8 month old is biting…can't get him under control
-
I would not be very happy going to a dog park where multiple dogs are 'having' to show submission by rolling on their backs frequently. That would indicate to me that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialised dog present as it is an extreme greeting requirement.
If its preceded by the play bow and part of play fine… under other circumstances I would not stay there with my dogs.
Well of course that's not going to happen. The lying down is for aggression not for training. We can't teach a pup to fetch a ball by holding him down if he won't go for it. I haven't got my point across very well. I would only ever require submission from a growling, aggressive, fearful dog and I have had these in the past as rescue animals. I would rather stop the behaviour in it's tracks in this manner. you can't withdraw attention on a walk so what would you do, given that this behavour hasn't happened before in the home? what wopuld you do if your dog had another dog in it's mouth with the intention to kill.
-
Please do not think I was attacking you - I am sorry if it came across as that. I was collecting several bits from different posts and responding to them in my post.
That's fine, we're here to discuss and learn from each other. I have a problem with aggression on the bed and sofa..nowhere else and I'm looking for help with that. lots of things tried without any change.
-
I'm sorry you having aggression issues on the bed and sofa. Have you read Jean Donaldon's 'Mine' which is all about resource guarding? My short answer would be, that if your dog cannot behave politely when given treat/toy/privilege its removed. Therefore no access to the bed or sofa.
I start all my animals off with limited access to the house, using puppy pens/ crates and as they learn the household rules I gradually increase their free access to areas of the house and if invited to human furniture. If they abuse the privilege their access is removed immediately. As I have cats and have had various hunting hounds living me from pups, fosters and rescues this is essential for their safety - but the cats have to abide by the rules too! I am lucky in that I generally live by myself so it is a very consistent environment that is provided for the animals.
-
I would not be very happy going to a dog park where multiple dogs are 'having' to show submission by rolling on their backs frequently. That would indicate to me that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialised dog present as it is an extreme greeting requirement.
If its preceded by the play bow and part of play fine… under other circumstances I would not stay there with my dogs.
Hardly means that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialized dog present at all. It's the dog telling the others his/her intentions and making sure the others are aware. You are being very overly protective or cautious.
-
Hardly means that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialized dog present at all. It's the dog telling the others his/her intentions and making sure the others are aware. You are being very overly protective or cautious.
But in the same way as when I go into a park/ room full of strange people I don't start by saying 'Please don't hit me, I don't want a fight' , I say 'Hello' and expect the same in return. Which is the same with well socialised normal dogs. Therefore I will not go to, or stay in, an area where there is a lot of dogs exhibiting their bellies/ dogs showing stiff 'dominant' postures. If there is a lot of butt sniffing, play bows, play fights great, but not the other.
I have exercised my dogs on and off leash in public places all their lives - but I choose those places with care, and I think I have social well balanced animals who fortunately have never been involved in any dog fights be they victim or aggressor. Sadly many people cannot read their dogs, nor have enough control should things start going awry so I personally feel prevention is better than a dog fight.
-
But in the same way as when I go into a park/ room full of strange people I don't start by saying 'Please don't hit me, I don't want a fight' , I say 'Hello' and expect the same in return. Which is the same with well socialised normal dogs. Therefore I will not go to, or stay in, an area where there is a lot of dogs exhibiting their bellies/ dogs showing stiff 'dominant' postures. If there is a lot of butt sniffing, play bows, play fights great, but not the other.
Eh..okay, but dogs have a different language than humans….you do know that right?
You might not be aware of it, but when YOU (human) enter a room with strangers, you actually do give off a body language depending on your personality. Aggressive, confident, submissive...etc.
You might be a confident person, and go right in and say "Hello". Others will stand off to the side by themselves. Some will gradually move closer etc. Does not mean one way is (as you put it) the "normal" way.Dogs have different personality's too. Some are insecure and will roll on their backs instantly, others will run in with confidence and start playing.
It's a shame you see rolling on the back as a bad sign. Something it most definitely is not.
I highly suggest getting the The Language of Dogs DVD.
But I understand some people are very protective. Dog fights are also a part of learning, and is also an important part of their growth in understanding behavior limits. I am not saying you should throw your dog into a fight, but avoiding other dogs just in fear of it happening is not helping a dogs social development.
-
tangokor, just a word of warning if you get your children to yelp or yelp yourself.
I did this with Malaika and found it whipped her up even more, i could see the excitement in her eyes and she leapt at me. I think the yelp i used was too high pitched maybe like an injured animal and it had the opposite effect to what i was aiming for. So what i'm saying is experiment with pitches. -
Eh..okay, but dogs have a different language than humans….you do know that right?
You might not be aware of it, but when YOU (human) enter a room with strangers, you actually do give off a body language depending on your personality. Aggressive, confident, submissive...etc.
You might be a confident person, and go right in and say "Hello". Others will stand off to the side by themselves. Some will gradually move closer etc. Does not mean one way is (as you put it) the "normal" way.Dogs have different personality's too. Some are insecure and will roll on their backs instantly, others will run in with confidence and start playing.
It's a shame you see rolling on the back as a bad sign. Something it most definitely is not.
Er yes I do know that dogs have different body language. Sarah Kaljnas' dvd, 'The Language of Dogs' is excellent and I bought it after listening to her present at the APDTA conference last year. I do not make direct comparisons to dog and human interactions but try to use them as analogies.
But when entering a dog park with 10-20 dogs running about I do not know those dogs individually , so I cannot correctly interpret each of their displays. Nor can I watch multiple dogs, I have to go on overall impression. Which I why I say multiple dogs 'having' (and this is key) to show bellies combined with dogs showing stiff 'dominant' postures causes me concern.
I have never said showing bellies by itself is a bad sign.
I have also added that this is my choice to exercise my dogs daily in off-leash in less densely dog populated areas, so I hardly think I am coming across as neurotic owner who does not let their dogs interact with other dogs, but I try to ensure that anytime my dogs have interactions with other dogs, and that its a positive experience for the dogs we meet as well as my own.
With apologies to OP for taking this thread off topic.
-
Hardly means that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialized dog present at all. It's the dog telling the others his/her intentions and making sure the others are aware. You are being very overly protective or cautious.
thats what I said. DOGS DO NOT FORCE EACH OTHER OVER ONTO THEIR BELLIES UNLESS THEY ARE PLAYING (i forgot the playing part… but it still holds for the fighting part). Any serious roll over onto the belly is an attempt to kill the dog not submit the dog. The Monks of New Skete who initially wrote about alpha rolls and whom made it popular have recanted their statements about it! The alpha roll was based on research on a pack of wolves who were a bunch of random wolves thrown together in captivity, they did not act as a natural pack of wolves would in the wild and this alpha rolling theory has been scientifically disproven.
But when entering a dog park with 10-20 dogs running about I do not know those dogs individually , so I cannot correctly interpret each of their displays. Nor can I watch multiple dogs, I have to go on overall impression. Which I why I say multiple dogs 'having' (and this is key) to show bellies combined with dogs showing stiff 'dominant' postures causes me concern
honestly entering a dog park where there are too many dogs to keep an eye on concerns me. It is too easy for a strange dog to be less tolerant of other dogs and start a fight.
Alpha rolls:
http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/Training/alpha-roll_no.htm
http://www.4pawsu.com/alpharoll.pdfthe dominance theory of dog training (ala cesar melan) has been disproven pretty often if you do a google search. Alpha members of a pack are not violent and generally only step in for extreme circumstances, generally it is the beta wolves that do the discplining and the lower ranking wolves who start fights over position in the pack.
-
This isn't true. Watch two puppies play and there's plenty of roll over. Watch a male and female play and flirt and there's plenty of roll over. Play with your puppy and watch it voluterily roll over to get a tummy rub. Watch basnejis play with other naimals and roll them over for a good sniff. to suggest that this is purely a killing move is silly.
The problem with withdrawing attnetion from a misbehaving dog is that it will create seperation anxiety and every time you need to go out, it will believe it's being punished.Dogs do roll each other in play, but that is out of context for what the original poster was referring to. The newest research does indicate that the science behind the "alpha roll" was flawed…and one dog never physically rolls another dog as a correction..the submissive dog rolls ITSELF to show the dominant dog respect, and trust "here is my neck and belly, I know you won't hurt me". Dogs who are having a SERIOUS to the death fight WILL roll each other and attempt to kill each other.
And no...withdrawing attention absolutely has NO bearing on separation anxiety. It is exactly how dogs tell each other that behavior is not appreciated.
-
Hardly means that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialized dog present at all. It's the dog telling the others his/her intentions and making sure the others are aware. You are being very overly protective or cautious.
That is right^^ BUT…the dog who is rolling over is initiating it...the dog who is dominating is NOT rolling him over until he submits.
Here is an analogy...you can teach your kids to share by praising them when they hand toys to you, or you can yank the toy out of their hand. The result is the same, you have the toy...but what did the child learn?
-
I agree Andrea, good analogy…
-
Dogs do roll each other in play, but that is out of context for what the original poster was referring to. The newest research does indicate that the science behind the "alpha roll" was flawed…and one dog never physically rolls another dog as a correction..the submissive dog rolls ITSELF to show the dominant dog respect, and trust "here is my neck and belly, I know you won't hurt me". Dogs who are having a SERIOUS to the death fight WILL roll each other and attempt to kill each other.
And no...withdrawing attention absolutely has NO bearing on separation anxiety. It is exactly how dogs tell each other that behavior is not appreciated.
thanks, my articulation has been lacking lately :S
-
Annimon- Thanks for the post. I agree, I'm not terrifying him just getting him in a position to relax. I don't know what else to do sometimes and don't want to use the crate as punishment either. I had teenagers here the other day and he was getting wound up, jumping and trying to bite and I had them stand still and stop play and he soon stopped. This is much harder to do w/ my younger ones who can get afraid and run and don't want to stand still when he acts up .
The past few days with the young kids away at camp have been pretty easy, I've had more time to focus on him and more time to get him excercised which does make a big difference.
The biting though sometimes I think is meaningful and not just play. He will go after my arms and legs sometimes when I'm trying to get something away from him or when I'm just relaxing, no play he will bite out of the blue. I've tried the yelping but I'm really not sure how much that's helping.
-
The biting though sometimes I think is meaningful and not just play. He will go after my arms and legs sometimes when I'm trying to get something away from him or when I'm just relaxing, no play he will bite out of the blue. I've tried the yelping but I'm really not sure how much that's helping.
Why are you taking things away from him? If you need to get something that he has, then you should be doing trading up. You offer him something of high value in exchange for the thing that he has. Having a cookie jar with something like duck jerky around for making trades works well.
Time outs are good tools and very effective in getting the point across that a behavior is inappropriate. If you do not want to use the crate for time out then have a room or ex-pen that he can be placed in for a few minutes while he calms down. Many times with young dogs they just get over stimulated and need that chance to calm down, some will even have fallen asleep before the time out is over because they were really just over tired.
-
Annimon- Thanks for the post. I agree, I'm not terrifying him just getting him in a position to relax. I don't know what else to do sometimes and don't want to use the crate as punishment either. I had teenagers here the other day and he was getting wound up, jumping and trying to bite and I had them stand still and stop play and he soon stopped. This is much harder to do w/ my younger ones who can get afraid and run and don't want to stand still when he acts up .
The past few days with the young kids away at camp have been pretty easy, I've had more time to focus on him and more time to get him excercised which does make a big difference.
The biting though sometimes I think is meaningful and not just play. He will go after my arms and legs sometimes when I'm trying to get something away from him or when I'm just relaxing, no play he will bite out of the blue. I've tried the yelping but I'm really not sure how much that's helping.
The thing is it isnt a relaxing position for dogs, it creates anxiety and also distrust.
A much better way would be to remove him from a situation as soon as you see him getting ramped up. Choose a room or tie where you can place him for a few minutes to settle down. Note which situations he is the worst in and remove him from those situations until he has better self control.
I would start working on Doggie zen as well, to help build that self control.http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/2522-doggy-zen.html
the book control unleashed would help as well.
-
I think as Malaika said that the human's yelp must have a certain pitch. Any excitement exacerbates the position. Whatever action you take it's essential that its done with calmness. It is best to calmly think through whatever action you decide to take. What you must always remember that a Basenji is not like other dogs and it's always wise if you are going to a trainer to make sure that they know Basenjis. It is almost impossible in my opinion for small children to keep excitement at bay and so makes it much more difficult as you need to train them as well!
I suggest that you carefully read through the very good advice you have been given on this forum and work out an action plan. It seems to me that it's essential that you can deal with this as it could be potentially dangerous.
As an example - in the early days in the UK some breeders tried to treat Basenjis as ordinary dogs because that's all they had experienced before - as a consequence their Basenjis became known as having aggressive temperaments whereas this was far from the truth.
Re restraint - it can work if done with love - I had a little bitch adopted from kennels who as soon as she started to get worked up I wrapped her in a 'cuddle' blanket and massaged her with Ttouch untill she relaxed. This worked perfectly and although she was 'cast out' of the kennels because they said she was so aggressive, she never showed agression to humans or other animals foir the rest of her life.
I would say that what is known as dominance theory never works on a Basenjii.
-
IRe restraint - it can work if done with love - I had a little bitch adopted from kennels who as soon as she started to get worked up I wrapped her in a 'cuddle' blanket and massaged her with Ttouch untill she relaxed. This worked perfectly and although she was 'cast out' of the kennels because they said she was so aggressive, she never showed agression to humans or other animals foir the rest of her life.
This type of restraint is very different than rolling a dog over on its back. What you describe is much more like the use of a Thundershirt or Calming Cap that are used for helping with anxiety.
-
I'm taking things away from him because he always has something he shouldn't and he's destroyed many things. The kids shoes, socks, toys, paper bags, his crate pad. So when he has these things I'm going to get them away from him not let him tear it up while I look for something else to give him. I'm trying to keep him from chewing up everything in the house!! And yes, I have basenji proofed the best I can w/ 2 kids in the house.
I do not have a room that I can keep him in. He will jump any babygate that I put up. So it's his either his crate or the backyard.
-
I keep treat jars in various rooms in my house, up on the mantle, on the kitchen counter, on top of my dresser, on high window ledges so I don't have to hunt for a treat, there should be one handy. Every time you take away something of value to him and he gets nothing in return, it only cements that he should gaurd the things he finds because you will just take it from him.
I really recommend watching and working on Its Yer Choice, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipT5k1gaXhc, so he knows there is something in it for him to make better choices.
If you have nowhere else for his time outs then his crate, use his crate. Don't do it out of anger though and have clear ground rules about what a time out is. It shouldn't be more than a few minutes.
