@senjisilly just now saw your reply. Thanks for the pedigree website. I knew about it and it’s a great resource.
Untitled
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I was definitely told to avoid that breeder. Good advice.
Does anyone else think some of B's on the website have huge ears? -
I really am starting to dislike this holier than thou responsible breeder representation that I keep seeing!
Jason
If by "holier than thou" means that a responisble breeder:
1. Does not breed without having DNA tests for Fanconi
2. OFA's hips and elbows for Dysplasia, patellas checked - before breeding
3. Has Board Certified Eye exams - before breeding (and these three are just at a minimum for testing and certainly others if there is any questions about possible health concerns in any siblings/offsping of the sire and dam)
4. Has Board Certified Eye exams before placing puppies
5. Has well socialized pups and doesn't breed dogs with poor temperaments and for that matter, poor conformation that will usually lead to health problems.
6. Places pups on a spay/neuter contract with limited registration, unless other arrangements are made in case there is interest in showing
7. Has a contract that states if the Basenji needs to be given up for any reason for its lifetime, it comes back to the breeder
8. Screens homes before placement
9. Typically has a waiting list for puppies before breeding
10. Has an active interest in at least the parent breed club and understands the health concerns in the breed
11. And has an idea of "what" the dogs they are considering breeding has to "offer" the Basenji Fancy, be it in the show ring, in a performance venue, or a loving family pet
And a host of others… then, well, yes.... that is how responsible breeders should and would want to be represented. -
Oh, wait Pat you missed one more test-the Brucellosis test. It's not a holier than thou responsible breeder representation, it's wanting to do what's best for the dog and for the people who will own the dog. Oh, and by the way, we are not in it for the money like BYB.
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If by "holier than thou" means that a responisble breeder:
1. Does not breed without having DNA tests for Fanconi
2. OFA's hips and elbows for Dysplasia, patellas checked - before breeding
3. Has Board Certified Eye exams - before breeding (and these three are just at a minimum for testing and certainly others if there is any questions about possible health concerns in any siblings/offsping of the sire and dam)
4. Has Board Certified Eye exams before placing puppies
5. Has well socialized pups and doesn't breed dogs with poor temperaments and for that matter, poor conformation that will usually lead to health problems.
6. Places pups on a spay/neuter contract with limited registration, unless other arrangements are made in case there is interest in showing
7. Has a contract that states if the Basenji needs to be given up for any reason for its lifetime, it comes back to the breeder
8. Screens homes before placement
9. Typically has a waiting list for puppies before breeding
10. Has an active interest in at least the parent breed club and understands the health concerns in the breed
11. And has an idea of "what" the dogs they are considering breeding has to "offer" the Basenji Fancy, be it in the show ring, in a performance venue, or a loving family pet
And a host of others… then, well, yes.... that is how responsible breeders should and would want to be represented.ALL good things to check on before purchasing your pup!
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As for testing 'pets', this helps the breeder determine if their breeding is successful for what they hope to achieve. That is, if they want all probable clear for Fanconi, they need to test the pets as well as the "champions". Same goes for OFA's of hips/patellas/elbows and any other afflictions pertaining to the breed in question. This does not necessarily go for just Basenji's. I certainly don't intend to charge $1000 for pups and most people I know of don't. However, if you look at bulldogs for instance they need to charge that amount and more to cover the costs. Bulldogs need AI and C-sections ALL the time. But also, you need to look at different circumstances. If you cannot afford $1000 you also need to look at what you can offer a pet-and often a rescue is more than worth it to a pet person. We certainly need pet people, as breeders. But we also need to look at where we are going with the breed as well. By checking on references, and taking chances with some people both sides can learn a lot (meaning breeders and pet people). Some people have very good intentions but cannot fulfill them-from either side. I know this is long and rambling, but I hope people are looking at both sides.
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Even though both of my B's were purchased as pets, I greatly appreciate the testing that Bryan and Laurie do/did on their dogs, so that I know exactly what I got with my dogs – or as exactly as is possible.
Makes perfect sense to me to test whether for pets, show, or breeding.
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Wouldn´t it be easier to have a breeders list that is set by the basenji club which you can´t get on to advertise your litter if you haven´t done all the tests that are regulated by the club and AKC.Ok I know you are a continent and not like our little country but arrange it state wise it would help newcomers so they could choose from accepted and vetted breeders.
But I do understand this couple a bit since they were welcomed with a torrent of questions instead of just saying hi welcome aboard and give them time to settle in and then ask questions if one felt it necessary to know all about them with a bit more subtle mannerism.Maybe i´m wrong but reading all the posts it felt that they were bulldozed/ given the third degree
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If you look at most of the welcome threads. There is usually a lot of welcomes and pretty quick the question, whose your pup's breeder? or where did you get your pup? comes up. These questions really aren't the "third degree", they are natural human curiosity. Many on this list have found that they are "related" and like to know those connections.
The question about "Were the parents tested?", comes up pretty quickly too since it is something that everyone needs to know about. Many on this list who have been in the breed for awhile, know people who have lost dogs to this disease. It is a subject they feel strongly about. It is also a health issue that all breeders can prevent by testing and making good breeding choices. We are not that lucky with other diseases where you have to do the testing, hope that other people will do testing so you can build vertical pedigrees and then at the end of the day make your best educated guess.
So though it may seem like it was a barrage, many other welcomes have included very similar questions and have not generated the hostility that occurred in this case.
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I totally agree with you, Ivoss, but like the post before yours, I do agree with them as well. I know that in writing it is hard to convey emotion, but I do think that some of us could work a little harder at how things are worded, and remember that not everyone is a basenji expert right off the bat.
For example, when we got our basenji we got her from a rescue organization, and I have to admit, I knew nothing about Fanconi, glucose strip testing, basenji breeders, etc. I did not even know much about how to care for dogs, as this was my first up-close experience with them.
I just went back into my earliest posts and I am happy with the fact that everyone welcomed me very nicely and was very reassuring and helpful when it came to answering my questions, some of which were pretty dumb…looking back its amazing to see how much I have learned about basenjis and how to care for them...seems I was rather careless in the beginning
Anyway, my point is, I came to love this forum because when I did ask a question that wasn't the brightest, instead of making me feel dumb and uneducated, people responded very kindly and made me feel more confident and comfortable with my situation. Only from reading more on this board, did I eventually come to learn about Fanconi and other health issues, and I must say, I am glad I was not bombarded with these things right away.
Being a first time dog owner, had someone gone right into throwing questions at me like are you glucose testing, did your dogs sire/dam get tested for Fanconi, etc. I would have been extremely overwhelmed and agitated, wondering what I had gotten myself into, and feeling like a horrible dog parent for not knowing these things.
I do feel like lately attitudes towards new people have changed, and while I do feel that some people may be a little over-defensive, I can see their point of view. I know sometimes in the past I have felt bad for people who ask an innocent question and get bombarded with all these things, and end up feeling bad...for example I remember recently reading someone who introduced themselves and later I saw them put something like "I was beginning to think I was doing everything wrong." (I tried to find the exact quote but could not find it in the search, I do know it was recent though).
Do I think anyone is doing this intentionally? Of course not.
I really, truly believe everyone's intentions are good, and I understand that some are very passionate about issues like Fanconi, breeding, etc. I think these people are very bright and I am glad they are kind enough to volunteer their time to help others and share their vast knowledge. However, I do hope that maybe this opens their eyes a little bit to how their tone comes off. I have been put off by things like that for quite awhile, and although I am not happy about the hostility that occured here, I am glad the issue got brought up. Obviously there are more people who feel this way, considering the message that was brought up by the moderators in the Forum Help section. I am not sure what the behind the scenes stuff is in this case, and I dont' know if its related to this thread or not, but I do think this comment sums it up perfectly:
"Members have expressed on numerous occasions that they feel as though they have to meet a certain standard in order to join our community."
I hope things get better. I am so happy to have found this forum, and the friendly, knowledgeable people who are on it, and I just hope new members can have the same positive experience that I have had when joining. -
I agree with you Ivoss completely but I also agree with Jylly 18 not everybody has a clue when they buy a pet or take on a rescue dog.I always felt welcomed on this forum but I do agree with Jylly that when you are newbie and just want to present yourself and almost immediately someone throws the question about Fanconi it´s a bit overwhelming.
Ok so i´m not american and our country is small and all breeders in the basenji club know each other or atleast know about each other.And a kennel can´t get their pup´s on the puppy list if they haven´t tested their dog´s according to the regulations.
And yes testing is of utmost importance I will test m boy in a few weeks and give blood to the CPP his parents are both clear but I still test him aswell as check his eye´s and hip´s including T4,TSH and TgAA as he´s to be a studdog.So yes Ivoss health is important.
But as Jylly said sometimes even when people don´t mean to they come out sounding a bit harsh over the internet.Maybe wiser to ask casually from which breeder and the names of it´s parents and if one then recognises these dog´s as untested one´s then tell the newbie that we have this disease called Fanconi and explain what it does and ask them to test their dog just to be on the safe side.This way you educate them and hopefully get them to test their dog without scaring them away or becoming hostile.
Just a thought -
Except that since there are many people reading and posting to this forum, sometimes simultaneously so they don't even know what someone else is writing, there will be times when it will look to a newcomer as they are being bombarded. It is really important that anyone who uses any forum of this type understand that multiple posts saying just about the same thing doesn't mean they are being ganged up on, it is a result of this type of communication.
Another aspect of Forums such as this, is that for some they may feel that they have waited an eternity for a response from someone where another person who logs on less frequently may think everything is flowing quite fast. So it is possible that some members think that they have "waited" before asking questions about health.
It is also important for all of us to remember that this is an international forum and that things are not the same in all places. Even being sensitive to all these things there are some people who will take anything you say, the wrong way.
I have had this happen to me when I have written responses to emails that I get that literally say just "How much are your puppies? When will you be able to ship me one?" They don't sign the email, have no information about where they are and they usually use phrases like "high and mighty" or "holier than thou" when I have sent a reply along the lines of "Thank you for your interest in basenjis. In order to help you locate a breeder in your area that may have puppies please let me know where you are located and what attracted you to the breed."
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I just stumbled on this post and you may have this already and I didn't see it. Would it be possible to make a sticky on how to buy from a responsible breeder, that includes all the health testing information? That way anyone could just refer the newcomer to that sticky or they could read it themself. That way they don't feel bombarded with questions they may not know anything about but can ask if they are interested.
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What a great suggestion!
I don't know what a sticky is, but I am sure some of these folks here do. -
I believe that the Forum owners were going to do that.. there is a link on the Basenji Club of America site on how to find a responsible breeder at www.basenji.org/learn then go to screening breeders. And there are a number of websites from responsible breeders….
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I believe that the Forum owners were going to do that.. there is a link on the Basenji Club of America site on how to find a responsible breeder at www.basenji.org/learn then go to screening breeders. And there are a number of websites from responsible breeders….
I realize there are other places to get the info but since this thread seemed to have people feeling they were being bombarded with questions about testing, breeders etc. when they first joined if we just said "please check the link on responsible breeding for testing issues…" Or something that would relieve anyone from being made to feel uncomfortable. Does that make sense?
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The list owners did something similar under the rescue and rehoming section of this forum.
It is the very first thing a new person (or person first visiting the site sees).
Possibly, they could do it here and it would help inform. -
Great Ideas! We will create a sticky series called "How To:" with some basic information and pointers. Members can add to them as needed.
The first one will be called "How To: Select a responsible breeder". It will go under "Breeder Talk" and and "For Sale" topics.
Thank you for all the great suggestions and feedback!
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Great Ideas! We will create a sticky series called "How To:" with some basic information and pointers. Members can add to them as needed.
The first one will be called "How To: Select a responsible breeder". It will go under "Breeder Talk" and and "For Sale" topics.
Thank you for all the great suggestions and feedback!
It would be good to have one under health also
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Perhaps under health it should be What Are: Basenji Health Concerns
