JoT:
Since you presume to know me as you state "Once again…" and I do not know of any Jo's in the DRC, nor have had any conversations with any person who lives in the DRC I can only presume this is Jo Thompson from Ohio?
Regardless, I would have you please re-read what I wrote before the public flogging; I specifically asked for credentials and stated "as far as I know..." so of course I do not know since I admitted as much. :O)
Sorry, but I did not jump to any conclusions. Asking for more information is not jumping to conclusions - it is seeking more information in order to come to a conclusion, any conclusion. And since I have not studied the Avuvi to the degree you apparently have, I have little knowledge in who did what, and when and where, so I do appreciate the history lesson.
Now then - I would love to hear what my agenda is if you would be so kind since I have no native dogs needing inclusion and do not plan to have any in the foreseeable future.
Thanks.
Robert Dean got his information about Benin dogs (the CURRENT Avuvis) from A Peace Corp worker and a native friend of his. He did a lot of casting about before landing on this area. Manou was not part of the 2004 and 2009 Avuvi imports at all.
The Fon language is spread along the coast of West Africa, not respecting country boundaries.
Jo is known to have misstated and misquoted Robert in the past in an attempt to discredit him and the Avuvi dogs. Again, ,this kind of thing has been run off of the other lists, and has landed in this area. I have to admit it was amazing to see Robert actually have to get on the lists to refute some of these misstatements and clarify them in the middle of a personal crisis.
Jo is known by me to have taken on a false identity in order to send information to someone involved in litigation with me. She could only have gotten the information only one way, which identified her as the culprit. She also offered to be of help against me. She had no personal interest in this litigation except to do something to me. I was cc'd all the info by the person she was trying to help and made a fool of herself with this person.
So I wouldnt call her "facts" objective.
Avuvi Afonhaan (aka Honey) was one out of that group that if she had been submitted for the stud books through the BCOA process, she more then likely would have been accepted. However that was never done by her owner. Remember all, not only do they need to be of Basenji Type, but need to have good temperaments, health testing, etc. So there was obviously some reason that this little bitch was never put up though BCOA to be judged and voted to be admitted to the stud books.
Why dont you call Susan Patterson and ask her? There is NO REASON to keep Afonhaan out of the process that has to do with the dog or her pups (of which I have one, thank you, he is too tall to really show but was called "sound" by the judge. There isnt a thing wrong with him. Or with Honey. If she hasnt submitted yet, perhaps she has her reasons. Assuming there is something wrong is awfully presumptious and, in this case, wrong.
Well, we all have to start at Post #1. And I say that respectfully to all newcomers here.
What I don't "get" is when a new poster shows up, leaves an inflammatory statement, and then settles into the background. ??? I mean, if you want to join the conversation and debate with heartfelt emotions, that is great! But if there are no follow up postings, how can we "WELCOME" you to the forum?
But alas, when I think of the different shades of blue… royal blue, turquoise, meadow blue, sky blue, cornflower, baby blue... there are many names for it. Miss Robyn... what are the other names for shades of gray? Grey? lol...
Cheers!
They are 4 weeks old. D'uh.
I said: Even your involvement in the Lukuru project doesn't make you RIGHT or the ultimate expert on what is right for the breed.
However, lol, Dr Jo didn't say anything about the last imports, her views, etc… she only attacked Linda and indicated she was spreading propaganda to promote her agenda. THAT is the issue. Had Dr Jo stated her OPINIONS and why, this would have been a very illuminating educational discussion. All she did was ascribe such motives as if anyone who disagreed must have them as they couldn't actually have such an opinion. She didn't even say even say what she was attacking or what she assumed those motives were.
Jo has not seen my dogs, although she has tried to sneak her way in to see one of them by corresponding with someone who wants to adopt one of my imports, putting him in the middle.
Jo is not a judge or in any way certified to tell if a dog had basenji type as defined in the Western world. It has long been known, since 1875, that dogs from different areas have a different look. So of course West Africans will look different from Congo dogs.
No, I wasn't saying you have a history of stirring up trouble…but you do seem to ask questions, or present ideas in a way that pisses people off...I don't always understand why. Marie has a history of stirring up trouble.
No, I didn't read your post as an accusation. I was just posting a general note about this thread, not your post per se. My point was that not everybody knows that people here know each other, and sometimes have a history.
No, I honestly don't know what JoT was referring to as your agenda. I didn't think you 'had a dog in this fight' so to speak....but I certainly am not privy the everyone's feelings or interactions with everyone else.
Seriously, I was just trying to help people out who are regulars on this forum that are thinking "wth? why are these people so angry about this thread" I have no personal issues with anything you have posted here.
My sin this time is to put up pups for sale and fielding accusations.
There arent any of the older wiser breeders on here. If you want calm intelligent discussion and rational exchange of ideas, there are better places. There are many.
Sorry saw a few older wisers on here all of a sudden.
You know who you are<g>
I think about myself. If I were looking for a basenji from Africa, I would look under the category "basenji" so that is how I classify my dogs. Who would know to look under any other category I might make up? Again anyone inquiring gets plenty of information, probably more than they want.
One thing I dont want is someone wanting to return a pup bc it isnt a "real" basenji, and since I have a take-back, I explain in great detail what the pups' heritage is.</g>
They are 4 weeks old. D'uh.
OK, you can't accuse me of being a back yard breeder! lol :):)
I still want to see baby pictures… and while it isn't any of my business, I wondered if you had commitments for these babies.... and if not, maybe this thread will continue until they are all gone? LOL 
What is the longest thread on here, anyway?
Happy Holidays! Patty;)
Why dont you call Susan Patterson and ask her? There is NO REASON to keep Afonhaan out of the process that has to do with the dog or her pups (of which I have one, thank you, he is too tall to really show but was called "sound" by the judge. There isnt a thing wrong with him. Or with Honey. If she hasnt submitted yet, perhaps she has her reasons. Assuming there is something wrong is awfully presumptious and, in this case, wrong.
Do not put words in my "mouth" or "posts". I said there must obviously be reasons that they have not been submitted. I did say she was not because there was something wrong with her….. I don't really care why they have not been, only stating that they have not been.
I was less happy waiting on Fanconi when I found out newer imports from Congo had the allele Previous imports from both areas were totally negative.
If by previous you mean the 2006/7 Avongaras and the Lukurus then your statement is not accurate. One Avongara and at least one Lukuru are listed with the OFA as IND. As we all (should) know IND are to be treated as carriers at this time because we do not know exactly what they are but presume they are either clear OR carrier. Until the direct test or test breedings to DNA clears are done we will not know definitively.
I still want to see baby pictures… and while it isn't any of my business, I wondered if you had commitments for these babies.... and if not, maybe this thread will continue until they are all gone? LOL
Happy Holidays! Patty;)
Thanks.
As I said several times, I have photos and you can email me anytime and get them and any other info. I wont be back here unless necessary so messages to me through this thread or my profile might not get answered.
One pup is spoken for, one of the males.
Just had a lovely hour playing with the babies.
Marie
If by previous you mean the 2006/7 Avongaras and the Lukurus then your statement is not accurate. One Avongara and at least one Lukuru are listed with the OFA as IND. As we all (should) know IND are to be treated as carriers at this time because we do not know exactly what they are but presume they are either clear OR carrier. Until the direct test or test breedings to DNA clears are done we will not know definitively.
I meant the Avongaras of 1990 and the other Avuvis
I know of the other two, that is what I was referring to as the two Congo dogs with the allele. AFAIK those are the only ones so far. I thought the other Congo dog was a CAR.
Fanconi is in process. Fanconi cam to light due to inbreedding. This doesnt mean I dont have affecteds or carriers and I do need to test. I was hoping to get a job but hasnt panned out so I am getting the testing now.
Responsible breeders test BEFORE they breed. If they do not have the money to test then they don't breed. Doing anything else is IRRESPONSIBLE.
Shame on ME?? For what? I have made so far 7 people happy. I will be adding to the genetic diversity of the US basenji.
You do know that what you just wrote is what any puppymiller, mutt breeder says. As for adding to the diversity, not if your dogs aren't admitted. And diversity of untested dogs.. that we don't need.
There arent any of the older wiser breeders on here. If you want calm intelligent discussion and rational exchange of ideas, there are better places. There are many.
Sorry saw a few older wisers on here all of a sudden.
TRANSLATION: Agree with me, wise. Don't agree with me, stupid.
Maybe I have a little bit of a sense of humor. None of these accusations and opinions about Avuvis are new since 2004. They have been run off of legitimate lists and are now at rest here.
It is sad indeed that you don't realize claims to have "been run off the legitimate lists" means you might have bullied people to shut up or leave, it doesn't mean legitimate people with legit concerns don't question you.
Responsible breeders test BEFORE they breed. If they do not have the money to test then they don't breed. Doing anything else is IRRESPONSIBLE.
Exactly.. needs repeating.
RMHolt, it was me that called Manou an expert and I did so because she seemed so very knowledgeable when I talked to her about the Avuvis when I met her at Crufts one year. I had never met anyone who had such an extensiv knowledge of the Avuvi. You obviously think I'm wrong but haven't said anything that contradicts what she told me.
I find the Avuvis very interesting and can't understand why there is a need to classify them as Basenjis! I'm sorry that you refuse to post pictures as I'd love to see the puppies.
Your quote -
'I was less happy waiting on Fanconi when I found out newer imports from Congo had the allele. Previous imports from both areas were totally negative.'
I'm not sure I understand this statement perhaps you can clarify it for me? Do you mean that at last the Fanconi allele has been identified? Is it possible to identify the 'newer imports' or is that a question that shouldn't be raised on this forum? Which 2 areas are you talking about?
I do hope you'll reconsider posting pictures.
Rose Marie, you have done transport for BRAT. Yes, you have saved some lives. I just don't see why having litters of dogs who have not been accepted into any registery and have not had health testing done before breeding, is a good thing.
Re Wheat and breeding. Wheat's old owner is responsible. She will only breed dogs who have been passed in all health testing, and accepted. She isn't dabbling to make a name for herself or make money. She is in it for the long term.
NOT every dog should be breed. Heavens, don't we have enough mixes to rehome???
I find the Avuvis very interesting and can't understand why there is a need to classify them as Basenjis! I'm sorry that you refuse to post pictures as I'd love to see the puppies.
Your quote -
'I was less happy waiting on Fanconi when I found out newer imports from Congo had the allele. Previous imports from both areas were totally negative.'I'm not sure I understand this statement
Obviously not her, but since she seems to post and leave for a week..
I don't have any issue with them being submitted to BCOA. I am not sure most do if the type and health clearances meet. I could be wrong, but I think the issue is advertising them as Basenjis without them being admitted to BCOA or acknowledged as such.
The second I thought was pretty obvious… maybe I am wrong. But I read this translation:
I didn't do it because I didn't want to do it because I didn't have the money to be responsible so I just bred anyway (to make a buck?) and anyway... so far none had tested for it and even though it was the responsible thing to do, I hoped no one would catch on so now using an excuse to cover my butt.
Obviously this thread just can't have an ending. I just shake my head. I would figure by now pretty much everything that has been needed to be said has been said.
Can we just drop this thread now? All the information is there for people who want to start at the beginning and read on. RMHolt has left her contact information for anyone interested. Many of us on here disagree with some of her practices/comments. Some understand RMHolt and what she is doing. No matter how many posts continue to bash both sides, nothing good is going to come out of this. I really ask that everyone lays this to rest. If you need to continue, perhaps you can send private messages back and forth.
If you feel the urge to reply to this, please message me privately. Please let us have this be the last post of this thread. Private messages from now on. Thank you.
Fran, honestly, if you are not a forum moderator and you feel that strongly, you are free to ask them to lock it. However, if not a moderator, while I appreciate you think it should close, the reality is you simply don't need to click on this thread. I am perplexed at your feeling you should police the actions of others by repeatedly asking them not to post. No one is forcing you to read it. Others obviously still have things to say.
Though I agree, btw, that no new information is going to be given on the litter and it has been beaten to death given that… oh yeah, no responses to direct questions from the breeder are going to come. But considering the flames from RMholt toward Dr Jo, I'd be pretty surprised if this thread is done.
Debra, I am not a forum moderator. I'm sure you know that, as the term 'Moderator' is not found anywhere near my name. See, those are the types of comments you make that people don't like.
I would hope that everyone here can use the forum to the intent it was set up for, so no need to lock a thread or to have me police it. But I feel strongly that the commentaries now going on in this thread are more about bashing people (you're one of them getting bashed, but I have no doubt you can take care of yourself , as everyone else can ) than commenting about the breed.
I don't think this forum was set up as a place for this hissy fitting grumbling. If I had read a thread similar to this when I joined the forum in February of last year, I would have run for cover - and I don't frighten easily. But it would have made me feel that people were placing way too much emphasis on their egos - drilling their points across instead of letting those who read make up their own minds. My comments were written to try to take a little gas out of this thread, and get it back to where it started, if that was what was needed for it.
I had been still reading this thread because to me, it became psychologically a very interesting take on how humans communicate about a common subject. The ego often gets involved. But I will take your suggestion and stop reading this thread. No sense in bashing my head against some bricks.
I will continue to read your other posts, as you do have a great deal of useful knowledge to share, which I enjoy.
Now, as I have taken your suggestion to stop reading this thread, please take my suggestion and message me privately if you feel you have to add comments to what I have said here.
Well, I'm not a moderator. I'm not a breeder. I'm just a basenji lover…. although I never knew I loved basenjis, until my Lucy found me. IMO, or IMHO, or WTFPGAO (WTF People, Get Along Opinion).. we need to respect the Facts... However you see the Facts, please respect them. And with that being said, I LOVE basenjis. Love, Love, Love, with a capital L… or is it a capital B?;) lol
So if you are like my family, and we just are simple basenji lovers…can that be a new standard? 
If that is the case, it's time to be happy. :o RM Holt has puppies to sell, and based upon all of this mumbo-jumbo, none will end up in rescue with a sad story. Here I am in sunny Florida, looking for homes for forlorn rescues ..and I am ineffective. Sadly,the little girl I wanted to save is not over the Rainbow Bridge, but she is no longer of this world.
Love = Love.
Take a step back, please. Relax. We are ALL here for one reason… to love our basenjis. Constructive feedback... that is all a wonderful thought!! :0
Happy Christmas!
