Basenji Color Question
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  • Basenji Mix

    I am a bit confused, because I am not a breeder, but . . . When you breed, do you normally breed for color? I mean, if you have a red/white female, do you breed her with a red/white male for the intent on having an all red/white litter? If you do, is it possible to have a black/white pup? I noticed that IVOSS's pups were both black/white and red/white pups while mom is black/white. Could a brindle or a tri evolve? You never know what you're going to get? :confused:

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  • Black is a dominant color, it takes a black parent to get a black puppy. Brindle is also dominant but can be hidden by black since you can not see black stripes on a black dog. The other gene that can be inherited at the same location is for not black nor brindle. At a separate location the genes for red and tri are inherited, Red is dominant to tri, tri is recessive.

    I have bred Rally twice. The first litter was with a tri sire, we were not sure if she carried tri since we know her sire did but her dam did not. We got 1 black and 3 reds. This litter Rally was bred to a brindle pointed tri and we got 2 blacks and 1 red. We could have also gotten brindle and the blacks may carry brindle but there is no way to see the stripes on the black. All of Rally's puppies carry the gene for tri from their sires and if bred to another dog that carries the tri gene they could produce tris.

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  • Color inheritance in Basenjis is not very complicated. Tricolor is a recessive meaning both parents must carry the gene but neither actually has to actually be tri to produce it. Below are some of the most common colors and what can possibly be produced. Pure-for means the animal does not carry the tri gene while tri-factored means it does. Brindle is black stripes on a red animal so any brindle can produce red but not vice-versa.

    pure-for-red x pure-for-red = only pure-for-red
    pure-for-red x tri-factored red = pure-for-red and tri-factored red
    tri-factored red x tri-factored red = pure-for-red, tri-factored red, and tris
    tri x tri = tri only
    pure-for-black x pure-for-red = pure-for-black and pure-for-red
    pure-for-black x tri-factored red = black and red
    pure-for-black x pure-for brindle = black, brindle, and red
    tri-factored black x tri-factored brindle = black, tri, red, brindle, trindle
    tri-factored black x tri factored red = black, red, and tri
    tri-factored black x tri = black, tris, and suprisingly reds
    pure-for-red x pure-for-brindle = red and brindle
    tri-factored red x tri factored brindle = red, brindle, tri, trindle
    tri x trindle = tri, red, brindle, trindle
    tri-factored red x trindle = tri, red, brindle, trindle
    pure-for-black x trindle = black, red, brindle
    tri-factored black x trindle = black, brindle, red, tri, trindle

    It starts to get complicated when you add in "fula" aka recessive black, saddles, sables, and dilutes. It is also possible for a dog to phenotypically look black but genetically be able to produce brindles.

    Ok I hope I got that right. Its late and my cold medicine is wearing off hehe.

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  • Actually it is more complicated than the chart you provided. Every dog has two genes at the location for black, brindle, or neither and two genes at the location for red, tri. There are also other genes like for saddle, dilutes, capped tris but they are not commonly seen. Dogs that are homozygous at a location have two copies of the same gene, dogs that are heterozygous have two different genes at that location. The possible genotypes and their corresponding phenotypes are as follows
    K = black K^br = brindle k = neither black nor brindle
    a^y = red a^t = tri

    KK a^ya^y - black
    KK a^ya^t - black
    KK a^ta^t - black
    Kk a^ya^y - black
    Kk a^ya^t - black
    Kk a^ta^t - black
    KK^br a^ya^y - black
    KK^br a^ya^t - black
    KK^br a^ta^t- black
    K^brK^br a^ya^y - brindle
    K^brK^br a^ya^t - brindle
    K^brK^br a^ta^t - brindle pointed tri
    K^brk a^ya^y - brindle
    K^brk a^ya^t - brindle
    K^brka^ta^t- brindle pointed tri
    kka^ya^y - red
    kka^ya^t - red
    kka^ta^t - tri

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  • I believe my girl's genotype is Kka^ya^y and I know the sire of this litter is K^brka^ta^t so my red boy has is a tri factored red kka^ya^t, the blacks could be either KK^bra^ya^t or Kka^ya^t

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  • This is overwhelming to me…. I couldnt even keep up =((

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  • Understanding color can be a bit confusing and to really understand it requires some basic mendelian genetics. For most the table that Robyn sent works okay but a dog that is "pure for black" is would only be able to produce black. Most black basenjis are heterozygous for the trait, I do not know too many breeders that breed black to black which is what it would take to produce a "pure for black" dog. Also a "pure for brindle" would be a homozygous brindle and could only produce brindle or trindles because they have to pass on a gene for brindle. There are probably more dogs out there that are homozygous brindle than there are homozygous blacks.

    As for do breeders breed for color, I think the answer is sometimes. Some breeders prefer certain colors and some do not like other colors and so will chose dogs to avoid the colors they do not want and increase the odds of what they do want. For me, my top priorities were health, temperament, conformation and really color of the sire wasn't that important to me though I was hoping for a black female, Rally was responsible for passing on that trait.

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  • I started to write a post last night…but realized I was way too tired to even attempt ;) As you can see, there isn't really a simple answer. But I will try to sum up.

    To have a tri puppy, you need to have either two tri parents (or a trindle - tri-brindle), or two parents who carry the recessive tri...could be any color, but the gene not expressed is a tri (meaning somewhere in their ancestry there was a tricolor)

    To have a red puppy, pretty much any combination of basenjis (EXCEPT tri x tri) can make red puppies; though it is really rare to have reds from black x black breeding

    To have a brindle puppy, you have to have a brindle parent; this could include trindle, or black/brindle (where the dog would LOOK black because you couldn't see the stripes, but would actually carry the brindle gene)

    To have a black puppy, you have to have a black parent

    So, to make it interesting, you could have a four color litter of pups with these parents: Tri-factored red (looks RED, carries tri gene) x Tri factored black brindle (looks BLACK, actually has "invisible" stripes, and carries tri gene)

    I think...;) There are other combinations where you could get a four color litter as well, but this is the first one I thought of.

    Does that help at all? ;) It is confusing and likely to get more confusing as breeders are becoming more interested and tolerant of a whole host of other colors and patterns in which basenjis are found in Africa.

    Many people don't realize there were originally creme colored basenjis, and fawn, and blue? Over the years, breeders have bred specifically for the three (now four) accepted colors, so the other colors were lost for the most part. I think the discussion of color is fascinating. With the African imports in the llate eighties, and now in the last few years, we are now really able to explore more about the natural coloration in Basenjis.

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  • <_>

    It would still have to be generations of black to black to even guess that they were pure for black, right? Same with brindle? Is the belief still that black and brindle are on/off…I mean the recessive to brindle, is no brindle? Does that make sense?_

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  • Lisa is correct. I should not have used the term "pure-for" in reference to blacks and brindles. I was just trying to keep things as simple as possible so the chart would be followable by most people.

    Below is the same chart corrected with more appropriate terminology.

    pure-for-red x pure-for-red = only pure-for-red
    pure-for-red x tri-factored red = pure-for-red and tri-factored red
    tri-factored red x tri-factored red = pure-for-red, tri-factored red, and tris
    tri x tri = tri only
    black (non tri carrier) x pure-for-red = pure-for-black and pure-for-red
    black (non tri carrier) x tri-factored red = black and red
    black (non tri carrier)x brindle (non tri carrier)= black, brindle, and red
    tri-factored black x tri-factored brindle = black, tri, red, brindle, trindle
    tri-factored black x tri factored red = black, red, and tri
    tri-factored black x tri = black, tris, and suprisingly reds
    red (non tri carrier) x brindle (non tri carrier)= red and brindle
    tri-factored red x tri factored brindle = red, brindle, tri, trindle
    tri x trindle = tri, red, brindle, trindle
    tri-factored red x trindle = tri, red, brindle, trindle
    black (non tri carrier) x trindle = black, red, brindle
    tri-factored black x trindle = black, brindle, red, tri, trindle

    and add
    brindle (non tri carrier) x brindle (non tri carrier) = brindle and red
    brindle (non tri carrier) x tri = brindle and red
    tri-factored brindle x tri-factored brindle = red, brindle, tri, trindle

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  • Basenji Mix

    Wow - Glad you know how it works. So there are formulas for color breeding. Thanks for sharing all this info - very interesting, especially for you breeders. I had no idea.

    For me, my top priorities were health, temperament, conformation and really color of the sire wasn't that important to me though I was hoping for a black female, Rally was responsible for passing on that trait.

    I like the idea of breeding for health & temperment. For me, all Basenji coat colors are beautiful. A healthy, playful Basenji is what I would find most important too.

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  • @Quercus:

    <_>

    It would still have to be generations of black to black to even guess that they were pure for black, right? Same with brindle? Is the belief still that black and brindle are on/off…I mean the recessive to brindle, is no brindle? Does that make sense?_

    _
    Not really, 25% of puppies in a black to black breeding should statistically be homozygous for the trait. You wouldn't really know until you bred them and only produced blacks that they were or weren't though.

    Actually, although I don't know if it has been published, it is my understanding that the genes for black, brindle, not black nor brindle have been found. There are 3 possible genes for the location either Black, Brindle, or Neither with Neither being the recessive trait._

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  • @Quercus:

    So, to make it interesting, you could have a four color litter of pups with these parents: Tri-factored red (looks RED, carries tri gene) x Tri factored black brindle (looks BLACK, actually has "invisible" stripes, and carries tri gene)

    Dogs that are Black carrying brindle can only produce Blacks, Brindles, and Trindles. So in your example above, only a 3 colored litter is possible because black and brindle are at the same location.

    If Rally had been tri factored, I could have had a 5 color litter with the combination that I had. Black, Brindle, Red, Tri, and Trindle.

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  • G

    @Quercus:

    Many people don't realize there were originally creme colored basenjis, and fawn, and blue? Over the years, breeders have bred specifically for the three (now four) accepted colors, so the other colors were lost for the most part. I think the discussion of color is fascinating. With the African imports in the llate eighties, and now in the last few years, we are now really able to explore more about the natural coloration in Basenjis.

    Wow, now this sounds really neat. I would love to see pictures of these other colored basenjis specially one in blue.

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  • Does somebody know something more about recessive black?
    http://www.basenji.org/african/gont6812.htm

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  • We do not have what geneticists consider true "recessive black". We do have modifiers that minimize the amount of tan on tris to produce dogs that are nearly all black. Most of these dogs have some tan bleeding as they age.

    http://www.kanibaru.com/2002pups.html

    Here is a website with pics of one as a puppy and then at 1 year where you can see a little tan bleeding behind the ear, under the arms, and at her tuck up.

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  • Is any body else hearing Charlie Brown's teacher right now?
    LOL.

    Man! How do you keep it all straight?

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  • @JazzysMom:

    Is any body else hearing Charlie Brown's teacher right now?
    LOL.

    Man! How do you keep it all straight?

    ROFL! I actually hear Charlie Brown's teacher when people start talking about alelles and such for genetics myself. I just have a learning issue where all that is concerned. As long as I understand the basics of color inheritance, that's all I care about. ;)

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  • For those who might want a refresher course on basic genetics here is a link to the powerpoint notes that I give my high school Biology students. To make it basenji related, I do use basenjis as an example.

    http://www.phs.wjusd.org/voss/Genetics%202007.ppt#256,1,Genetics

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  • I just told my wife yesterday, "lvoss always has a very good explanation on color/genetics, she must have a biology degree or something." lol, looks like that was right on target:D Thanks for the powerpoint

    @lvoss:

    For those who might want a refresher course on basic genetics here is a link to the powerpoint notes that I give my high school Biology students. To make it basenji related, I do use basenjis as an example.

    http://www.phs.wjusd.org/voss/Genetics%202007.ppt#256,1,Genetics

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