A word from Susan Patterson re: Avuvi's

As stated at the bottom of this post - Susan Patterson has been in the breed since 1966. She has bred (under the Calypso prefix) at least 30 champions, some with multple championships in other countries. IMO, this track record makes many of us, if not all of us (myself included) on this forum, still in infancy with regard to breed matters.

Originally posted (in part) by tanza under the now closed "For Sale…..Nampa ID thread" re: lack of any Avuvi's being submitted to BCOA:

… So there was obviously some reason that this little bitch was never put up though BCOA to be judged and voted to be admitted to the stud books.

Marie replied:

Why dont you call Susan Patterson and ask her? …. If she hasnt submitted yet, perhaps she has her reasons. Assuming there is something wrong is awfully presumptious and, in this case, wrong.

As some of you might know by now - I like to go to the source whenever possible. So I did. I emailed Susan, gave her a brief synopsis of what has been implied throughout the Nampa, ID thread and asked for her input, if she so desired. I have her permission to post that reply here; any questions - email me privately and I will be more than happy to give you contact information so you can discuss the matter with her personally.

Since my personal business is really none of anyone else's, I hesitate to grace the mindless prattle with a response but the Avuvi dogs should not be penalized for the violent left turn that my life took in the spring of 2007 that for all intents and purposes took me out of dog breeding and showing, as well as torpedoing my plans for my Avuvi stock.

I made a good faith effort to do what I thought was necessary to complete the process for submitting Honey and Kuoabo for consideration to the African Stock Committee by taking the time off work and driving out to the National Specialty this past September in Colorado where the dogs could be evaluated but then was informed that, no, all the paperwork has to be submitted PRIOR to evaluations, with evaluation appointments already made and listed in the paperwork. (I thought the evaluations had to be done and the write-ups included in the application paperwork).

Another monkey wrench in the works is that Honey and Kudo had a litter and it is required that pictures of the puppies be submitted. One of the puppy owners has 'gone missing' as any breeder knows happens more often than any of us would prefer. Getting the sorts of pictures that we show folks are accustomed to taking of our dogs from owners who are not involved in showing can be an exercise yielding less than the desired results. Would an application be allowed if current offspring photos are not provided for each and every one of them? The glacial breeze that blows whenever the Avuvis seem to be discussed would lead me to believe that our applications might be held up or rejected.

When I talked with Anne Humphreys at the National (she owns Honey's litter brother, Kudo), we had expressed to each other our frustration at the logistical obstacles imposed by the application process, and the difficulty we have by where we live in getting our dogs evaluated.

Honey has had her fanconi test, OFA, CERF and her color genotyping done by Dr. Melekovits up in Toronoto. Kuoabo has had his color genotyping, but all other testing needs to be done. I recently found a vet who will do his hip x-rays without anaesthesia and who will allow me to be present. However, since I lost my job in October, quite frankly I absolutely do not have money available for anything like this, nor the application fees. Until I'm employed again, this sort of thing is not EVEN on my radar.

All the Avuvi puppies had their blood samples submitted to the Univ. of Missouri's bank of samples for fanconi testing back before the test were developed. At the time, Elizabeth notified Robert Dean via email (of which he sent me a copy) that all of the puppies were
clear of HA. However, repeated requests for official notification of this with emailed copies of that email to this effect have yielded no response. In my application I planned on printing out the email as part of the health paperwork.

I will continue to try and find the owner of the puppy with whom I've lost contact. Since I still hope to make the application for the two Avuvi dogs I have in my home in the coming year, I have plenty of time. Show people in other breeds near me have suggested that I approach all breed, hound/basenji-approved judges who live nearby to submit their names to be approved to evaluate native stock so that this part of the application process does not remain nearly impossible for me to manage. In my previous jobs since moving to my present location, I worked most weekends and finally gave up any dreams of showing AT ALL, let alone at the practice I enjoyed for the previous 30 years.

I can say that I am enjoying the hell out of living with my Avuvi basenjis. They are a joy and their behavior is absolutely no different than that of any other basenjis I have owned - and this is saying something since I have lived with basenjis continually since 1966, and bred 41 litters.

A new wrinkle in the Avuvi ownership I enjoy is that as of January 3rd, I will be greeting at the Kansas City airport the army officer from Benin (the country from which the Avuvis hail) who will be spending a year at Ft. Leavenworth at the US Army's Command and General Staff College. I am to be his civilian sponsor, supporting his experience at the Fort and introducing him to American life. I have already warned him that two native dogs from Lissegazoun share my home, and that dog ownership in America is very, very different from that in Benin. Can you imagine my enthusiasm and excitement at the thought of being able to develop a friendship with such a contact from the country that gave me Honey and Kuoabo? What a rare and fantastic opportunity! And this is the first time that Benin is participating in this exchange program of the Army's that dates back to the 1860's. Truly, I am blessed with this chance to learn so much about where my dogs come from - the country and the people, from someone already on the fast track to become a high ranking member of his nation's armed forces.

So, several things: Until I am employed again, the health testing on Kuoabo will not be completed, nor will I be submitting applications to the native stock committee of the BCOA on my dogs. I need to get All breed judges from nearby approved to do the native stock evaluation . I need to find the missing puppy owner, but if this is not possible, then all I can do is submit the puppy pictures from before she left our house in North Carolina. I had taken pictures of both Honey and Kuoabo in 2008 in anticipation of application, then updated them in September 2010 the week of the National Specialty.

In the meantime, I wait. The dogs are doing well. There are no health or behavioral problems. They are easier to live with than any other dogs I have ever had. I am thrilled to live with the only native-born basenji with a conformation title in the Western Hemisphere - and that she beat AKC champions in order to WIN that title. I am even more thrilled to know that her DNA and mitochondrial DNA has been used by canid research scientists all over the world to aid them in canine and wolf migration studies. What a thrill to know that the dog in my bed descends from ancient dogs who came with two wolf packs down out of eastern China, southwest into Africa, and that all of the northern and northwestern African dogs, including the Turkish breeds, descend directly from her same mitochondrial DNA. (that last courtesy of an Italian group of researchers from a 2005-06 study)

When I first met Avongara M'Bliki (and was lucky enough to get a son out of her - Reveille Calypso Trapper), I was ever reminded that she was a living, breathing connection to the jungle, and to thousands of years of dogs before her. When I was lucky enough to get Avuvi Afonhaan, it was startling how closely she resembled Trapper. He was half Congo, she was all West Central Africa, and yet everyone presumed them to be father and daughter. At the Rhode Island National Specialty, I always walked them together and all those basenji people presumed theirs to be a familial relationship. I took great delight, every day, in pointing out that the young bitch, in fact, was the Avuvi import. At our large North Carolina kennel, visitors were always asked to pick out the Benin import from among the 15 or more basenjis we had. No one EVER could do so correctly. Inevitably, they would choose our brindle Kibushi Get Sirus daughter, a 1/4 African. Even Honey's sickle tail was not enough of a deterrent in the face of her strong basenji type.

It is very easy for people to dismiss the Benin dogs as 'not basenjis' until they see with their own eyes the recognizable type. The photographer for the Rhode Island National remarked to me on the phone when I was ordering the fabulous movement picture he made of Honey when she was in the ring about her incredible reach. I replied that it was pretty good for a 'fake basenji' - and then explained that probably most of the basenji people at the show refused to accept the Benin dogs as "real" basenjis. He was astonished, then angry. He told me that he'd spent hours upon hours taking thousands of pictures of alleged basenjis and that this bitch was as good as any of the better ones he'd photographed. I thanked him for his opinion, and was so glad that I'd been able to make the trip that year; Trapper died from a stroke only a month later,and the next April I found out I was going to have to dismantle the kennel due to my cousin's transfer overseas for 3-5 years, and I moved out to Missouri. I have only four basenjis now, 2 Avuvis and 2 brindles of my own breeding. All that was before is not now.

Robert Dean's life changed just as dramatically as did mine and at the exact same time. Through no fault of their own, the Avuvi imports that Robert worked for so many years to finally bring to the US are happily in homes where they are loved, but all the expectations he had for what he was going to do with them have been short circuited. Whatever people wish to entertain themselves with concerning this is their business. How interesting that certain people prefer to wish ill and manufacture negative innuendos while never bothering to contact the source (that would be me, Anne Humphreys and Brenda Jones-Greenburg) and check the facts. This reflects more on their lack of character and integrity rather than any aspect of the animals in question.

Of the six basenjis imported from Benin, plans were never always for breeding interest in only 5; the sixth puppy had an incorrect bite and both Robert and I felt that breeding a problem that had already impacted his survival in his native environment was irresponsible. I have two of the puppies, Humphreys one, and Jones-Greenburg the other two. Submission of any of the dogs to the Native Stock Committee has everything to do with the owners and their own particular circumstances and nothing to do with traits and/or characteristics of the dogs themselves. Sorry, conspiracy theorists. I can only speak for myself on this, but if anyone wishes to visit and examine my two Avuvi dogs with their own eyes and hands, they are welcome to do so. I have absolutely nothing to hide.

Thank you, Linda, for taking the time to email me and apprise me of your concerns. I certainly appreciate your effort and gesture. All the best to you and your basenjis in the coming year.

Sincerely, Susan Patterson, Calypso Basenjis
Happily at home with basenjis since 1966. "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

I hope some of you find this as interesting as I did.

Not sure what your point is…. All I said was that there is a reason, I never stated that I had any idea why, be it good, bad, indifferent... It was RMH that assumed that I was saying there was a "bad" reason they have not been submitted... not me. And I think Honey is very much Basenji Type.

And to email her and give her "your" impression of what was implied is improper at best. Again, I point out, I said nothing about her bitch, her conformation, her health testing, etc... only that "obviously" there was a reason that she had not been submitted... it was others that put words in my "mouth"... making it look as if I thought there was a "bad" reason.

In the end, I really have no interest in these particular imports and if submitted they would be judged as all the others have. IMO until they are admitted to the Stud Books they should be referred to as something other than Basenjis.

There is an approved breeder judge about 2.5 hours from her and also approved breeders about the same distance. It is the all breed judge that is about 6 hours away but if she looked at the show schedules she may find that some approved judges may be in her area for a show and could make an appointment that way.

As for her questions about offspring that have been lost track of, she should really address that to the committee and get an answer rather than put words in their mouth.

Thanks for posting that Linda. I was wondering what happened to Susan, and am glad to hear that she is still considering presenting Honey for AKC inclusion. Best of luck to her, in all of her endeavors.

By the way, not that it has anything to do with Susan Patterson (well maybe indirectly) but RMH's puppies are on puppyfind.com

@tanza:

By the way, not that it has anything to do with Susan Patterson (well maybe indirectly) but RMH's puppies are on puppyfind.com

If my posts are to be blocked then it is unconscionable that posts about me should be allowed.

Yes, my pups are on Puppy find. So are lots of other good breeders. So are puppy millers and BYBs. Caveat emptor. Thanks for the advertising. There is a lot of info and some photos in my ads. You all know what questions to ask. It has been the only online service I have used so far but it isnt the ad service that defines the quality of the breeder.

Pat did mention temperament and other potential negative issues that might be slowing down the application besides conformation. I and I presume Susan did not like the implication that there could be something besides conformation intrinsic to the basenjis from Benin that was negative. Perhaps she did not intend for her words to carry this implication but thats how it was read. My Avuvis are my best dogs, and I got some damn good domestic ones from a show breeder, as well as part owner ship of the 3rd Grand Champion basenji who is a very sweet tempered dog as well. In fact if you want a sweet temperament and health, and dont want an African, she would be someone to check with.

@tanza:

By the way, not that it has anything to do with Susan Patterson (well maybe indirectly) but RMH's puppies are on puppyfind.com

Susan has been breeding for 40 years and has no need for an ad service. Any exchanges between her and me has been to edify me. Her association with me came about bc she decided I would make a good Avuvi owner and she sold Apollo to me. I subsequently got Macho, my other Avuvi 2006 from the second of two Avuvi litters, so another long time breeder was also satisfied.

I certainly have no influence on Susan who is as decent a person and as responsible a person and breeder as you could want. Your implication that my association with her reflects poorly on her is laughable. Anyone who would criticize Susan as a breeder I would have to question their facts or reasoning. It is just unimaginable to me. Plus she is just a caring, empathetic person and has a brilliant mind.

She has been actively breeding for decades but has had to put dog activities on hold due to life circumstances. If she breeds again, you could do a lot worse than to look for a Calypso basenji, domestic or African.

Thank you for posting this interesting comment from Susan Patterson but I still don't understand why it seems necessary for Avuvis to be accepted as Basenjis. Will the AKC not accept them as a distinct breed?

Who is criticizing Susan, gezzz, stop putting words in my "mouth"? Susan has some lovely Basenjis and again, I think that Honey is a very nice example of a Basenji and certainly I would not have a problem with her being admitted to the stud books, if and when Susan decides to do so. And I never said that there was anything wrong with Honey, nor did I infer that there was… In mentioning temperament, all the imports that have been evaluated for acceptance, temperament was part of that. I have never inferred that there was anything wrong with Honey's temperament.

Since the other thread was closed and lots of people asked for pictures of your pups, I didn't really want to totally hi-jack the thread and only put as a reference for mentioning the pups. Since this thread is from Linda with an email from Susan, only made the reference because you have had connentions with her when you got you first Avuvi's. That and nothing else... certainly I just could have started a new thread, but didn't. My mistake if people think that I am trying to reflect badly on Susan, as that is not the case.

And yes, some responsible breeders do have ads on Puppyfind, never said that there were not responsible breeders there... I have had ads there in the past too...

By the way, not that it has anything to do with Susan Patterson (well maybe indirectly) but RMH's puppies are on puppyfind.com

Wow. Even when the thread is not about Marie - we just can't stop ourselves from bringing her up in such a negative light. Novel thought - why don't we (collectively) just be honest for once and say once and for all what we really think/feel about Marie as a breeder, as a basenji owner and as a human being since it is apparent we think so poorly of her that we must all be reminded daily of her transgressions, lest we forget and think maybe 'she's not so bad'. We could start a separate thread, dump all our righteous, judgmental BS into it and never again have to bring her up in such backhanded (to this reader) ways - instead referring people to the thread to see why 'we are great and she is not.' It really makes a person wonder if we(collectively) somehow want to see Marie's pups end up in bad homes and needed rescue, just to prove our collective spiteful points. (Now THAT, dear people, IS me DRIPPING in sarcasm!).

@tanza:

Not sure what your point is…. All I said was that there is a reason, I never stated that I had any idea why, be it good, bad, indifferent... It was RMH that assumed that I was saying there was a "bad" reason they have not been submitted... not me. And I think Honey is very much Basenji Type.

I never said you specifically stated anything. However the implications were certainly there, in many of the postings not just yours, for people (sans Marie) to fill in the blanks and think badly or negatively about the reasons why they have not been submitted. I know how I read it and know from several private exchanges I was not the only one. Therefore I personally felt the need to find out vs just taking said implications as being based on any kind of fact.

And to email her and give her "your" impression of what was implied is improper at best.

I disagree. Whose impression should I give but my own?? How else does one start a conversation or query if not to give a bit of background based on my thoughts? Would you rather I send her a 'copy and paste' of all the posts and let her judge for herself? I would be more than happy to - folks just need to give me permission to do so and it is done!

Again, I point out, I said nothing about her bitch, her conformation, her health testing, etc… only that "obviously" there was a reason that she had not been submitted... it was others that put words in my "mouth"... making it look as if I thought there was a "bad" reason.

Again - I never gave her particulars of who said what only what this readers overall impression was. And while I agree you never "said" anything per se, IMO, writing an open ended statement such as "obviously there was a reason she was not submitted" leaves much for the reader to fill in - which is of course where implications et al come in.

In the end, I really have no interest in these particular imports and if submitted they would be judged as all the others have.

And THAT is the beauty of living in a world we do - interest is not forced on those who have none. I think that was KathyB's point - if they are not your cup o'tea - then you never have to use them but don't take away or make the decision for someone else who might have an interest.

Thanks for your reply Lisa. I will send along what you have written. Good stuff to know. I did not take her questions re: offspring to be "putting words" in anyone's mouths but I know we all read things how we see things.

And Andrea - I will send along your good wishes too. Thanks.

@Patty:

Thank you for posting this interesting comment from Susan Patterson but I still don't understand why it seems necessary for Avuvis to be accepted as Basenjis. Will the AKC not accept them as a distinct breed?

Hi Patty,

If you are really interested in knowing the answer I would highly suggest ask the folks that are responsible for the Benin Avuvi's. So as not to post their private info to a public group -email me and I can send you contact info. Or if you are a BCOA member - look up: Susan Patterson, Anne Humphries and Brenda Greenberg Jones and drop them a line or give them a call. (I do not not include Marie cuz we know where she is and how to locate. I do not include Robert cuz I have no contact info for him but the others might) IMO, they are the only ones who can answer that question fully - the rest of us can only speculate and to be honest I would rather listen to fact than speculation.

As for Avuvi's being a distinct breed with the AKC - I am not sure what you mean unless you are refrring to the Avuvis of which Manu has written? If yes - I seem to recall Marie stating that Manu's dogs are not the same as the Benin but confusingly they share the same name so perhaps that is where the problems arise?

<shrug>I do not know but until such time that 1) they do not submit the dogs and the studbook is closed or 2) they submit but are denied - we can not say unequivaclly what they are or are not as there is no genetic test to prove or disprove otherwise.

Sure we can have our opionions but that is all it is - our opinion and only worth the monitor we type it on.

Again - go to the source(s) if you are truly interesrted.</shrug>

Okay first, I also "read" the indication that there was some REASON Honey wasn't submitted with an inference, intended or not, that there was something wrong with her. I thought the implication was pretty darned strong…so am glad to have it cleared up.

As for Linda's post... why are you bringing it all up again? Pat said the pups were listed. She said nothing else.

But I will.. she is still listing under Basenji, she makes no note that they are NOT really basenjis and in fact lists herself as BCOA breeder when we all know this litter has nothing to do with BCOA but her listing it makes it seem so,and will have weight with the uneducated who go there for finding a dog. Further, she guarantees the health of the dogs that we all know she hasn't done the health testing on the parents.

And I find the colors a bit startling.

I wish her the best of luck, I wish those pups the best of homes, and I don't care to rehash the other thread. Life to me is pretty basic. You don't test before breeding, you aren't responsible and no dancing undoes that. You advertise dogs as one thing hoping to snare the unsuspecting, you aren't responsible. I judge the actions of people and anyone who pretends they don't judge others is a liar. We ALL make judgments, it is the basis for decision making.

Oh, I'm so disappointed I missed an oppertunity to see Honey when she was out here. I have greatly admired pics of her. I'll second what Andrea said in wishing Susan all the best in her personal life and in getting her pups put through the process of AKC registration. I'm not really sure why the lack of pics from one pup would cause the process to slow/halt as most of the dogs submitted have 0 pups to their name.

Folks,

Once again, please respect our forum guidelines. If you can not find a way to settle your differences of opinion in a civilized manner, our advice is to leave this topic alone.

Repeat offenders are going to be treated with a permanent forum ban.

But he/she started the fight by attacking me! Can't I defend myself?

This is a forum for the discussion of Basenjis, not a dueling society. If you feel attacked, please report it to the admin and then ignore the poster. Remember, however much you were provoked, if you attack a poster personally then you are just as guilty of breaking the rules.

If you feel that you need stop posting for a while because of a conflict with other members, please step back and email us directly before posting publicly about the issue.

We created this rule to make sure Basenji Forums has a friendly environment for discussion about Basenjis, as well as to shield new members from any arguments that could be brewing in the community. Best way to comply with this rule is to just let it go and move on.

As for Linda's post… why are you bringing it all up again? Pat said the pups were listed. She said nothing else.

True. True. But why bring it up in the first place? When I asked myself that and came to an answer - I replied as I did. Having read what folks think about Marie ad nauseam - it makes it hard for me to believe there was any positive motivating factors in the post. So I got sarcastic. Felt good actually. :O)

But I will.. she is still listing under Basenji, she makes no note that they are NOT really basenjis and in fact lists herself as BCOA breeder when we all know this litter has nothing to do with BCOA….

Personally I think she has every right to call them whatever she wants to. As stated earlier - unless and until we have a DNA test that can 100% include or exclude these dogs as being basenji - we can only go by phenotype. And as there is no perfect basenji, having seen funny/furry coats, funny colors, sickle tails et al in domestic and/or BCOA accepted stock - she is not necessarily off base in calling them basenjis.

No, she does NOT list herself as a BCOA breeder.

What she has written is: "Home based occasional breeder. Member Basenji Club of America.Special interest in breeding Africans."

She is a BCOA member.

She goes on to say: "Current vaccinations, Veterinarian examination, Health certificate, Health guarantee, Pedigree

Additional information: AKA Spot. Vivi and her sister are hard to tell apart! Friendly to people already and holding their own or more with the boys. Unique pale red/white coloring. These Avuvi pups are 1-2 generations from Benin, Africa where dogs live with people who own them and they have jobs as hunters and watchdogs. In Africa they have to fend for themselves for some food and water. They tend to be very affectionate and loyal to their people - pack. They are not for everyone, but if you are right for them you will never have a better dog.

Email for more information. At 4 weeks they are playing with each other and humans and trying to play with the adults which is not well received!"

Further, she guarantees the health of the dogs that we all know she hasn't done the health testing on the parents.

Her idea of guarantee might not be your idea but that does not mean she is misrepresenting anything when she says it. To guarantee a product means to repair or replace or pay incidental costs. If she is willing/able to do this - she is not being misleading.

Sorry - I do not see anything wrong in what she is posting nor do I see her misrepresenting herself as we continue to imply she is.

(I hope this fits under Alex's guidelines. :O)

@Alex:

Folks,

Once again, please respect our forum guidelines. If you can not find a way to settle your differences of opinion in a civilized manner, our advice is to leave this topic alone.

Repeat offenders are going to be treated with a permanent forum ban.

But he/she started the fight by attacking me! Can't I defend myself?

This is a forum for the discussion of Basenjis, not a dueling society. If you feel attacked, please report it to the admin and then ignore the poster. Remember, however much you were provoked, if you attack a poster personally then you are just as guilty of breaking the rules.

If you feel that you need stop posting for a while because of a conflict with other members, please step back and email us directly before posting publicly about the issue.

We created this rule to make sure Basenji Forums has a friendly environment for discussion about Basenjis, as well as to shield new members from any arguments that could be brewing in the community. Best way to comply with this rule is to just let it go and move on.

Where is it written that MY comments get deleted, yet ppl libeling me have free run of this forum? I dont think it is necessary to speculate about my ad - go look at it yourself and if you are a serious buyer, you can ask me anything and I will tell you everything, asked or not.

Marie

@agilebasenji:

Oh, I'm so disappointed I missed an oppertunity to see Honey when she was out here. I have greatly admired pics of her. I'll second what Andrea said in wishing Susan all the best in her personal life and in getting her pups put through the process of AKC registration. I'm not really sure why the lack of pics from one pup would cause the process to slow/halt as most of the dogs submitted have 0 pups to their name.

There are 4 pups from one litter and several pups from the second 2006 litter. That's 4 of the 5 intact 2004 imports that have litters.

Further, I have 3 pups from a litter of my Avuvis, but one is a 2006 pup, so only one of the Avuvi 2009 with pups to track down

@tanza:

Not sure what your point is…. All I said was that there is a reason, I never stated that I had any idea why, be it good, bad, indifferent... It was RMH that assumed that I was saying there was a "bad" reason they have not been submitted... not me. And I think Honey is very much Basenji Type.

And to email her and give her "your" impression of what was implied is improper at best. Again, I point out, I said nothing about her bitch, her conformation, her health testing, etc... only that "obviously" there was a reason that she had not been submitted... it was others that put words in my "mouth"... making it look as if I thought there was a "bad" reason.

In the end, I really have no interest in these particular imports and if submitted they would be judged as all the others have. IMO until they are admitted to the Stud Books they should be referred to as something other than Basenjis.

United Kennel Club may beg to differ. They also register "Basenjis" and all the 2004 imports are so registered. It;s kind of a strange argument - I list my dogs under "Basenjis" so people who are interested in such dogs have a chance of finding them. Everyone who expresses interest knows what he or she is getting from the first moment we have contact.

@DebraDownSouth:

Okay first, I also "read" the indication that there was some REASON Honey wasn't submitted with an inference, intended or not, that there was something wrong with her. I thought the implication was pretty darned strong…so am glad to have it cleared up.

As for Linda's post... why are you bringing it all up again? Pat said the pups were listed. She said nothing else.

But I will.. she is still listing under Basenji, she makes no note that they are NOT really basenjis and in fact lists herself as BCOA breeder when we all know this litter has nothing to do with BCOA but her listing it makes it seem so,and will have weight with the uneducated who go there for finding a dog. Further, she guarantees the health of the dogs that we all know she hasn't done the health testing on the parents.

And I find the colors a bit startling.

I wish her the best of luck, I wish those pups the best of homes, and I don't care to rehash the other thread. Life to me is pretty basic. You don't test before breeding, you aren't responsible and no dancing undoes that. You advertise dogs as one thing hoping to snare the unsuspecting, you aren't responsible. I judge the actions of people and anyone who pretends they don't judge others is a liar. We ALL make judgments, it is the basis for decision making.

The large range of natural colors of the basenji were severely culled from the beginning. You can tell this by looking at the standard and seeing what is specifically pointed out as undesirable. Or you can read VTW. Those are traits that were seen in nature and not desired by the Victorian show breeding class. Brindle used to be one of them.

No one gets a dog that doesnt understand 100% what they are getting. i take back and I dont really want to have to take back.

Nay Marie - yours are not the only posts to be deleted. My dripping in sarcasm post seems to have disappeared into thin air - luckily I have a copy of it if anyone cares to know what we are replying too. Nothing more absurd (or confusing) then to read replies to things that are no longer there.

Silly really we have to have a moderator step in to take care of things as though we are children vs the adults I thought we all were. And as you say - only certain posts from certain folks are targeted. Double tsk.

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