Does this breeder sound reputable?

[Quercus]

Everybody is making really good points here. I think it may be overreaching to consider normal child activity as abusive. Basenjis (in general) ARE a little less tolerant of normal childhood shenanigas (sp?) than lots of other breeds (in general). But that doesn't mean they are (in general) not appropriate for families. A basenji with good temperament AND good social skills may object to being accidentally fallen on, but will not do any actual damage….where a lab may not notice being fallen on.

Most families who are interested in investing time, money and love in a dog are not going to let their children be abusive the family pet. But kids do run, they do trip, they do throw balls, they do accidentally sit on a basenji under a blanket (ask Querk!), they do run around with food, and drop food, and try to pick it back up. There are lots of possibilities for bad dog behavior that have nothing to do with bad child behavior. So let's not exclusively blame kids.

In the brutally honest picture of it...dogs are dogs.....and they should be viewed and treated and respected as that. Parents are responsible, bound by love, genes, social pressure and LAW to keep their children safe. And if a dog is going to bite a child in the normal course of everyday life...then yes, the dog will lose.

IMO, if there is any doubt that a dog might not be okay with young kids, then the safest option is to not place with children. But, there is a HUGE difference between 5 and 12...and a lot of dogs would be fine with seven year olds that would hate living with two year olds...kwim?

I guess what I am trying to say, is that every dog in every situation is unique. I don't know if it benefits anyone to say 'Basenjis aren't appropriate for families with small children'

[lvoss]

Very well said Andrea. And as for your list of things that might happen living with a family, well, I think my husband has done well over half the things on the list. I know I have done a few.

[YodelDogs]

@westcoastflea1:

they feel the dog is there to entertain the kids. all kids need a dog right? so it better be good natured about the way the kids treat it
and many dogs go along with this, some even seem to enjoy it.

but for the dog that doesnt enjoy it and snaps or growls at the kids?
the kids dont get taken away its the dog that pays the price for the kids actions

I'm going to stick out my neck here.

I live in the southern US and I frequent a forum that is used by hunters in this area. The attitude of many of these "old school" hunters is exactly what westcoastflea wrote above. The men have their hunting dogs and they get a dog for the kids. The kids' dog is to keep the kids entertained and it is expected to accept anything the kids do to it, period. If the dog so much as growls at the kids, lord help it. The dog will get "whooped" or the family will "get rid of" it. The rare man will shoot the dog. Yes, shoot the dog. This type of attitude is gradually being reduced thanks to the calm education of members on the forum but it does still exist.

It isn't just hunters who have that kind of attitude though. I have run into many pet owners over the years who feel the same way. Well, minus the shooting. They really do expect dogs to tolerate anything.

[Quercus]

@YodelDogs:

I'm going to stick out my neck here.

I live in the southern US and I frequent a forum that is used by hunters in this area. The attitude of many of these "old school" hunters is exactly what westcoastflea wrote above. The men have their hunting dogs and they get a dog for the kids. The kids' dog is to keep the kids entertained and it is expected to accept anything the kids do to it, period. If the dog so much as growls at the kids, lord help it. The dog will get "whooped" or the family will "get rid of" it. The rare man will shoot the dog. Yes, shoot the dog. This type of attitude is gradually being reduced thanks to the calm education of members on the forum but it does still exist.

It isn't just hunters who have that kind of attitude though. I have run into many pet owners over the years who feel the same way. Well, minus the shooting. They really do expect dogs to tolerate anything.

Of course, there ARE people out there like that. In fact, I know an educated woman who had a family pet euthanized after her toddler tripped over it, and it snapped at him…not bit...growled/air snapped. She had the elderly dog euthanized THAT day.

Do I blame the dog? Certainly NOT...Do I blame the kid? Not at all...I blame the mom for having unrealistic expectations of the dog. Dogs used to be treated like dogs, there wasn't a bunch of unrealistic expectations of their behavior. If a kid teased a dog, and got bitten the parents chalked it up to a life lesson. Not every puppy owner thought their dog was going to grow into Cujo because it play bit their hands. Ugh, I could go on and on about how this is just one symptom of something wrong in our culture, but I will stop now

[westcoastflea1]

Quercus Basenjis

thank you very much you seem to have gotten the point of what i was saying especially this sentence "A basenji with good temperament AND good social skills may object to being accidentally fallen on, but will not do any actual damage….where a lab may not notice being fallen on".
AND so my point all along has been exactly that, where the lab will accept it the basenji might growl or snap and for many normal everyday families this is enough to suggest to them that the dog is a danger to the children and the basenji has to go
and AGAIN my point has NOT been that children are abusive or torturers or that we should blame them for their behavior, but that their everyday childish behaviors when seen through the eyes of the basenji might very well be considered abusive and the basenji will react accordingly, so why put the basenji in that position to begin with?
to me this discussion is along the same lines as placing a 2 pound chihauhua in a home with toddlers in it, sure you could say that many homes would be great the parents would teach the toddler etc etc etc but IN GENERAL it wouldnt be a good idea would it?
this is a rather extreme example but i hope it gets my point across?
so while i dont think there can be an absolute when it comes to any breed i still dont believe that basenjis IN GENERAL are AS GOOD as other breeds when it comes to dealing with the disrespectful, (meaning normal childish behavior) of children and many ignorant adults
BUT would we really want them to be?

i absolutely agree with everything else you said as well

[westcoastflea1]

hey robyn my family was from down south and you are absolutely correct
unfortunately even here in the north the attitude while not as extreme is still alive and well
take the family with 2 doctors mom and dad
highly educated in the million dollar home with the designer pup
mom and dad work 5 days a week 8 to 6 and have a nanny to watch 3 little kids
how much education or time do you think they put into teaching their kids how to respect the family dog? mom comes home exhausted throws frozen food on the table and calls it good, and if the dog keeps the kids entertained while she is doing so well thats even better isnt it?
so lets not look to closely at EXACTLY what it is that is keeping the kids so amused, because after all its just a dog right?

these families (and there are more of them then the other types of families) have a dog cause they have kids and all kids should have a dog and should that dog not tolerate the childrens normal childish behavior its gone, and yes ive seen the kids fall on the dog, dress it up in clothing and drag it around the house like a large doll,
is that wrong? no not if you are an adult basenji owner who knows how to read her dogs cues as to whether they enjoy something or not, but for 3 little kids to do so when they do not have what it takes to judge whether the dog is tolerating it or actually enjoys it is another thing altogether.
so whle this behavior may not be considered abuse i do believe it shows an extreme lack of respect for that particular animal, and should not be allowed, i wouldnt expect most basenjis to tolerate it as well as some other breeds might.
these families are not a minority and most of these families i dont believe should own a basenji, hence my statement that basenjis are not the best breed for families with small children

[westcoastflea1]

and again quercus you are absolutely correct

if you took 20 basenjis, normal basenjis, not hand raised from a breeder who specifically socialized them to put up with these kinds of behaviors and had a toddler fall over them while they were sleeping how many would growl or snap at the air?

and in the same situation if you took 20 brain dead yellow labs or any other breed that has been tinkered with to produce "dogs that are good with children" and ran the same test how many would snap and growl?
my bet would be that more basenjis by quite a few would snap or growl as compared to the yellow labs
and so how many would end up in rescue as needing homes for children over the age of 12 as compared to the labs?

[westcoastflea1]

and in case anyone is wondering at this point if westcoastflea has a life??

welp, the answer is a resounding NO i do not have a life

im home with sebastian 24/7 because between the howling when i leave the house which means i cant leave the house and now the back issues that mean he cant go for walks, or go to the dog park where we used to spend hours every day so that i COULD get out of the house at least for a little while, i can safely say "I HAVE NO LIFE", absolutely none for at least a month
so look forward to talking to yall for another few weeks

[nomrbddgs]

@westcoastflea1:

and in case anyone is wondering at this point if westcoastflea has a life??

welp, the answer is a resounding NO i do not have a life
QUOTE]

I have to laugh, sorry! LOL Sometimes, yes we all feel that way (at times only) Do you feel a little disturbed yet?? Sorry again, I have a strange sense of humor. Nice to have you around though.

But that is exactly what I mean when I say a child is a child and a dog is a dog. Dogs do not reason, they react. Children don't think-they act.

That's all. It's up to the parent to parent the child in a way that shows the child the consequences of it's actions. If you fall on a dog, you might get bit, but it's your own dang fault for not watching what you were doing.

[Quercus]

@westcoastflea1:

and again quercus you are absolutely correct

if you took 20 basenjis, normal basenjis, not hand raised from a breeder who specifically socialized them to put up with these kinds of behaviors and had a toddler fall over them while they were sleeping how many would growl or snap at the air?

and in the same situation if you took 20 brain dead yellow labs or any other breed that has been tinkered with to produce "dogs that are good with children" and ran the same test how many would snap and growl?
my bet would be that more basenjis by quite a few would snap or growl as compared to the yellow labs
and so how many would end up in rescue as needing homes for children over the age of 12 as compared to the labs?

I am not sure who is arguing on what side of the argument anymore I do know from experience and observation that Basenjis (and other dogs)that are raised from puppyhood around young children are usually bomb-proof. And I think that might have been the original point of this thread?? I am sure that there are dogs in rescue that may be great around kids….but as you said, if you don't know for sure, why risk it?

My main objection to your reasoning is that there is a HUGE...vast even....difference between toddlers and twelve year-olds. A dog that would not be suitable for a family with a three year old, may be perfect for a family with a seven and ten year old. And I disagree that the majority of families interested in having a family dog are running amok. Between interacting with hundreds of families through my dog training business, and probably that many within my circle of friends and aquaintances....I can think of very few that have a dog who is being subjected to child torture

[Kipawa]

@nomrbddgs:

Sorry again, I have a strange sense of humor.

Now, is it possible that ALL basenji lovers kind of have a strange sense of humor? Perhaps that is what draws us to these wonderful dogs.

[Quercus]

@westcoastflea1:

and in case anyone is wondering at this point if westcoastflea has a life??

welp, the answer is a resounding NO i do not have a life

im home with sebastian 24/7 because between the howling when i leave the house which means i cant leave the house and now the back issues that mean he cant go for walks, or go to the dog park where we used to spend hours every day so that i COULD get out of the house at least for a little while, i can safely say "I HAVE NO LIFE", absolutely none for at least a month
so look forward to talking to yall for another few weeks

No offense intended, but you need to find a way to be able to leave the house! I can't remember what his specifics are, but you need to find a way so that he cannot control your life by howling. Are you following any sort of behavioral mod program with him?

[westcoastflea1]

i agree more than i can say
reminds me of an incident when my son was about 6 his friend came up to me complaining that my son threw a rock at him
when i asked him why will threw a rock the kid replied because i threw one at him
nuff said

as to your sense of humor?

i just sent an email to a basenji person in gray near where i live who emailed me last night

part of the email i sent said and i quote "since sebastian arrived 2 weeks ago the only two activities that i have been able to participate in are walks and the dog park.

the dog park in particular has saved my sanity, we go there for hours everyday it provides me with a break from sebastian because when we are home he spends his time no more then 4 feet from me and sleeps in my bed

in the beginning i didnt get enough sleep due to sebastians cleaning of himself in bed for hours and at all hours of the night, thats when i REALLY needed some space from him and the dog park provided it.

now that ive been told that sebastian can no longer go to the dog park or take walks the only thing that is keeping me from running from the house naked screaming in horror while ripping out my hair is the fact that im just trying to take it one day at a time period.

that and a neighborhood dog friendly store that sells large bottles of red wine cheap

it should be fun for everyone here to watch my mental state slowly disintegrate as the days go by

you guys can start making bets on when i will finally crack

[westcoastflea1]

no offense intended?? none taken believe me
ill be the first to say i NEED to get out of the house

sebastians problem doesnt seem to be that he doesnt trust that i will come back. i know you deal with that by closing a door and an opening it a second later using a code word and increasing the time you spend on the other side of the door
the problem i believe is that sebastian doesnt want to be alone, period,
and he will howl and howl and howl if left completely alone

how on earth do you deal with that?
i have roommates and rent my home so i cant let him howl

ive been told that it may get better with time, that it could be that since he was in the shelter for a month he needs to be with people and that time will help him get over it

at times i have left the house when my roommate was home its a favor that i have to ask for so i dont ask often

he says sebastian whines a bit then settles down

so again i dont think its that he doesnt trust that im coming back its that he needs company, any company, not really choosy about who.

im hoping that maybe an adoptive home with a companion dog will be the answer?
but i have no way of testing this theory
in the meantime im stuck
any suggestions?

[Quercus]

@westcoastflea1:

no offense intended?? none taken believe me
ill be the first to say i NEED to get out of the house

sebastians problem doesnt seem to be that he doesnt trust that i will come back. i know you deal with that by closing a door and an opening it a second later using a code word and increasing the time you spend on the other side of the door
the problem i believe is that sebastian doesnt want to be alone, period,
and he will howl and howl and howl if left completely alone

how on earth do you deal with that?
i have roommates and rent my home so i cant let him howl

ive been told that it may get better with time, that it could be that since he was in the shelter for a month he needs to be with people and that time will help him get over it

at times i have left the house when my roommate was home its a favor that i have to ask for so i dont ask often

he says sebastian whines a bit then settles down

so again i dont think its that he doesnt trust that im coming back its that he needs company, any company, not really choosy about who.

im hoping that maybe an adoptive home with a companion dog will be the answer?
but i have no way of testing this theory
in the meantime im stuck
any suggestions?

Do you know why he was surrendered?
Is the info about him and his problems on another thread? I will look for it

[Quercus]

Wow! Okay so I read thru the other posts.

Has the pooping issue resolved? A few thoughts I had…he had tapeworms, right...so dealing with that is probably effecting his g.i. system. He is on some meds? or was...so that could mess him up too. And you mentioned marrow bones? Those will make for unpredictable pooping as well.

If he isn't destructive in the house, you need to just let him howl it out. Tell your neighbors and roomates your plan, make sure they understand that it is a training issue. And unless you allow him to realize howling won't make you stay or come back, he will keep doing it. Do short trips at first. Have someone else report to you how long he howled. Lots of these 'howlers' stop within 10 mintues or so when they realize it is useless.

Also, I think you may be throwing to much "newness" at him, in reading over your posts. He needs to settle and have a routine that doesn't include meeting new dogs and new people just yet, that could be adding to his anxiety. And that routine shouldn't be all about him, and what he wants. If this were my project, I think I would have a daily schedule, where I would have some time that I left the house (even if I didn't have to) and some walking time (can be slow to protect his back), and some training time. This dog has some special needs...but they should all be able to be addressed...but he might need some tough love

You are really sweet...I would never let a licking, growling, wormy dog stay in my BED!!

[westcoastflea1]

he was treated for tapeworms almost 1 1/2 weeks ago
sebastian has put on 2 1/2 pounds since he arrived and looks great.

sebastians routine has been a walk in the late morning then 3 or 4 hours at the dog park in the mid to late afternoon since i got him .
with this routine sebastians behavior has improved dramatically
the licking is much much better he is completely confident now when meeting new dogs in the last week sebastian played with several dogs and i even heard a few baroos from him when he was watching other dogs play

as far as obedience he of course has to sit and stay before going out the door, i worked on recall at the dog park,
right now im teaching him "go pee" which i think is important when its raining, he hates the rain , but needs to understand that when i take him out even if its raining its for a purpose and the quicker he does it the quicker we get inside, and hes one SMART dog, so hell learn really quickly.
so this afternoon i had some appts that i needed to keep so brought sebastian to my daughters house so she could be with him while i was gone
sebastian was fine he didnt even seem to notice i wasnt there,

so the problem isnt that i leave and hes worried i wont be back its that i leave him in the house ALONE
so if i understand correctly this is something that can only be cured by tough love?
if i know for sure that this is the right thing to do then of course ill do it.
i have decided that he will continue his mid morning walks, at this point they will be cut back to 3 blocks to the post office and 3 back letting him sniff as long as he wants and trying not to put any pressure on his harness
the idea is to let him poop on the walk so that way i can pretty much ensure that he wont poop in the house again .
could be right that its just a combo meds worms etc causing this strange behavior.

he had another pain episode last night even with the metacam and muscle relaxants i called the vet today to see if we need to up the dose from 20 mgs once a day to 20 mgs twice a day

i can try the tough love thing if i KNOW that it is the right way to approach this problem, my only concern is that sebastian gets rather frantic while looking for me racing thru the house and up the stairs and im not sure this would be good for his back right now?
ive also just been hoping that with a little time sebastian would improve and that i would then be able to leave the house without his howling am i just in never never land with that thought ?

[DebraDownSouth]

I agree… raising dogs to expect the unexpected and expect it to be okay is a good thing. I pick mine up, I turn them over, I take their food bowls or stick my hands in it and give it back or drop in even yummier stuff.

And having lived North South and west, the mentality of "if a dog bites kill it" isn't just a southern thing. Which is why a good home visit and evaluation is important. I have people come to MY house and I go to theirs with my own rescues. I want to see how kids behave at home and in public.

For the record, West, I didn't think you were saying all kids are abusive.

As for evaluating with children, again I urge you to contact Brat to work with you. Inexperienced foster homes are great but I believe should be used only on dogs already evaluated if possible. I teach dogs the "leave it" command. Then I have kids squeal, play, throw balls, ride bikes.. do everything possible to set off prey drive. I let them run toward the dog and pop them a treat. I work to teach them that children are a good thing. I have children give them obedience commands for treats. I have kids EAT around them (a challenge with basenji, lol). Needless to say I am less worried about basenji with children than my chow and rottie rescues, but you still want to know.

Not sure what the back issue is but if it is something serious, I can only agree that a home with kids for a dog who may have pain probably isn't good. But the not being able to leave alone must be handled or this dog is not placeable. If you absolutely cannot allow him to howl it out and stop before going in, Brat may need to find a foster home that has a dog for companionship and the ability to let him howl.

[sharronhurlbut]

Westcoast, can you block off the stairs so he only has one room or the downstairs, when your gone?

[debbi j.]

@westcoastflea1:

he had another pain episode last night even with the metacam and muscle relaxants i called the vet today to see if we need to up the dose from 20 mgs once a day to 20 mgs twice a day

i can try the tough love thing if i KNOW that it is the right way to approach this problem, my only concern is that sebastian gets rather frantic while looking for me racing thru the house and up the stairs and im not sure this would be good for his back right now?
ive also just been hoping that with a little time sebastian would improve and that i would then be able to leave the house without his howling am i just in never never land with that thought ?

Have you spoken to Roberta about Sebastian's issues?

debbi j.