@eeeefarm - Totally agree with both of you, while I don't do the "restrain the pup", but if it works great and in a pinch it does work for me if really needed. When we have pups (babies) and Mom is tired of them and puts herself in a position that they can't reach her, they turn to the next adult in the house.... same thing will happen if they get over excited and yes, I have seen Basenji Moms, pin the pup to the ground and/or other adults in the home.... so it is something that a pup understands. Walking away works for me... or I try to change up the "game" by turning to working their minds and getting them to think about other things. In the Basenji Breed this is another way of teaching them that the prior behavior is not acceptable. They learn pretty quickly. Thanks for posting this thread eeeefarm... well needed...
Koehler Method
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While I don't know very much about Koehler, but I have heard it referred to a negative reinforcement or as someone else described it "Crank and Yank"…. not a very good method for Basenjis (or any other dog) IMO
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I have heard it referred to a negative reinforcement or as someone else described it "Crank and Yank"…. not a very good method for Basenjis (or any other dog) IMO
That is what I was thinking, I can not find much positive reinforcement, and I am half way reading it, so that is why I was asking, I do not picture my basenji obbeying my commands just because the leash and I say so…
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Sadly my first basenji and first obedience dog was started using the Koehler method and his work ethics were never like those basenjis that have followed him. While he was able to get his CDX and was trained through Utility, I could kick myself for listening to trainers who never had my dogs best interest in mind but, I was a novice and clueless to boot.
Here is an example of what positive training can do.
Enjoy.
Fronts and finishes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07eVc30dNy8Dumbbells, articles, and moving downs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkF200Vcsk4
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Sadly my first basenji and first obedience dog was started using the Koehler method and his work ethics were never like those basenjis that have followed him. While he was able to get his CDX and was trained through Utility, I could kick myself for listening to trainers who never had my dogs best interest in mind but, I was a novice and clueless to boot.
Here is an example of what positive training can do.
Enjoy.
Fronts and finishes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07eVc30dNy8Dumbbells, articles, and moving downs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkF200Vcsk4Many of us have been there and worked through that Linda… goodness knows you are not the first or last....
But now we can impress on people that these training methods are "old school" and certainly not for our breed... (or any other I might add)
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I do agreee, good thing that I got to know all this before applying the wrong method on my dog. I wish I had more experience and apply what is best and avoid what is wrong when training Nilo, being that he is my first basenji. I just hope to do the closest to the right thing and still, I am sure I will still lack so many things but thank you for sharing your opinions and help me with your suggestions. I really enjoyed the videos!
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His methods aren't for ANY dog. I hate his ideas only slightly more than the new fad
LOL Cesar Millan love
http://vet.osu.edu/education/quotes-experts -
Hooray for this forum - saved another Basenji from the 'Punish' method of training.
Like some of you others I started out with the negative method (was there any other then?) but quickly realised that it was a no-no for our beloved dogs.
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This is funny now that you are talking about these methods promoted in TV shows: have any of you been advised by other dog owners (not basenji owners) to follow this methods? Sometimes I just do not know what to answer,I do not want to offend but this gets on my nerves, really! We know that many basenjis are not precisely calmed or easy walkers on leash, mine tends to pull, I am still working on it. He has improved, that is true, little by little he is now walking by me HOWEVER when he sees another dog, cat, any 4 legged creature passing by, he forgets his manners. Well this is what happened this Saturday night: we were walking on the street and voila! There it was a dog and an owner. We started chatting a little bit while our dogs were sniffing each other. Nilo was excited and pulling, he would SIT when told but not STAY, that he did not pay much attention to. So this owner I believe with all his good intentions, goes: Have you watched this fantastic show on TV called such and such…? I told him that I was not really fond of it because I did not agree with some of the techniques and as a matter if fact, my former dog, a siberian husky which I tried this method with, did not respond well at all to the ALFA mentality, quite the opposite, the results were pretty bad. I told him that all breeds are different in trainability levels so they respond different to this ALFA methods. Ok, that led us to the end of the conversation.
Next day: At the dog park dogs are having fun while owners are discussing about weather conditions, economy situation, and of course: dogs, and the topic is brought up again, the fantastic show that we should all try...ahhhhh Please! Is there any owner around that thinks differently and understands that a TV show is not enough to understand and even less, to train your dog and our breed does not get along well with the Whispering stuff, that basenjis decided to play deaf to this whispers????
Please tell me WHAT -and above all- HOW should I respond to these 'advises'? -
Honestly, I have yet to find a civil discussion about Ceasar Milan or Raw Feeding. I used to be on a general dog board and every time CM was mentioned it was a free for all. You know the old joke about dog trainers? The only thing 2 dog trainers can agree on is that the third trainer is doing it wrong.
As far as your dog meeting another dog, I'd suggest (anyone wanna guess??) the Look at That game from the Control Unleashed book.
As far as how to respond how about "I just don't feel those methods have a place in my relationship with my dog". If they argue, just repeat the above. It's hard to argue with someone who just repeating the same thing in a neutral tone.
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As far as your dog meeting another dog, I'd suggest (anyone wanna guess??) the Look at That game from the Control Unleashed book.
As far as how to respond how about "I just don't feel those methods have a place in my relationship with my dog". If they argue, just repeat the above. It's hard to argue with someone who just repeating the same thing in a neutral tone.
What is Look at That Control Unleashed? Could you please tell me the name of the author so I could look for it?
Regarding the answer for the TV show fans, thank you, I will put that into practice! -
I usually just respond by saying something like 'yeah, he makes it look easy in a half hour TV show, in real life it is usually a little more complicated'
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Leslie McDivett is the author of CU
I just talked someone else into reading it; but I do not recieve
any royalties
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Koehler is SOOOOOO old school.
Just burn the book, you will get far more out of it _.There is nothing positive about Koehler… yuk yuk and yuk!_
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Hahaha! I would burn it…the only thing is that the book belongs to the Public Library, so I don't know if I should...:)
I am glad that I am not the only one who thinks that a TV show is just far away from real life, thank you for your responses and tips. I will look for Leslie Mcdivett's Control Unleashed.
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Most people seem to forget how much editing goes into producing a TV show. With the right editing, I am sure my basenijs could be made to look nearly perfect. It might be a very short video but I'm sure some clever producer could make it work.
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With the right editing, I am sure my basenijs could be made to look nearly perfect. It might be a very short video but I'm sure some clever producer could make it work.
The shorter the video, the more space for commercials - a Basenji obedience training video would be perfect for producers trying to sell advertising space on video
Seriously though, I've found Patricia McConnell's book "The Other End of the Leash" useful when working with Rocky and Roxy, along with "My Dog Pulls. What Do I Do?" and "On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals", both by Turid Rugaas
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You are very right, everything is about cut and paste and results will be just perfect, altought I would need a lot of "delete" with my bsj…:)
Thank you for the suggested readings
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A good idea Ivoss, we could all have perfect Basenjis (or seem to) - mind you they'd be very boring in my opinion! LOL
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Because I believe Kohler and some are abusive, and Milan abusive and well dangerous, I don't try to be diplomatic. I tell them to go to veterinary behaviorists sites and see what they say and that they will find what I said is true. I then talk about building relationships with a PARTNER, not man-handling or dominating. I tell them if I put a shock collar on a toddler or husband I could teach them fast… but all trust and relationship are gone. That there are positive ways to train. Of course i also tell them I have 20 yrs experience with Rotties and chows and rehab for aggression and if I can do those with positive training, so can they. And I offer to give them a few free hours if they need help.
That said, have I ever used force? Yes. I had a dog go after someone in my house (actually the rescuer who brought the dog to me to evaluate and try to "fix"). If I had to kill a dog, even my own, to stop it hurting a person, I would. But I don't share that with non-dog people. I tell them if they have a dog that the ONLY way they can handle it is with force, they need professional help and fast. I am 54 years old in 2 weeks, and the number of times I have really had to use any kind of domination much less physical corrections has vastly decreased as I learned more.
Basenji and chows have a common trait... you want to train, make them think it is fun and their idea.
And Linda, I share your pain. My first Rottie, not Koehler... but I used a newspaper on her and some harsh tones. She was the softest of dogs, never ever should I have had to correct her. I was young, I didn't know. But I looked at her and literally used to cry thinking of how much damage I did for no reason other than my inexperience. She never learned to think for herself, she always had to check with me. I did all sorts of confidence building, but she was confident except about ME.
I just hope I have helped enough other people to make up for it. -
"On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals", both by Turid Rugaas
I am 100% certain that without Calming Signals, Jet the try-ing would never have finished his Open or Excellent agility titles.
