what they are getting. i take back and I dont really want to have to take back.
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Nay Marie - yours are not the only posts to be deleted. My dripping in sarcasm post seems to have disappeared into thin air - luckily I have a copy of it if anyone cares to know what we are replying too. Nothing more absurd (or confusing) then to read replies to things that are no longer there.
Silly really we have to have a moderator step in to take care of things as though we are children vs the adults I thought we all were. And as you say - only certain posts from certain folks are targeted. Double tsk.
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With out the dripping sarcasm - should make this a legal post:
Not sure what your point is…. All I said was that there is a reason, I never stated that I had any idea why, be it good, bad, indifferent... It was RMH that assumed that I was saying there was a "bad" reason they have not been submitted... not me. And I think Honey is very much Basenji Type.
I never said you specifically stated anything. However the implications were certainly there, in many of the postings not just yours, for people (sans Marie) to fill in the blanks and think badly or negatively about the reasons why they have not been submitted. I know how I read it and know from several private exchanges I was not the only one. Therefore I personally felt the need to find out vs just taking said implications as being based on any kind of fact.
And to email her and give her "your" impression of what was implied is improper at best.
I disagree. Whose impression should I give but my own?? How else does one start a conversation or query if not to give a bit of background based on my thoughts? Would you rather I send her a 'copy and paste' of all the posts and let her judge for herself? I would be more than happy to - folks just need to give me permission to do so and it is done!
Again, I point out, I said nothing about her bitch, her conformation, her health testing, etc… only that "obviously" there was a reason that she had not been submitted... it was others that put words in my "mouth"... making it look as if I thought there was a "bad" reason.
Again - I never gave her particulars of who said what only what this readers overall impression was. And while I agree you never "said" anything per se, IMO, writing an open ended statement such as "obviously there was a reason she was not submitted" leaves much for the reader to fill in - which is of course where implications et al come in.
[qoute] In the end, I really have no interest in these particular imports and if submitted they would be judged as all the others have.
And THAT is the beauty of living in a world we do - interest is not forced on those who have none. I think that was KathyB's point - if they are not your cup o'tea - then you never have to use them but don't take away or make the decision for someone else who might have an interest.
Thanks for your reply Lisa. I will send along what you have written. Good stuff to know. I did not take her questions re: offspring to be "putting words" in anyone's mouths but I know we all read things how we see things.
Thanks too aAndrea - will be sure to send your positive thoughts to Susan as well.
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Nay Marie - yours are not the only posts to be deleted. My dripping in sarcasm post seems to have disappeared into thin air - luckily I have a copy of it if anyone cares to know what we are replying too. Nothing more absurd (or confusing) then to read replies to things that are no longer there.
Silly really we have to have a moderator step in to take care of things as though we are children vs the adults I thought we all were. And as you say - only certain posts from certain folks are targeted. Double tsk.
Heh! Kind of a waste of good material (sarcasm) but c'est la vie.
I dont say much about my dogs bc I see no reason to talk to anyone but buyers and co breeders and folks who are genuinely interested. I'm not exactly sure I have seen moderation done in precisely this way, but WTH.
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With out the dripping sarcasm - should make this a legal post:
I never said you specifically stated anything. However the implications were certainly there, in many of the postings not just yours, for people (sans Marie) to fill in the blanks and think badly or negatively about the reasons why they have not been submitted. I know how I read it and know from several private exchanges I was not the only one. Therefore I personally felt the need to find out vs just taking said implications as being based on any kind of fact.
I disagree. Whose impression should I give but my own?? How else does one start a conversation or query if not to give a bit of background based on my thoughts? Would you rather I send her a 'copy and paste' of all the posts and let her judge for herself? I would be more than happy to - folks just need to give me permission to do so and it is done!
Again - I never gave her particulars of who said what only what this readers overall impression was. And while I agree you never "said" anything per se, IMO, writing an open ended statement such as "obviously there was a reason she was not submitted" leaves much for the reader to fill in - which is of course where implications et al come in.
[qoute] In the end, I really have no interest in these particular imports and if submitted they would be judged as all the others have.
And THAT is the beauty of living in a world we do - interest is not forced on those who have none. I think that was KathyB's point - if they are not your cup o'tea - then you never have to use them but don't take away or make the decision for someone else who might have an interest.
Thanks for your reply Lisa. I will send along what you have written. Good stuff to know. I did not take her questions re: offspring to be "putting words" in anyone's mouths but I know we all read things how we see things.
Thanks too aAndrea - will be sure to send your positive thoughts to Susan as well.
The original tanza post is still up and Susan et al can make their own decisions about implications.
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Hi Patty,
If you are really interested in knowing the answer I would highly suggest ask the folks that are responsible for the Benin Avuvi's. So as not to post their private info to a public group -email me and I can send you contact info. Or if you are a BCOA member - look up: Susan Patterson, Anne Humphries and Brenda Greenberg Jones and drop them a line or give them a call. (I do not not include Marie cuz we know where she is and how to locate. I do not include Robert cuz I have no contact info for him but the others might) IMO, they are the only ones who can answer that question fully - the rest of us can only speculate and to be honest I would rather listen to fact than speculation.
As for Avuvi's being a distinct breed with the AKC - I am not sure what you mean unless you are refrring to the Avuvis of which Manu has written? If yes - I seem to recall Marie stating that Manu's dogs are not the same as the Benin but confusingly they share the same name so perhaps that is where the problems arise?
<shrug>I do not know but until such time that 1) they do not submit the dogs and the studbook is closed or 2) they submit but are denied - we can not say unequivaclly what they are or are not as there is no genetic test to prove or disprove otherwise.
Sure we can have our opionions but that is all it is - our opinion and only worth the monitor we type it on.
Again - go to the source(s) if you are truly interesrted.</shrug>
Avuvi is a fon word meaning Little Dog - it isnt the more common word for dog. Fons live along the West African Coast, in the southern part of several contiguous countries. North Benin has a whole different set of tribes and languages.
The name of Manu's dogs and our Benin dogs is coincidental to the fon language and the species (dog) and with Robert having contact with Manu. If you look at the BCOA guidelines for African imports you can see exactly where the Avuvis we speak of here are from. Manu has no connection with us. She did help out James J I believe with his dogs in a completely separate country/plan/expedition. Going back and googling Avuvi will bring in a lot of preliminary stuff by Robert, not necessarily relevant to the project related to the AKC/BCOA. This information can be used intentionally or unintentionally to confuse the picture and has been so use caution in interpreting it.
