Why do breeders mix Basenjis with other breeds?

[vickilb]

I have a girlfriend who has 2 "designer breed" dogs.

One is a female ****zu/Min Pin mix. She totally looks like the dog from the movie "something about Mary". She has crazy wiry hair. She is a sweet, fun girl. Probably weighs 10 lbs, max.

The second is a freak of nature. I call him a spider monkey. He is a mini yorkie/chihuahua mix. He has super long legs and a long body and the tiniest little head. Might weigh 5 lbs. He can't climb any stairs, or jump up on anything.

I commented to my friend that her spider monkey might not live that long. I'll try to get a picture of him, next time I visit.

She paid $500 to a pet store for the first dog and $800 for the spider monkey. She got the spider monkey from an ad on craigslist.

I am the first to tell you that I love dogs. All dogs. Got that from my Mom. But, this little freak of nature has got to be the scariest thing I have ever seen. He just doesn't look right. His proportions are all messed up.

I go home and see my beautiful bs, all natural and untouched by vets chopping and clipping and it makes my heart happy!!!!

[noodle]

I have to admit 'designer dogs' are a real bug-bear with me :mad:. Are there not enough cross breeds/mongrels in rescue centres in need of a good home?? (After all, thats all they are - a cross breed). I have 2 adopted scruffies here.
I saw a puggle for the first time last week and I have to say, I wasn't at all impressed. I even met someone in a motorway service area a couple of months ago who had a poodle/spaniel cross (I think). The breeder had told them that they were a recognised breed in the US. Is this true? I doubt it! That was probably to try and justify the exorbedent fee they were charging. People are under the impression that they are healthier than pure-bred dogs - not true.
I should probably get off my soapbox now…..

[tanza]

There are many sporting dogs that have Poodle in their background… as a Poodle was used for hunting. But that doesn't make cross/mixes reconized breeds....

[Janneke]

I don't really see a problem in mixing breeds as long as you take responsibility for what you breed. You should make sure both parents are healthy and tested and you also know their background (problems further back in the pedigree). If you know enough people that would be interested in a puppy, why not? What's the differents with a pedigree dog then?

I wouldn't mind buying a mix from a responsible breeder if I didn't care about showing or would want a specific breed (problem is of course that most of these breeders aren't responsible ones)

[ComicDom1]

@Janneke:

I don't really see a problem in mixing breeds as long as you take responsibility for what you breed. You should make sure both parents are healthy and tested and you also know their background (problems further back in the pedigree). If you know enough people that would be interested in a puppy, why not? What's the differents with a pedigree dog then?

I wouldn't mind buying a mix from a responsible breeder if I didn't care about showing or would want a specific breed (problem is of course that most of these breeders aren't responsible ones)

The problem that arises out of mixing breeds is an age old one. Even if you take responsibility for what you breed, and both parents are health tested and you are aware of their background problems, there is always a possibility that new problems can crop up. Even experienced breeders do not always get it right.

Jason

[Janneke]

@ComicDom1:

The problem that arises out of mixing breeds is an age old one. Even if you take responsibility for what you breed, and both parents are health tested and you are aware of their background problems, there is always a possibility that new problems can crop up. Even experienced breeders do not always get it right.

Jason

What new problems? What could go more wrong with putting a Lab on a Poodle than a Lab on a Lab?
New problems crop up when you take 5 healthy dogs and then build a whole breed on only these dogs.

[Janneke]

And about the 'freak of nature' that Vickilb mentioned.. I saw a Bulldog today that died because.. well.. because he was a Bulldog: His lack of nose gave him a palatum molle that was too long.. He just couldn't breath and died.. He came all the way from Japan, because he was such a beautiful example of the breed..

[Vicki]

Interesting posts. A lot of people were/are convinced Rocky is a Basenji, but I'm think he is a RT with Basenji characteristics, if not a mix. He was purchased at a pet store for a ridiculous price and turned over to the humane society in MN. Both the director of adoptions and his foster family are still sure that Rocky is a Basenji. Rita Jean saw him and thought the same. Rocky does yodel, doesn't bark, is very quiet, but has energy that never stops.

Rocky has been the best addition to the pack for anti-social Bailey, as they are best buds and she is happy - that is a first, to have Bailey happy and not cranky all the time.

[tanza]

@Janneke:

What new problems? What could go more wrong with putting a Lab on a Poodle than a Lab on a Lab?
New problems crop up when you take 5 healthy dogs and then build a whole breed on only these dogs.

But the health concerns are known in Poodles and in Labs… to breed them you can get the worst of both... Poodles are well known for Epilepsy, not something that is in Labs.. Heart Diesase is will known in Labs, not in Poodles.. so in my opinion, you are rolling the dice and adding more health issues to what could happen breeding within the breed.

[Janneke]

@tanza:

But the health concerns are known in Poodles and in Labs… to breed them you can get the worst of both... Poodles are well known for Epilepsy, not something that is in Labs.. Heart Diesase is will known in Labs, not in Poodles.. so in my opinion, you are rolling the dice and adding more health issues to what could happen breeding within the breed.

Not if it are recessive traits.. And if your Poodle has Epilepsy, you don't use him for breeding at all.. Same with the Lab and heart disease..
Also: I'm not planning on breeding my Poodle to my Lab to start a new breed and breed their offspring.. I'm just breeding my Poodle to my Lab to get cute puppies that go to good homes to be a beloved family pet.. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[ComicDom1]

@Janneke:

What new problems? What could go more wrong with putting a Lab on a Poodle than a Lab on a Lab?
New problems crop up when you take 5 healthy dogs and then build a whole breed on only these dogs.

Having a narrow gene pool is not the only thing that can make problems with breeding. What can go more wrong, is problems of mismatched morphism, and randomly assorted skill sets. A bulldog crossed with a Malamute could be a disaster in the making. Bulldogs have short flat faces, Malamutes have lots of hair and long legs. If you breed these two, you will have a dog that can run and overheat in a heartbeat, because the air exchange through the muzzle (which is one of the cooling mechanisms for dogs) is insufficient for a long legged hairy dog. Of course this pairing sounds ridiculous to us, but what if the person breeding it was trying to get a more sturdy Bulldog, or a shorter Malamute? The point here is when you cross two breeds, you don't know what you are going to get. Randomly assorted skill sets apply too, if you cross a beagle with a whippet, you might get a dog who will follow it's nose with the speed of greased lightning, with no clue how to get home.

When you breed two dogs of the same breed, generations have shown what the dog will look like, and to some extent act like. Consistency of form and function is the whole point for responsible breeders. There is none of that for those breeding 'designer dogs.'

Miranda

[lvoss]

The argument that mixed breeds are healthier makes the assumption that the disorders are recessive and are not present in both breeds. This is often not the case. Diseases like PRA and HD are present in many breeds and are issues in mixed breeds, my aunt had a german shepherd/rottweiler mix that had severe hip and elbow dysplasia.

In the US, there is no reason to purposely breed mixed breeds to obtain "cute puppies". If someone wants a "cute" mixed breed puppy they should go to their local shelter or rescue and adopt a homeless animal. The reality is that people who are breeding designer mixes are not doing health testing and are "for profit" breeders hoping to cash in on the next fad dog.

[ComicDom1]

@Janneke:

Not if it are recessive traits.. And if your Poodle has Epilepsy, you don't use him for breeding at all.. Same with the Lab and heart disease..
Also: I'm not planning on breeding my Poodle to my Lab to start a new breed and breed their offspring.. I'm just breeding my Poodle to my Lab to get cute puppies that go to good homes to be a beloved family pet.. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Are we speculating at this point or are there specific tests for every possible genetic defect.

Secondly what if the puppies do not turn out to be cute and no one wants them.

Third, lots of puppy mills and back yard breeders get started all in the quest to make cute puppies. Aren't there enough cute puppies already in the shelter. Some are even called Mutts which is a term we used prior to designer dog.

I can assure you that the people who are out there selling designer dogs are not for the most part concerned with the genetics that their irresponsible breeding might pass on if their so called designer dog is ever bred.

The bottom line is this is all about money and irresponsibility and there is no doubt in my mind that this is ok in any way, shape, or form.

Jason and Miranda

[Janneke]

@ComicDom1:

Having a narrow gene pool is not the only thing that can make problems with breeding. What can go more wrong, is problems of mismatched morphism, and randomly assorted skill sets. A bulldog crossed with a Malamute could be a disaster in the making. Bulldogs have short flat faces, Malamutes have lots of hair and long legs. If you breed these two, you will have a dog that can run and overheat in a heartbeat, because the air exchange through the muzzle (which is one of the cooling mechanisms for dogs) is insufficient for a long legged hairy dog. Of course this pairing sounds ridiculous to us, but what if the person breeding it was trying to get a more sturdy Bulldog, or a shorter Malamute? The point here is when you cross two breeds, you don't know what you are going to get. Randomly assorted skill sets apply too, if you cross a beagle with a whippet, you might get a dog who will follow it's nose with the speed of greased lightning, with no clue how to get home.

When you breed two dogs of the same breed, generations have shown what the dog will look like, and to some extent act like. Consistency of form and function is the whole point for responsible breeders. There is none of that for those breeding 'designer dogs.'

Miranda

No.. breeding a Bulldog to a Malamute doesn't sound like a good plan But breeding an "Excellent" pedigree Bulldog doesn't sound like a great plan either… Their air exchange is already insufficient... And consistency of form and function means that you are loosing genetic diversity, which isn't all that great..

I understand that "designer dogs" are an hot item.. but I'm not a big 'producer' of dogs, I'm not breeding a 'tea cup' chi.. or a short nosed, long haired, short legged being.. And I'm not selling them in a pet shop either..

I'm just trying to breed a healthy litter of pups with my two very healthy, tested, pedigree dogs, with good characters... And I'm still not seeing a problem...

[Janneke]

@lvoss:

The argument that mixed breeds are healthier makes the assumption that the disorders are recessive and are not present in both breeds. This is often not the case. Diseases like PRA and HD are present in many breeds and are issues in mixed breeds, my aunt had a german shepherd/rottweiler mix that had severe hip and elbow dysplasia.

In the US, there is no reason to purposely breed mixed breeds to obtain "cute puppies". If someone wants a "cute" mixed breed puppy they should go to their local shelter or rescue and adopt a homeless animal. The reality is that people who are breeding designer mixes are not doing health testing and are "for profit" breeders hoping to cash in on the next fad dog.

I'm not saying mixed breeds are healthier.. I'm saying they aren't worse than our 'perfect' pedigree dogs… I know that a lot (most) of the people that breed mixes aren't testing etc.

I'm just saying that as a good breeder you want to put healthy puppies on this world, that hopefully grow up to become healthy adult dogs that bring a lot of joy to their families.. And those puppies don't need to be purebreds. Why not give those puppies pedigrees which say that mom was a Border Collie and dad a Whippet.. You can still see where the pups come from, who the parents are, what their health results are etc..

[Janneke]

@ComicDom1:

Are we speculating at this point or are there specific tests for every possible genetic defect.

Secondly what if the puppies do not turn out to be cute and no one wants them.

Third, lots of puppy mills and back yard breeders get started all in the quest to make cute puppies. Aren't there enough cute puppies already in the shelter. Some are even called Mutts which is a term we used prior to designer dog.

I can assure you that the people who are out there selling designer dogs are not for the most part concerned with the genetics that their irresponsible breeding might pass on if their so called designer dog is ever bred.

The bottom line is this is all about money and irresponsibility and there is no doubt in my mind that this is ok in any way, shape, or form.

Jason and Miranda

Of course you're always 'speculating' if a dog is wearing a recessive trait if there aren't genetic tests.. even if you're breeding that Poodle to another Poodle.. You research the pedigree to find out more about how much that trait comes back in the lines. But you can also do that for both your Lab and your Poodle.

Secondly: all puppies are cute

Third: I don't care if you call it a Mutt. I'm not a backyard breeder. I'm a responsible breeder. I'm not trying to breed cute puppies. I'm trying to breed happy healthy puppies with good characters that can become nice pets, or good sport dogs.

I know that a lot of the 'mutt/desiger dogs' breeders are doing it for money etc etc. I'm just saying that it's not all bad. If you breed two dogs of different breeds with exactly the same care as two dogs of the same breed.. I don't see a problem there. And we are all responsible for the dogs in the shelters. But I'll rather get my Mutt from a responsible Mutt breeder than from a shelter.. Just as some people rather get their B from a responsible breeder than from BRAT.

[lvoss]

The reason distinct breeds were developed in the first place was because people wanted predictable traits. Jason and Miranda are correct when they say that when you mix two breeds you have no way of telling what mix of traits you are going to get.

[snorky998]

@Janneke:

And about the 'freak of nature' that Vickilb mentioned.. I saw a Bulldog today that died because.. well.. because he was a Bulldog: His lack of nose gave him a palatum molle that was too long.. He just couldn't breath and died.. He came all the way from Japan, because he was such a beautiful example of the breed..

I agree Janneke, the original standards of many of the Mastiff breeds have been altered to please owners and ring judges. Look at some of the older pics of Bulldog champions, and compare them with what wins in the ring today. They look totally different.

Some breeders bred a better dog, others, a "prettier" or "showier" dog, not necessarily a healthier dog. The tastes of the 'consumer' are most certainly influenced by what they see on TV with all the televised dog shows. They want a bullie with the most snubbed nose possible, or a GSD with the lowest back hips. They continue to breed because people continue to buy. In some cases, they continue to breed, not because it's whats best for the breed, but what's currently in vogue in the show ring.

When it comes to designer dogs, they are bred here in the US to sell to the consumer with little regard to what's best for the breeds involved and with little or no testing at all in regards to health issues.

They're like the soup of the day here. If you have the ingredients, throw them together and sell to the highest bidder. When your palate changes, get rid of the old ingredients and concoct a new soup.

[Janneke]

@lvoss:

The reason distinct breeds were developed in the first place was because people wanted predictable traits. Jason and Miranda are correct when they say that when you mix two breeds you have no way of telling what mix of traits you are going to get.

I don't really see a problem here. I think I can have some idea what character a Poodle x Lab will get.. It won't be something uncontrollable for an owner.. (well.. not more than a B is ;))

[Janneke]

@snorky998:

Some breeders bred a better dog, others, a "prettier" or "showier" dog, not necessarily a healthier dog. The tastes of the 'consumer' are most certainly influenced by what they see on TV with all the televised dog shows. They want a bullie with the most snubbed nose possible, or a GSD with the lowest back hips. They continue to breed because people continue to buy. In some cases, they continue to breed, not because it's whats best for the breed, but what's currently in vogue in the show ring.

Talking about "Designer Dogs"…...