New foster Sophia need some advice

[DebraDownSouth]

@westcoastflea1:

opinion on feeding?
cesar
while everyone may not agree with all of cesars methods i believe that the principles behind them are sound

I have been training dogs for about 30 yrs. I have done rehab with dogs with fairly serious aggression issues. But don't believe me or others here… read up on experts. That you think his "principles" are sound indicates you may not quite understand what his principles are.

And now I am done. Connecting my telling you to lead and train to Millan's methods bothers me. I don't want anything else I say to you to get misunderstood as supporting or resulting in punitive training. I wasn't really blunt before, I was simply trying to keep my post short and simple. Yes, I feel that strong about Millan's methods.

http://vet.osu.edu/education/quotes-experts
Ohio State Vet site:

Quotes from Experts

World-renowned dog trainers, behaviorists and veterinarians had all warned National Geographic that Millan's methods had the potential for disaster. Below are quotes from noted experts:

• "Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years."
  o Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
  o Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine
• "Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like 'whispering' for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable."
  o Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA-Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers
• "A number of qualified professionals have voiced concern for the welfare of pet dogs that experience the strong corrections administered by Mr. Millan. My concerns are based on his inappropriateness, inaccurate statements, and complete fabrications of explanations for dog behavior. His ideas, especially those about "dominance", are completely disconnected from the sciences of ethology and animal learning, which are our best hope for understanding and training our dogs and meeting their behavioral needs. Many of the techniques he encourages the public to try are dangerous, and not good for dogs or our relationships with them ."
  o Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist
  o Co-owner of Animal Behavior Associates, Inc., Littleton, CO
• "Cesar Millan employs outdated methods that are dangerous and inhumane. Using a choke chain and treadmill to treat fear of strangers and dogs is completely inappropriate. Hopefully the National Geographic Channel will listen to the scientific community and discontinue production of The Dog Whisperer."
  o Vyolet Michaels, CTC (Certified Dog Trainer and Behavior Counselor)
  o Owner of Urban Dawgs, LLC of Red Bank, NJ
• "On his TV show, the main method Millan uses for aggression is aversives (leash jerks, kicks, snaps of the hand against the neck, and restraint, among others) applied non contingently. The aversives are non contingent because they are so frequent that they're not connected to any particular behavior on the part of the dog?the dog gets popped pretty much constantly. This results in a state called learned helplessness, which means the animal hunkers down and tries to do as little as possible. This is what Millan calls "calm submission." It's exactly the same thing you see in a rat in a Skinner box that is subjected to intermittent shocks it can do nothing to avoid. This can happen quite fast, by the way, shall we say in ten minutes? The dangers to the dog are obvious, ranging from chronic stress to exacerbating the aggression, i.e., some dogs fight back when attacked. This latter is the simplest reason that aversives are a bad idea in treating aggression. Even used technically correctly as positive punishment for specific behaviors like growling and snarling, aversives do nothing to change the underlying fear or hostility, so the best you can hope for, in the words of famed vet and behaviorist, Ian Dunbar, is "removing the ticker from the time bomb." Thus such methods substantially increase the risk to humans of getting bitten."
  o Janis Bradley, Instructor at The San Franciso SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
  o Author of the book, "Dogs Bite"
• Excerpt of letter from Lisa Laney, Dip. DTBC, CPDT, CBC to National Geographic before airing "The Dog Whisperer":
  o "The intended program depicts aversive and abusive training methods - treatment for some serious anxiety and fear based issues - being administered by an individual with no formal education whatsoever in canine behavioral sciences. The "results" that are shown are more than likely not long lasting changes, but the result of learned helplessness, or fatigue, neither of which impact behavior to any significant long term degree - at least not in a good way. For those of us who are pioneering the effort to end the ignorance that drives the cruel treatment administered upon our canine companions, it is disappointing to see that this programming will reach the masses - especially on the NG Channel. The ignorance that this program perpetuates will give equally ignorant people the green light to subject their dogs to abuse. In turn these dogs will react even more defensively, will bite more people - and end up dead."
• "I have serious concerns because his methods are often intimidating rather than motivating. On TV, the dogs do comply but often they're being forced to - you can tell by their body language: tail down, mouth closed, ears back, eyes dilated… I argue that motivating leadership is far more effective than leading through intimidation."
  o Steve Dale is the author of the twice weekly syndicated newspaper column "My Pet World" (Tribune Media Services).
  o He's also the host of syndicated radio programs Steve Dale's Pet World, The Pet Minute with Steve Dale; and Pet Central, at WGN Radio, Chicago.
  o Steve is a contributing editor at USA Weekend, special correspondent/columnist Dog World and editor-in-chief of PawPrints (a newsletter for veterinarians).
  o His books include "American Zoos" and "DogGone Chicago."
  o Steve has appeared on The Oprah Winfrey Show; National Geographic Explorer; Pets Part of the Family on PBS; several Animal Planet Shows; Fox News Channel, and Balance TV (Canada). He was a regular on WGN-TV Chicago.
  o Touted as reaching more pet owners than any other pet journalist, Steve is a frequent guest expert on radio shows all over America and Canada; he has been quoted in dozens of newspaper and magazine stories, including the Los Angeles Times, USA Today, and Redbook.
  o He is certified as a Behavior Consultant by the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants, and the recipient of many awards including the prestigious AVMA Humane Award.

[Patty M]

Wow, Debbie, I can understand your passion about non-Cesar techniques after reading your research. I often say that I've never seen a basenji on his show, lol. Have you ever watched Victoria…. I don't remember her show name (It's me or the dog?), but she's from England and uses other tactics that aren't so dominant.

One of the good things on this forum is that everyone can share their experiences and opinions, and others can benefit. If someone has a compelling argument for me, I'll listen.

Back to Sophia, I'm glad that you have her with you, Westflea. I know from your dealing with Sebastian that your heart is full of goodness and compassion and that you are taking good care of her. The poor girl has never been taught to socialize with people, so her confusion is understandable, and she really needs your love and patience now.

Keep us posted! (Insert hug and pictures of Sophia here please. :))

[westcoastflea1]

the message or principles that I personally get from cesar are to use calm assertive energy and to realize that it is alright to set boundaries for your dog without feeling guilty, that it is alright to have expectations of how your dog should behave and expect that those expectations will be met once the dog learns what they are
and doing this does not mean using harsh and punitive measures

i fail to see how my ability to glean these bits of positive information from what cesar milan has to say somehow equals my not understanding his principles?

the ability to take what is good and leave the rest does not equal lack of understanding or ignorance

i found debdownsouths no nonsense advice made me think of cesars rules boundaries and limitations and projecting positive energy
her advice made realize it was alright to let sophia know that there are rules in this house and that im the one who makes them not sophia,

which is why i thanked her for the lightbulb moment

if my thanks was offensive in some way i certainly do apologize

BUT…i certainly never in any way stated that anyone here on this forum was advocating cesar milan methods, i already know better then that

[DebraDownSouth]

Okay that explains it much better. And if you only take the positive, then good. Sorry if I misunderstood.

[Patty]

Having studied methods of very many animal behaviourists, trainers etc and all rather sceptically in relation to Basenjis, I agree that many of their methods aren't ultimately good for the breed and in some cases exceptionally bad. Like Westcoastflea I feel that one can take some methods that do work and are Basenji tolerant from quite a few of the various methods. From experience we can gradually glean what is best for our individual dogs. This is where this forum is invaluable, as we can learn from others' experiences as well as our own.

[westcoastflea1]

couldnt have said it better myself have included a couple of not great pics as requested

[DebraDownSouth]

@Patty:

Having studied methods of very many animal behaviourists, trainers etc …From experience we can gradually glean what is best for our individual dogs. This is where this forum is invaluable, as we can learn from others' experiences as well as our own.

Therein lies the problem though, Patty. When people post who lack fairly basic training knowledge and pick up things like Koehler and Millan, they don't have a CLUE what is good. Millan, like Koehler before, have major robot followers doing damage to their dogs that they do not have the ability to undo. So why not seek out the positive trainers to start with. It works for all breeds, especially basenjis

[listeme]

Westcoastflea, I want to make sure you understand that I'm not directly arguing with you personally. However, I know that folks use the googlemachine and that they read sources like basenji forums specifically for help with training issues, so I want to make sure to point out: basenji people do NOT recommend cesar. His methods, including the roll (which was in your first post referring to him), are not recommended for basenjis. The cesar roll would not be something "positive" to take from his principles.

Again, I know fosters have a lot on their plates. I fostered a boy a couple years ago for a year, and it was a big task that I could not do forever I applaud your efforts and your willingness to look at all places and sources for ways to help the dogs in your care. But I do feel strongly about making sure that "bystanders" know that we as a basenji community do not recommend his methods, including the roll.

[Patty M]

Awwww, Westcoastflea, Sophia is beautiful! I'm glad that you are open to everyone's comments on here; we all are thinking about your little girl and hoping that she's adjusting well to "real life". Keep up the great work!

[westcoastflea1]

who is the ultimate judge of a good training method and a bad training method?
im certainly in no position to make that judgement and freely admit it:)

is there anyone here who can state absolutely that they know the best training method?

unfortunately we dont have a divine being who can come down and make the final decision on the best way to train your dog:)

so all that any dog owner can do is try to find as much information as possible on the subject of dog training and glean from it what they can
the people who now have years of experience started out as inexperienced people looking for information they were obviously capable of processing the information they found and acting on it so i can only assume the rest of us are capable of that as well

there will be things that we try that dont work and things that we try that do
in dealing with my fosters i use cesars advice to be patient, to respect my dog, to look for signals that my dog might give me as a key to how the dog is feeling at the time and to feel empowered to place limits on the behaviors i will allow in my home

yes i rolled sophia twice it was non violent and very calm
am i continuing to do this? no
for no other reason then i think ive found something better to try

for sophia rolling was not an issue neither harmful nor helpful

would that hold true for all basenjis? of course not but this is sophia we are discussing not basenjis in general
right now we are dealing with sophias fear of loud noises issue
im using cesars advice to be patient, very very patient with her,
cant see how anyone can fault that

[westcoastflea1]

absolutely love the advice and support here
its like a little community with all kinds of different personalities
its been really helpful for me hearing so much advice from so many different people
sophia really is a little cutie

a trip to the dog park today certainly helped my mental health:) i think sophia enjoyed it too!

she is going up for adoption on friday i believe

[agilebasenji]

One day I went to the local (Colorado Springs) zoo and they were in the process of clicker training one of the elephants. Actually, I think they were training a new trainer to clicker train the ele.

[listeme]

Simon started out fearful of loud noises and has… improved He's still cautious, but young enough that I think it will mostly pass. One sort of odd thing we discovered by accident: we have a ton of action and scifi movies (teenage/college kids) and running them softly and then gradually increasing the volume sort of desensitized him. Scifi movies have a lot of "sudden" noises. Once we realized it helped him, then we upped the ante with pizza

Edit to add: Matrix and Lord of the Rings were awesome for this. I think the best part for Simon was that we were snuggly watching movies - he would lurch away at sudden sounds and then see us keep munching away and come right back. "Surely it can't be too bad if they're safe on the sofa; also, they have pizza." I'm pretty sure that's what he was thinking.

[sharronhurlbut]

Clicker training is used by many animal groups.
We saw Cheeta's clicker trained to lure course at their zoo.

[thunderbird8588]

Lovely pics of the pretty Sophia, hope she finds a great forever home when her adoption comes up.

[nomrbddgs]

@sharronhurlbut:

Clicker training is used by many animal groups.
We saw Cheeta's clicker trained to lure course at their zoo.

Lucky for the animals. Trainer's are starting to realize the benefits of clicker training. Training has come a long way in a short time. While some animal trainers still use the hooks on elephants, things are changing-very slowly though.

[Patty M]

West Coast Flea, how is Sophia doing? Is she "Bunny" on the BRAT Rescue page?

[westcoastflea1]

hi there
sophia is doing great, she stopped the humping behavior almost a week ago, the getting used to each other part is over and we finally meshed

unfortunately or fortunately ( im not sure which) she is leaving here tomorrow to go to her new home.

yes sophia is bunny on the brat page

her daughter is venus who i believe is still on the page as well

its going to be sooo hard to hand her over to someone she doesnt know when the brat volunteer comes to pick her up tomorrow,

im not really sure how im actually going to be able to just hand her over to a stranger, makes me cry just to think about it.

but im sure she will be very happy once she gets over being thrust into a new environment with new people for the second time in less then a month

i just wish there was a way to make that easier for her, if i could do that then i wouldnt mind letting her go nearly as much.

[sharronhurlbut]

Her new home will be so very happy to have her!

[gjrcvw]

@westcoastflea1:

who is the ultimate judge of a good training method and a bad training method?
)

Well, science, and the dog. We judge training methods by how effective they are. Does the training method work? Does it harm the dog in any way? Does it harm the human? Does it TRAIN the dog? Meaning, does it teach the dog what we wa nt taught? Or does it intimidate the dog so that bad behavior is somehwat suppressed but not necessarily changed?

Good training is simple, effective, and teaches what we want taught. Bad training is confusing or intimidating, teaches things other than we want taught. A good example of this might be:
Your dog tries to eat your cat all the time. You are at your wit's end. So you go out and buy a remote control shock collar. Every time the dog so much as looks at the cat, you shock the heck out of him. The dog changes hgis behaviour. He begins snarling aggressively at your child who happened to be in the vicinity when he was shocked for looking at the cat. He has 'learned' that your child triggers the scary shocks. He is no longer looking at the cat. He doesn't try to chase the cat. Instead he growls, shows fear of your child and concentrates on that.

So is the training method good or bad? You say above, "Who is to judge?" Well, I will. The training method is bad. The dog has indeed stopped trying to eat the cat but he has not LEARNED to not eat the cat. He has reacted to an aversive and has changed his focus. He is confused. He has learned the wrong thing.

Cesar Milan is admired by many people who are ignorant of dog training and animal behavior. He appears to get results. But I ask, what exactly do you want to teach your dog?

There are clear and correct methods for training animals. Aversives and punishment are not as useful or clear as positive training methods. Period. That is not opinion. That is science.

It is good that you have learned SOMEthing from Cesar. Learning to read dog's body language is very important. As is setting your parameters for behavior. Other than that, though, I would urge you to read up on animal behavior and dog training. Educate yourself, esp as a BRAT foster home, and you will be much much more equipped to deal with the idiosyncrasies of dogs in general.

Best of luck.