I agree. She is such a friendly little gal.
Please help…Tosca nipped at my 8 wk old!
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Thank you for the suggestion, I'll try that
It is so weird, because she has sat near me while I've nursed Colton tons of times, with no problems. I am thinking it might have something to do with the fact that she was comfortable laying next to me, and when I moved Colton, he invaded her space? Like I said, the one time she growled at me was when she was sleeping and I moved her. She was awake, but maybe didn't like Colton coming so close when she was comfortable cuddling with me.I know it's hard to say without having seen the situation, but from what I wrote, do you think it will probably be a one time thing? The rest of the evening she has seemed fine towards all three of us, but we have not really let her near Colton without us there between them. I did pet her while holding Colton (I held him to the opposite side and approached her gently) and she was fine…I thought that was important. I really really really am hoping this was an isolated incident...she does not normally resource guard...I can pull a rawhide out of her mouth, and I can reach into her food dish while she eats no problem. She did once growl at my toddler-aged nephew when he tried to get her rawhide, but this also seemed to be a one time incident, and she did not nip.
If anyone has more advice, please keep it coming. I would hate for anything to happen to make us have to get rid of her, but I know my husband won't tolerate risking the safety of Colton...so am willing to do whatever I can to make sure things run smoothly between the both of them from now on.
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I would say the internet is a wonderful thing, but I think in this case I'd look around for a good trainer who uses positive methods. I'd want to set up a few private lessons and have them assess what's going on in your home. It's very possible that they may see something going on that you're not even aware of and can give you some guidence on how to create a happy home for everyone - baby and dog included. Problems may get worse as baby becomes mobile if you don't address them now. And the problems certainly sound small enough now.
It may be a bit counter-intuitive, but you don't want to scold a dog for growling. Growling is a warning system and you don't want a dog that will snap/bite first instead of growling. This is why it is important to find someone with positive methods.
But until you can get a trainer, certainly Lvoss's suggestions of kongs on a mat are GREAT. My pups really enjoy cream cheese mixed with kibble and frozen. And you want the dog on the mat not next to you on the sofa just incase she is resource guarding.
good luck and I really, really think you situation won't be too difficult to over come.
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There is a group called dogs and storks that usually work with families expecting children but they probably could also help point you in the direction of someone who can help now that the baby is here.
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If Tosca was a 5 year old child, whose nose was out of joint due to an incoming brother or sister, and were to similarly strike out though in a human way, would your husband's first thought be to get rid of her? I hope not! I assume you would both learn how to manage the problem long term so everyone can live peacefully. So why is a dog not afforded the same effort? And effort it will be!
Dogs have three key resources - in order of priority: food, shelter and social interaction. Food is obvious - anything the dog deems edible falls under this title, even days old road kill or what I call bunny buttons so never take it for granted that your dog will not find something unappetizing to you, appetizing and snap or bite to protect it. Shelter would include all the prime spots in the house to which they are accustomed (couch, bed, comfy chair) while examples of social interaction would be petting/cuddling by the owners, playing with another dog and/or the owners, etc. Despite what we think - our dogs do not love us quite as much as they love what we can provide - good food and comfy couches. While sad to hear, it is actually in our best interests that this be true - 'cuz if you can control the resources and you can usually control the dog.
Tosca has already shown resource guarding tendencies - growling when you moved her on the couch, growling at the nephew, etc. And while it is great that you are able to take rawhides away from her and/or her food bowl - it does not mean this translates to all humans having the same rights, esp. little humans and it does not mean she does not have the propensity for these kind of issues to continue to crop up. And while Tosca has shown remarkable bite inhibition, do not take it for granted she will continue to do so.
IMO, Tosca is treating Colton no differently then she would treat a new puppy added to the house. The exception being that you would have the puppy down on the same level as Tosca, you would be encouraging Tosca and the puppy to play and interact with each other while also knowing (and expecting) Tosca to eventually lose her patience with the pup and scold it at times, or air snap at the pup when/if the pup got to close to a prized possession. And Tosca would be well within her rights to do this; as the elder she has many lessons to teach the youngster about respect if they are to live harmoniously long term. It is when humans get involved between elder and pup that mixed messages crop up and wanna be alphas are created - but I digress.
The minute you got pregnant was the minute Tosca's life changed or should have changed. You should have been preparing her for the arrival of Colton and for the arrival of some major rule changes that must occur for pampered dogs and babies to co-exist with out overt risk to the baby. By preparing her I do not mean letting her smell the baby blankets or introducing her to other people's babies and toddlers. I mean teaching her deference (see below) exercises to show her her eventual and rightful place - at the bottom of the totem pole. Tough love really works wonders and spoiled dogs, while resistant at first, are much happier when they know their rightful role. Sadly most people fail to do this months before so it is a shock to the dog when the baby comes home and life as they know it, all the rules they have spent 5 years learning and mastering, immediately change and usually not for the better. Is it any wonder dogs seem resentful?
Is this an isolated incidence, a one time thing? IMO, no - as Colton gets older and more mobile and has the ability to actually invade Tosca's space - it could intensify if you do not get professional help as Kim suggested. Certainly if you, or your husband continue to handle it in the manner you did (scold her (well after the fact I might add) then put her outside) you will actually increase the odds that this will continue and will probably escalate to a bite which breaks skin. As Kim stated - NEVER correct growling. Growling is the dogs way of communicating that something is not right. Instead redirect and diffuse and never put yourself or Tosca in that position again.
Besides teaching Tosca deference the best thing you can learn to do is manage the situation. You seem overtly concerned about Colton's safety while forgetting or ignoring Tosca's, even putting Tosca in harms way. How? As we all should know - when it comes to a human vs dog altercation - esp. a child vs dog altercation no matter how minor the dog will ALWAYS lose, oftentimes with its life - that is not having the dog's safety in mind. The question begs - why was the dog put at risk? By that I mean - why do you have a prized possession (a rawhide) accessible to a toddling nephew who has no respect and certainly no concept of boundaries in the same room, or area, as the dog whose prized possession it is? You are asking for trouble. This is just an example of what you will need to be aware of and learn to manage if you truly desire to have Tosca be a future, permanent member of your family. Tosca relies on you to keep her safety in mind, just as you have Colton's and just like Colton she can not speak for herself and tell you what she needs or that she is uncomfortable etc. It is YOUR responsibility to see that she is never put in a position to be wrong or to fail. If she is - then YOU have failed her.
So you learn your dogs triggers, what does or does not work. Rawhides and other prized possessions (watch your dog to learn what they are - you might be surprised) are fed and enjoyed in the confines and safety of a nearby crate. Babies and toddlers are not allowed in the feeding area when a dog is getting fed, or they are fed crated as well and toddlers are taught to respect the dogs area. It is a two way street - esp. when the child gets older and more mobile - they too must learn what they can or can not do to the dog members of the family and that the dogs have toddler free areas to relax and 'let their hair down'.
Nursing time is not cuddle time with the dog. She needs to be on the floor or her mat or in her crate in the same room, as Lisa rec'ds enjoying something fun during this time, to create positive associations with Colton and to further bond her to him. A professional can give you further guidance.
How to teach deference via the Nothing in Life is Free:
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Nothing In Life Is FreeDoes your dog: Get on the furniture and refuse to get off? Nudge your hand, insisting on being petted or played with? Refuse to come when called? Defend its food bowl or toys from you? ?Nothing in life is free? can help. Nothing in life is free? is not a magic pill that will solve a specific behavior problem; rather it?s a way of living with your dog that will help it behave better because it trusts and accepts you as its leader and is confident knowing its place in your family.
How To Practice ?Nothing In Life Is Free:?
.... Using positive reinforcement methods, teach your dog a few commands and/or tricks. ?Sit,? ?Down? and ?Stay? are useful commands and ?Shake,? ?Speak? and ?Rollover? are fun tricks to teach your dog..... Once your dog knows a few commands, you can begin to practice ?nothing in life is free.? Before you give your dog anything (food, a treat, a walk, a pat on the head) it must first perform one of the commands it has learned.
For example:
YOU: Put your dog?s leash on to go for a walk YOUR DOG: Must sit until you?ve put the leash on
YOU: Feed your dog YOUR DOG:Must lie down and stay until you?ve put the bowl down
YOU: Play a game of fetch after work YOUR DOG: Must sit and shake hands each time you throw the toy
YOU: Rub your dog?s belly while watching TV YOUR DOG: Must lie down and rollover before being petted.... Once you?ve given the command, don?t give your dog what it wants until it does what you want. If it refuses to perform the command, walk away, come back a few minutes later and start again. If your dog refuses to obey the command, be patient and remember that eventually it will have to obey your command in order to get what it wants.
.... Make sure your dog knows the command well and understands what you want before you begin practicing ?nothing in life is free.?
The Benefits of This Technique:
.... Most dogs assume a neutral or submissive role toward people, but some dogs will challenge their owners for dominance. Requiring a dominant dog to work for everything it wants is a safe and non-confrontational way to establish control..... Dogs who may never display aggressive behavior such as growling, snarling, or snapping, may still manage to manipulate you. These dogs may display affectionate, though ?pushy? behavior, such as nudging your hand to be petted or ?worming? its way on to the furniture in order to be close to you. This technique gently reminds the ?pushy? dog that it must abide by your rules.
.... Obeying commands helps build a fearful dog?s confidence; having a strong leader and knowing its place in the hierarchy helps to make the submissive dog feel more secure.
Why This Technique Works:
Animals that live in groups, like dogs, establish a social structure within the group called a dominance hierarchy. This dominance hierarchy serves to maintain order, reduce conflict and promote cooperation among pack members. In order for your home to be a safe and happy place for pets and people, it?s best that the humans in the household assume the highest positions in the dominance hierarchy. Practicing ?nothing in life is free? effectively and gently communicates to your dog that its position in the hierarchy is subordinate to yours.From your dog?s point of view, children also have a place in this hierarchy. Because children are small and can get down on the dog?s level to play, dogs often consider them to be playmates, rather than superiors. With the supervision of an adult, it?s a good idea to encourage children in the household (aged eight and over) to also practice ?nothing in life is free? with your dog.
.. 1999 Dumb Friends League. All Rights Reserved. NILI_R99
It takes a special family, IMO, to face adversity head on and overcome it - much easier to just jump ship and start over though the results usually end up the same as nothing has been learned/gained by taking the easy way.
Sadly, responses like your husbands is a key reason I no longer place dogs with families planning children or families with small children.
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Just one question though about the trainer thing…do you think the problem is severe enough to warrant that? Not that nipping at my baby isn't severe, but since Tosca normally doesn't do things like that (see post above about being able to take food away, etc) and is usually completely comfortable around kids (minus the one time she growled at my nephew when he tried to take the rawhide, but that was yrs ago), I don't know if it would be effective? She is usually very well-behaved. My fear is that the trainer would come, see Tosca being her normal self, and wonder "Why am I here again?" Would he/she still be able to help if Tosca doesn't display the aggressive behavior? I am not saying it would be a bad idea, and I'll definitely look into it if you think it might help, I just don't know how trainers work...what do you think?? I am still hoping that this was an isolated incident, but like I said, will be willing to do what it takes to make sure this doesn't happen again, trainer or not. Thanks again
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It only takes one time, what Tosca did is an indication that something is not right. This is the time to get someone to assist, not wait until the problem is so bad you may never resolved the issue. I would venture to bet this is NOT an isolated incident because she has done it before… and also it would give you the resources to know how to handle the situation, as the response in this situation was not the correct one.
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In light of your husband's attitude and apparent "no strike" policy - I think the problem is very, very severe. Tosca's future hangs in the balance, IMO. She has not shown much trouble in the past because she has never had her immediate world rocked until now.
The trainer is there to give you ideas on how to keep problems from arising and/or escalating to the point that your husband kicks her to the curb. They will teach you how to manage, how to redirect, diffuse, how to keep her safe et al. They do not need to see aggressive acts to know what the potential is when pampered petchildren meet their replacement, and much more special, human children. It's a given!
Here are places I would start calling and researching in your area:
http://www.4paws-training.com/
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Just one question though about the trainer thing…do you think the problem is severe enough to warrant that?
In a word: YES.
The problem in the present may or may not be "severe" enough, the problem in the future could be too severe to safely keep everyone in the same house. As wonderful and experienced as the people on this forum are, we are not there to see the interaction. Seeing everything going on is invaluable information. Again, you may be doing something problematic without even knowing it. I would guess one to three visits (maybe an additional one later when Colton is a toddler) from a professional is all it is going to take to put everyone on the right path to a happy healthy home.
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I agree with the other posters. NOW is the time to get training, NOT later when the problem has worsened. I see it too often where people say their dog is great has no problems, then a few months/years later with no training, there is now a problem of some sort.
Why wait? Even basic commands like sit, wait, down etc can all help.
I do hope you and the human/furry family will have lots of fun times together in the future.
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Here Buana
We have a 5 months old son Ryan, we worked very hard to get our results with the Basenji's and Ryan.
The other reply's are very good I think,I think it's vey important Tosca will see the baby as a nice thing and not as somebody that will get more attention than see will get.
A lot of people play with their dogs when the baby is asleep and let them aside when they are busy with their baby.
When you have dogs and kids, you have a LOT of extra work..
We give the dogs a lot of attention when Ryan is arount, so they know when Ryan is awake, they get attention (of course they get attention too when he is asleep)
Sometimes it is very hard, when I nurse Ryan and one of the boys want to hug Ryan at the same time (lick his ears for example) it isn't easyI agree with the fact you have to train right away, it's a small problem now but when you don't react to it maybe it will grow larger..
It really is great when the dog(s) like the baby so much..Good luck, and congrats with you little boy
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And while I know that many on here follow the path of "just not moving" them if they growl when sleeping…. in my home, growl when being moved, you will find yourself on the floor. It is not tolerated. Obviously there is a difference between growling and "complaining" when being moved and "complaining is acceptable"... growling is not. My house, my rules
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Great advice above. Linda and Pat are right.
I will be interested to see if the parents like Kim and others with b's can give you
advice that will help.
BUT honestly, hubby has set a line..you need to find a way to make sure your b doesn't cross it. -
I totally agree with pat - I do not allow my dogs to growl just because they are being moved.
Please take the previous advice to get professional help.
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Just one question though about the trainer thing…do you think the problem is severe enough to warrant that? Not that nipping at my baby isn't severe, but since Tosca normally doesn't do things like that (see post above about being able to take food away, etc) and is usually completely comfortable around kids (minus the one time she growled at my nephew when he tried to take the rawhide, but that was yrs ago), I don't know if it would be effective? She is usually very well-behaved. My fear is that the trainer would come, see Tosca being her normal self, and wonder "Why am I here again?" Would he/she still be able to help if Tosca doesn't display the aggressive behavior? I am not saying it would be a bad idea, and I'll definitely look into it if you think it might help, I just don't know how trainers work...what do you think?? I am still hoping that this was an isolated incident, but like I said, will be willing to do what it takes to make sure this doesn't happen again, trainer or not. Thanks again
Being a trainer, I can tell you…no trainer is going to question why you would seek help in this situation. You need someone to give you suggestions and guidance to keep this from happening again. Linda is right that it will most likely get worse when the baby is toddling around, and grabbing at the dog and her stuff. But that doesn't mean it is an impossible situation, nor that the child is in imminent danger.
It may be an isolated incident (probably not)...but it does give you some insight into what she might be thinking (baby, stay away). Best to take steps to correct it now.
Most importantly, don't panic...lots of us have gone through this same situation and had everything turn out fine...and don't let your husband panic
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And while I know that many on here follow the path of "just not moving" them if they growl when sleeping…. in my home, growl when being moved, you will find yourself on the floor. It is not tolerated. Obviously there is a difference between growling and "complaining" when being moved and "complaining is acceptable"... growling is not. My house, my rules
Same here, Pat. And even complaining will ensure that I move you! We don't ingore the complaining…we still say "too bad, I am sitting down here"..or "too bad, you are going outside"...we never let a complaining dog have its way
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Same here, Pat. And even complaining will ensure that I move you! We don't ingore the complaining…we still say "too bad, I am sitting down here"..or "too bad, you are going outside"...we never let a complaining dog have its way
Exactly Andrea…. and while I said "complaining is acceptable" I did still mean, you need to do what I am asking... But rarely will "complaining" lead to a nip/bite as it is a different type of warning/reaction
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Hi again everyone
Thank you for taking the time to respond and help us with our problem. I am going to at least call and speak with a trainer, and go from there. However, I have some questions, as I have no ideas how trainers work, Tosca is my first dog, and we have never had reason to consider a trainer before. I know several people with other dogs, but none that have used trainers, so when it comes to them, I am pretty ignorant on the subject.1.) How do you know a trainer is reputable? I don't have anyone to go to for references in this area.
2.) I doubt any of them in Sheboygan have experience with Basenjis, do you think this will be a problem?
3.) What will a trainer do? Will he/she teach me how to manage Tosca, or will he/she work with Tosca and try to fix the problem for us?
4.) What if Tosca doesn't display the aggressive behavior/problem when the trainer is here? That is most likely to be the case, since we have had her 3 years and she's growled a total of 3 times ever.
Thanks again for your help…I agree with most of what everyone had to say, and to hear it now it seems very obvious we need to do something now, not when a problem gets worse. There are simple things I can now see to do, like not letting Tosca near when we are nursing. They are obvious, but I never had the need to worry about it before, which is why I allowed it to happen. That will change now, though. There are, however, a few things I want to respond to...not that they matter so much, but things I want to clarify, because I feel they are misunderstood. I am not trying to be snarky, but just want to be able to defend myself a bit
"you don't want to scold a dog for growling." We did not scold Tosca for growling. I did make the mistake of ignoring her growl, as she makes a similar noise when she is happy, and I misread that. I completely agree that it is not good to scold a dog for growling, and I am glad she displayed that warning sign, I just regret not reading it correctly.
"Certainly if you, or your husband continue to handle it in the manner you did (scold her (well after the fact I might add) then put her outside) you will actually increase the odds that this will continue and will probably escalate to a bite which breaks skin." He did scold her, and put her outside for about 20 min, but it was immediately after the incident occured. Tosca nipped, I grabbed Colton away, and he came right over and dealt with Tosca.
Also, while he may not have acted completely appropriately, this has worked with Tosca in the past. I disagree with negative reinforcement also, and we have argued about this when we first got her, but I have to admit it gets him results. Tosca respects him, listens to him, and does not get into mischief when he is around, therefore he rarely has to do that with her. She is also not afraid of him a bit, loves him, cuddles with him all the time, and has never growled at him once. It's hard for me to argue when it worked so well for him, even if I choose not to behave the same way"The question begs - why was the dog put at risk? By that I mean - why do you have a prized possession (a rawhide) accessible to a toddling nephew who has no respect and certainly no concept of boundaries in the same room, or area, as the dog whose prized possession it is? You are asking for trouble." The reason we allowed this was because we had done it in the past before with no problems…however, I agree it was not a smart move, and we have never allowed anything like it since..I agree we need to make sure we don't set Tosca up for failure
Thanks again everyone for your input, I greatly appreciate it!
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I also just wanted to quickly add that Tosca has only growled at people 3 times, and this is in 3 years that we've had her. Once, when we first got her and I tried to move her while sleeping, the time with my nephew and the rawhide (probably 2 yrs ago), and then last night. This includes many times where my nieces/nephews (4 of them under the age of 6) have run around with her, touching her, and getting in her space. She always wags her tail, licks them, and loves the attention. Adults are watching the entire time, but since we have had no problems (other than the rawhide, but that was our fault for allowing my nephew to go near her while she had a valued treat), I didn't anticipate her growling at us last night. However, I know growling of any kind is not ok, and I don't want more incidences to happen as Colton gets older, so I do know the issue needs to be addressed and taken care of
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You can also try this website to look for a trainer. There are some in NE WI but I didn't see many really close to your area.
I found a trainer for my brother in another state on this site. They were having some issues as well with their dog when they brought the new baby home. I was able to get some references for this trainer which helped my confidence in the choice.
Good luck! Doing something now will definitely help.
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The site that Clay posted is a good one. The Certification Council for Pet Dog Trainers is a good organization with well defined requirements for certification. I would definately second the recommendation to start your search there.
1.) How do you know a trainer is reputable? I don't have anyone to go to for references in this area.
See above, finding a trainer with CPDT certification is a good start in finding a knowledgable, experienced dog trainer.
2.) I doubt any of them in Sheboygan have experience with Basenjis, do you think this will be a problem?
I don't think it is a problem. What you really want to find is a trainer who uses positive reinforcement techniques and hopefully has experience working with families.
3.) What will a trainer do? Will he/she teach me how to manage Tosca, or will he/she work with Tosca and try to fix the problem for us?
A good trainer will work with you to design a plan to help you and Tosca make this adjustment. It will probably have several parts to it, like working on specific skills and making modifications to your behavior and Tosca's to set everyone up for success.
4.) What if Tosca doesn't display the aggressive behavior/problem when the trainer is here? That is most likely to be the case, since we have had her 3 years and she's growled a total of 3 times ever.
That is okay, a trainer should still be able to help you develop a plan to help Tosca feel more comfortable.
I also want to add that growling isn't inherently bad, it is just information.
