@jerome_inya_home - Welcome back Jerome!
How can I save cost? (Rescued Pups)
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Can I ask this of you….
What about the dogs and bitches that you have right now is of importance to the breed? Meaning what do they have to offer the breed that needs to be kept in the bloodlines. This is a vital question to be able to answer.
IMHO any breeder that is a responsible breeder should NEVER breed just to get a litter out. There has to be good reason for the breeding, and that good reason can only come from a focus on the dogs, not on yourselfs or on pocketbooks. I have to admit that it scares me a little to hear you even asking about cutting costs. That (to myself) is a red flag when dealing with breeders, and would at least disuade me from looking into your kennel much further (Just something to keep in mind).
Also a Second question, can you objectivly tell us what some of the drawbacks to any of your pups being bred is. Again IMO a good responsible breeder can not only give the positive points of a pedigree, but can also objectivly describe any concerns in the bloodline.
I ask you these things so that you can consider what kind of breeder you want to be.
Breeding just because you love your dogs and love puppies = Red Flag
Breeding to enhance the bloodlines and maintain the important traits and behaviors of a breed = I would look further into your kennel
You will find people who are willing to buy puppies from you no matter what kind of breeder you are, BUT....Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should.
Just some food for thought.
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Nitro is his family name. We purchased him with "all" the testing done and a lifetime guarantee. We plan to offer the same and do followups to ensure their quality of life.
Agreed that testing takes money, that is why we want to cut cost in other areas where possible. (even small amounts like wormers and shots)
We are simply wanting to make connections with other Basenji breeders and get best practices.
I can tell you passion for the breed with all the questions. Thanks for your input.Is he listed in the OFA data base? for DNA Fanconi testing? What "all" testing is done? Does that mean his parents were tested for Fanconi, hips, elbows, eyes, thyroid, to name a few and we can find (or potential buyers) can find that on the OFA website? Is he AKC registered? Or one of the "pretend" registrations that were started by PuppyMills and Pure for Profit BYB breeders.
Have you asked the question, what does this dog (and bitch) have to offer the breed? Are they of sound pedigree, temperament, health? If the bitches came from a puppymill, then there is no way you would have that information especially about temperament. Do you have a waiting list for puppy buyers? Have you screened them? Will your contract require spay/neuter so that someone else doesn't just "breed" because they can and might make money selling puppies?
I would also have to remark, if you need to think about cutting corners and/or costs, then you should not be breeding….
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In the process we are planning to breed a couple of them (after testing) to help fund their advancements.
I am looking for ideas on how to save on vet cost.While I highly commend you for saving the dogs from a kill shelter, having puppies is going to put you further in the hole, not recoup your expenses. Assuming you wish to become a responsible breeder and not just "make puppies", the health testing (hips, eyes, thyroid, fanconi, and brucellosis) for each animal you will be breeding will be several hundred dollars each. Assuming you choose to breed one male to two females, you are looking at $1,500 or more before they are bred. Assuming there are no complications during pregnancy and delivery, you will have the further expenses of dewclaw removal, vaccinations, worming, physical exams by the vet, food, advertising, cost of registering pups, and something most people never think of, paper towels, mops, disinfectant, etc for cleaning up after the "poop machines". Expenses add up fast and with the economy as it is now, be prepared to keep pups for several months because they just have not been selling well.
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Thank you Yodeldog for you comment.. others on here have not been so graceful nor supportive. I get the impression that they don't want others creeping in on their sales. = Red flag for me. I found that Basenji breeders (in general) tend to be a little clickish and bad mouth each other. Especially when it comes to incorporating African blood lines. (which again you don’t know what they have to offer the breed either.. so you guys can fight among yourselves with that one) I've had many phone conversations with Basenji breeders. For the record: Just because I use a generic "all" does not mean that I am not aware of what testing need to be done and when. (to me that is just the basics and common sense of a responsible person) Plus I did not want to be miss quote and have it used against me.. It feels like I’ve entered the race for Pres of the US.
Also, maybe it was a poor choice of words to state I was trying to find cost savings. I simply wanted to know what others use and find effective. (aka doing their own injections)
While some temperaments could be signs of hereditary issues, I feel that most of the time it has to do with poor socialization and ownership. (oh wait.. am I talking about the breed or those leaving comments) Just because you breed bitches.. you don’t have to be one.
It is unfortunate that many people are to focused on being righteous with asking what can you bring for the breed. I feel this is personally subjective and there are basic characteristics listed with AKC. (ie color, markings, build to name a few.. note: I know the list goes on) I only wish those humans breeding would have asked their selves the same question before producing. Maybe we would have more positive people in the world who are out to help others.
I had really hoped to find a supportive group to help advise of issues and make recommendation. Not to be attacked by.
I have requested for my membership on this to be terminated and my posting removed.
At this point we are still considering breeding, depending on the completion of our nursery area. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. A new person comes in for advise and gets the 3rd degree. If you want to know information there are better ways to ask than attacking. Next time try asking… if someone knows about “all” the test and when needed or saying .. yes basenji's are a wonderful breed, why have you chosen them. This is why I am not supplying any additional information. I will not be responding any further to your comments. I was a member for one day ….. that should tell you something about how you welcome new members.Good luck and Goodbye
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I am sorry to hear that you feel attacked here.
For the record I am not now nor have I ever been a breeder ( I simply do not have the time/finances/knowhow to be a good one).
Please keep in mind that it can be very dificult to read emotion into a post online. The questions that you are being asked by people here are not meant to demean you or state that you are not capable of being a responsible breeder. I think that everyone is just trying to get a feel for what exactly you want out of the breed.
People on this site are very passionate about the breed and simply want what's best for Basenjis as a whole. If you are interested in breeding to help this breed you will find a huge amount of information on this site, as well as a tremendous amount of knowledge from people who are, and have been breeding in order to truly maintain these dogs and heal some of the genetic wounds of the past.
Everything that I have said in this and my previous post to you only comes from my own opinions, and should be taken as such. We all vary in how we view our world, and sometimes that can cause friction. Hopefully you will choose to stay on the forums and use the knowledge presented here to become the best breeder you can.
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May I just remind everyone that the purpose of this forum is to provide a place for Basenji owners to make connections, exchange information, assist and encourage one another. It is above all a friendly environment for online discussion.
Webedoggies joined our forum expecting to find information and advice on breeding basenjis and what this user found is very passionate individuals sharing their experiences and advice about this wonderful breed.
We are not a breeding forum, and probably not the best place to seek this type of advice.
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IMO the reaction to new folks introducing themselves is often a bit strident here. There's a tendency I find unfortunate, of plunging immediately into an interrogation on where the dog came from, whether testing has been done, etc, even before folks get their feet wet (oh, wait, basenjis hate wet feet!). In the case of a neutered or spayed pet, I frequently feel it's unnecessarily challenging to newcomers looking for support.
That being said, this OP jumped in with budget breeding questions for apparently unsocialized, likely undocumented basenjis. I'm a rescue fan, but not for the this apparent "out of the frying pan…" motive.
I think the response took a more civilized tone than it might have. -
If I can put my two cents in here … members on this forum come from a wide variety of backgrounds from just plain "dog lovers" to serious breeders. For a first time visitor, some responses can seem a bit "clickish", "bitchy", "righteous". I truly believe nearly everyone here (if not all) is concerned for the breed and concerned for dogs in geneeral and have seen or read what happens to dogs that are bred strictly for monetary purposes (aka puppy mills). As a result some folks here are quite strident about trying to be responsible breeders and owners. Written discussions never provide the facial expressions that help alert the reader to the true intentions of the speaker that the words alone don't convey and sometimes words aren't chosen carefully enough. I hope Webedoggies might consider rejoining the forum with this in mind and that all visitors would "hang around longer" to see our true intentions and concerns about the breed (just look at our gallery and you'll see that we truly love our dogs).
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IMO the reaction to new folks introducing themselves is often a bit strident here. There's a tendency I find unfortunate, of plunging immediately into an interrogation on where the dog came from, whether testing has been done, etc, even before folks get their feet wet (oh, wait, basenjis hate wet feet!). In the case of a neutered or spayed pet, I frequently feel it's unnecessarily challenging to newcomers looking for support.
A very good post and I fully agree with you.
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Thank you Yodeldog for you comment.. others on here have not been so graceful nor supportive.
For the record, I was not being supportive to the breeding of the dogs in question but rather being honest about the expenses involved in rearing a litter of puppies.
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You know I have to say…. I appreciate the hardline approach that is offered on the forums. My skin starts to crawl when I see a people sloppily post for breeding advice, when it's obvious that they have not invested much of themselves to the endeavor they are about to commit to. To be sure, they haven't studied in depth the various health issues of the Basenji, or the complicated genetic matters that go into producing puppies worthy of carrying on the breed standard. From my standpoint, one shouldn't ever ask "how can I frugally pop out a litter"...if that is the financial situation, then they have no business breeding whatsoever. If the desire is there to produce the pups then so the wallet should be too. So I say burn baby burn, if that's what is necessary for people to get the point. My first Basenji was bred by people who just wanted to breed a litter for some extra cash. I have seen their ignorance soil the life of my dog, who can not under any circumstances come into contact with other dogs because she attacks them, who bites people out of fear when they come to pet her for the first time. The countless hours and dollars we poured into her as a puppy to socialize her and strengthen her self confidence with people. The numerous times we wondered if it was more humane to put her down. Thankfully, over time we worked out a system, in which our whole family was able to co-exist. Now she is 15, and very much the leisurely couch potato - with a few good runs at the cats that cross my parent's yard. I love my dog - but she is the inbred product of a litter that should have never been whelped. I was only 9 when this all happened, but if my parents had the forum to be better informed, they would have used the knowledge.
I think we are so fortunate to have been touched by the Basenji, not many people feel the same joy at seeing their toliet paper shredded on their floor - or the elation of having your B come when called (yeah!!) I love my 2 girls very much, though they live on opposites sides of the globe.
And I'm so so grateful to the breeders who commit themselves to the rigorous and perhaps unsung task of preserving a breed that has enriched a select few for thousands of years. We should be here to make the Basenji stronger (and YES to opening African studbooks for a broader genetic base!) we should be supportive of people who want ensure that the puppies received by new owners are as amazing and slightly crazy (hehe) as the dogs we love and cherish. If that requires a stronger offense then I back it wholeheartedly. -
Asking where someone got their dog is not "interrogating", it isn't hostile, or in any way nefarious. Most people on this list ask because they are genuinely curious. The basenji community is relatively small and many of us on this forum have found that we have basenji "family" here. How do we know, because we ASKED.
It is true if the response is that their dog was from a BYB, petstore, or a rescue that often the next statement is a plug for the Fanconi test. Again, this advice isn't done out of hostility, it is done out of genuine concern.
I went through the posts at the beginning of this thread, several of the posts were mine, which even re-reading I do not think were out of line and what did I get for my statements, I basically got called a bitch. Luckily, I don't take too much offense because I am in good company both in looking at the other humans who got grouped with me and that in my fairly biased opinion I am living with 4 very nice examples of bitches who actually are quite sweet though not unwilling to honestly express their opinions.
I think that many people who respond the way this poster did, do so because they are looking for someone to validate what they are about to do. They are then angry when they do not get the response they expected. That does not mean that the responses that were given were out of line, hostile, or even unwelcoming.
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I agree with lvoss, of course I am one that typically gets called out for being a "bitch"…. and that is just because people don't want to be challenged and want someone/everyone to validate what they are going to do. They don't want to hear that their pup came from a pure for profit breeder that does no health testing when we bring up the DNA Fanconi test that should/needs to be done, but as lvoss says it is out of concern. If anyone on this forum thinks that we are trying to plug to sell our own pups, there is nothing further from the truth. We care about the breed, breeding healthly, good temperament pups, that are socialized and make excellent family companions that can also hold their own in the show ring and/or on the performance arena......
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Asking where someone got their dog is not "interrogating", it isn't hostile, or in any way nefarious.
Sorry, but it does come across that way in some instances - maybe because it's so quick. At a dinner party, you don't start the conversation by asking who a new acquaintance's parents are, before you ask about them and their spouse, job and home - or maybe you do. But that wouldn't likely encourage candor.
It is true if the response is that their dog was from a BYB, petstore, or a rescue that often the next statement is a plug for the Fanconi test. Again, this advice isn't done out of hostility, it is done out of genuine concern.
But at that point if they do not intend to breed what diference does it make? Sadly, the new pup may be likely to eventually have Fanconi. If it's a BYB or a rescue, what can they do about it at that point? There's no one to give it back to - even if they haven't already fallen in love and don't want to give up their baby. Yeah, at some point, it's probably a good idea to know what's coming. But when you're in the first stage of doggie-love, knowing that maybe they'll die at some point…it's kind of a buzz kill. And you can't change it, so why create that anxiety right now?
Just to be clear, my comments don't relate so much to this post. This OP was talking about breeding, and at that point IMO all bets are off and the expert breeders should jump in. I don't find anything bitchy about that. But I'm not sure I understand insisting that a new owner of a pet B that may be discovered to be a Fanconi risk needs to know that on their first day here. Let them enjoy the glow before they face the risks of losing their sweet pup from health issues that were determined long before they came into the picture.
I admire and respect the breeders on this forum - I'm just voicing my opinion that in cases unlike this one - where they asked about breeding - we might want to let folks settle in and enjoy some basenji love before we hit them with all the risks they may have unknowingly bought into.
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Thank you everyone for your posts.
Let's all try to make this forum above all a friendly and welcoming community where people can enjoy exchanging information about their Basenjis.
Health issues and breeding topics are very prominent here and have it's own categories for discussion. To get new members familiar with these topics we will include links to most important health/breeding topics and stickies in our welcome email and thread.
Some member expressed to us that for one reason or the other they are not comfortable revealing details about themselves and their dogs to complete strangers on an internet forum as soon as they make a first post. They need some time to get familiar with everyone.
We respect that and ask everyone to respect that as well.
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Although I understand how it can be uncomfortable to give out information about your dog to complete strangers online, it's not just something that happens on the internet. Every time I have taken Piper to field trials or other places with basenji owners and breeders I didn't know, one of the first questions they asked me was who bred her.
But since I am one of the people who finds it interesting to know where other people got their basenjis, and how they are related to Piper or others I know, it doesn't bother me at all. I love talking about my breeder and about different bloodlines, but I realize not everyone does.
So IMO I don't think this is just something people on this forum do, I think it is something that a lot of dog people in general do when meeting new people, especially in a breed as small as basenjis. At least that has been my personal experience.
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But at that point if they do not intend to breed what diference does it make? Sadly, the new pup may be likely to eventually have Fanconi. If it's a BYB or a rescue, what can they do about it at that point? There's no one to give it back to - even if they haven't already fallen in love and don't want to give up their baby. Yeah, at some point, it's probably a good idea to know what's coming. But when you're in the first stage of doggie-love, knowing that maybe they'll die at some point…it's kind of a buzz kill. And you can't change it, so why create that anxiety right now?
You can't change it, but you do increase the odds that your dog will have less kidney damage and a better quality of life if you are informed. You do the test, not because you are going to give up your dog, that is the attitude that is keeping BRAT from testing and allowing people an informed decision, you do the test so you know because that knowledge can make world of difference for your dog.
Maybe my attitude is so different about health issues because I volunteer at my shelter, I have done dog evaluations for BRAT, and I have friends who have left the veterinary profession because they just couldn't deal emotionally with the results of putting off today because it would have been a buzz kill. The results of that attitude can be truly devastating. I placed a dog who had a reduced lifespan because the owners wouldn't admit that the dog had Fanconi and then wanted to give her up because she had chronic bladder infections as was peeing everywhere. My shelter had to put to sleep over 100 dogs in the month of May and close for 3 weeks because of distemper outbreak because owners in my county don't vaccinate.
The thing with the Fanconi Marker Test, is that it isn't a buzz kill, doing the test means you can relieve much of the monthly anxiety when you do urine testing. Obviously, if the dog has tested Probably Affected, there will always be breath holding, is this the time they test positive? But even then at least the owners have had time to become well acquainted with what will need to be done, will have had time to find out where the resources they are going to need are, instead of the frantic, panic that occurs when it hits unexpectedly.
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Sorry, but it does come across that way in some instances - maybe because it's so quick. At a dinner party, you don't start the conversation by asking who a new acquaintance's parents are, before you ask about them and their spouse, job and home - or maybe you do. But that wouldn't likely encourage candor.
Every dog park I have ever been to where I have run into a basenji owner, the first question they ask is "Where did you get your dog?" I don't take it as rude when asked then and I don't really see why it is rude here. To me it is very similar to being at a huge family gathering, my grandfather hosted many, and at them most exchanges would start with, "Oh, are you Henry's granddaughter?" or "You're George's kid, right?"
In many ways coming here is a lot like going to a big family party.
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Exactly.. that is the first question that is asked… Where did you get your Basenji? Who is the Breeder? Who are the Sire and Dam?.... at a lure trial, dog show, training classes, internet chat lists.... all over...
And to the Forum Staff... life if not always a "bowl of cherries"... And I think it is unfair to try and restrict comments/questions to "be nice" and not to tell the truth and be able to ask about people's motives as we are dealing with a living, breath, animal....that can not speak for itself. As already said, people don't like to hear the truth... but remember that BYB/Pet Store puppy can't read and can't send its blood to have a DNA test done. That Puppy can't say "don't breed me, I come from unstable stock, unhealthy stock"..... You can include all the links to sticky's that you want.. and I would venture to bet that maybe 1/2 if that many would even go read them... as in many cases they have no idea that any of that would pertain to them or their Basenji.
And this just adds to the same "don't ask, don't tell" attitude of BRAT that will not do a DNA test on BRAT dogs before placing them.. so that they don't have to tell people that they have an affected dog. I wonder if they even tell them about the DNA Fanconi test?
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Pat, I think Sharron may be a better person than I to answer your questions about BRATs view on the DNA linkage test, but I did want to just get out there that part of the home visit protocol is to verify that adopters are aware of the potential for Fanconi. BRAT does also require that you aggree to strip test once a month. I have only done one home visit myself, but durring the visit did speak about the option of the linkage test to determine how vital the strip testing would be for an adopted dog.
I just want to thank the breeders, and owners on the forum for continuing to ask the tough questions. YES tough questions can make some people feel uncomfortable, but refusing to ask tough questions (regardless of the topic) leads to major problems. I believe it is important to be polite to people and make them feel welcome, but I also believe that hidding behind being compleatly PC just allows those with poor ideas to continue to blindly follow them without ever having to think about those ideas criticaly and descide the validity for themselves. You all are an amazing community of people who I continue to be blessed to be a part of.
