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This is a collection of discussions moved from other threads. Please use this thread for any future
discussions of backyard vs responsible breeding.

Basenji Forums Staff

The problem is that these poorly bred dogs, well, we fall in love with them.
Its not like a sweater you take back if you find a flaw. You fall in love and then your hooked.
Bad breeders take your money and often break your hard, when you lose a dog early.
Medical issues can happen to any one or critter, but good breeders stack the deck in favor of the longed lived dog.
Really, isn't that what we all want, a dog not to die at 6, but to live to 15 or longer??
Knowledge is power with health issues, be it human or canine.
Good breeders give you that info and bad ones let you throw the dice.

@etzbseder:

Just remember that although Phil is not the best parent of the dogs, he does raise good dogs, and they just need more TLC at the beginning than people who are always with the pups and socialize them often.

I am sorry but I have to disagree with this statement. At 16 weeks of age, the window for early socialization that a puppy needs in order to view changes in their surroundings and new people as OK is pretty much closed. With lots of work puppies that have been undersocialized during this period can become better but most will always have anxiety in new situations and meeting new people.

Most young dogs that are euthanized in shelters are euthanized because they were raised in exactly this way, with little or no socialization during the first 12-16 weeks of their lives. Many of these dogs suffer from fear and anxiety issues and to a degree that most people can not provide the care that the dog needs. These young dogs are then dumped in shelters and often fail their temperament tests because they are often resource gaurder, fear biters, and non-affliative with humans.

Doing this to a puppy is not breeding "good dogs". It is cruel.

My post was harsh but it is also the truth. Sharron is right that it is heart breaking to see these dogs that are absolutely terrified of things that most dogs find comforting. We see these dogs at the shelter. Some have managed to pass their temperament test and make it to the adoption floor. Of those some are lucky enough to find homes with people who are truly wonderful for finding the room in their home and heart for these dogs. Unfortunately, I have also seen the ones that we haven't been able to help and my heart is broken for those young dogs who never had a chance because they were not raised with the love and caring that every puppy deserves.

Not only do bad breeders not do right by the puppies, or the "owners" who buy them, but these bad breeders have the nerve to charge the same or more in pet shops, then the quality breeders who work their hearts out trying to make the breed better.
This is wrong on toast!

Sorry, you guys are just stealing the thread and hitting a nerve of mine. You all say often how bad bad breeders are and how bad pet stores are, but if you were so interested in helping all these dogs from rescues and shelters, AND helping the breed, you would not breed dogs simply as pets, to be sold with spay/neuter contracts, but you would breed only when you have breeding prospects predicted and help get more people to buy rescues and shelter puppies. It just bothers me that people breed to be sold as only PETS, and sell dogs for over a THOUSAND dollars, and then the owner has to pay for lots of shots, food, toys, testing, all sorts of things that a $1000 dog is a little much.

I don't know about "stealing the thread" but I can tell you I don't breed.
I only do rescue.

And while both posts and mine are "harsh" they speak the truth… period... responsible breeders condition their pups to be a part of the household.. they know what the TV is.. they know what cleaning the house is and can help...ggg much to our dismay....ggg.. (OK granted...99% of B's will attack the vaccuum...gggg I find it pretty amusing)... they love to have visitors... they are a part of the daily goings on.... and they have the help of the breeder when they hit the wall... they are assured of good health, but are made aware of the possible pit falls.. as until we have DNA for all health problems, responsible breeders test, test, test.... and breed to the best of their knowledge....

@etzbseder:

Sorry, you guys are just stealing the thread and hitting a nerve of mine. You all say often how bad bad breeders are and how bad pet stores are, but if you were so interested in helping all these dogs from rescues and shelters, AND helping the breed, you would not breed dogs simply as pets, to be sold with spay/neuter contracts, but you would breed only when you have breeding prospects predicted and help get more people to buy rescues and shelter puppies. It just bothers me that people breed to be sold as only PETS, and sell dogs for over a THOUSAND dollars, and then the owner has to pay for lots of shots, food, toys, testing, all sorts of things that a $1000 dog is a little much.

Excuse me???? This is what we are talking about….. remember breeders breed to improve the breed and keep the best for themselves... and while it is pretty obvious that we can't keep them all, the most important thing after that is the home they go to.... many, many people are just wanting a loving family companion.. and that is what we can provide... IMO, you are well out of line... as if I remember correctly.. you want to breed your boy?

That's fair, but the breeders that test their breeding dogs galore, are GREAT but they shouldn't try to make the buyers of spayed/neutered PETS test their dogs for EVERYTHING all the time. My parents are not testing their mutt for ANYTHING because it doesn't change anything in the way the love and treat their dog that they can't figure out on their own without spending thousands of dollars to just wait and see if there is anything slowly going wrong with hips/eyes/ and the like. Their last dog was from a BYB (i know hisssss) but it lived to be 16 and died of old age and cancer. both would have been unavoidable.

Yes, Tanza, I have toyed with the idea of breeding, but even if I were to do it, it would not be until I have tested a ton. And that is one of the reasons I am only still toying with the idea of breeding. I can always turn back until i have gotten a desired female, done lots of tests and let them if they want to. Which would be at least two years away, because the female (i've read) should be at LEAST two years old.

@etzbseder:

Sorry, you guys are just stealing the thread and hitting a nerve of mine. You all say often how bad bad breeders are and how bad pet stores are, but if you were so interested in helping all these dogs from rescues and shelters, AND helping the breed, you would not breed dogs simply as pets, to be sold with spay/neuter contracts, but you would breed only when you have breeding prospects predicted and help get more people to buy rescues and shelter puppies. It just bothers me that people breed to be sold as only PETS, and sell dogs for over a THOUSAND dollars, and then the owner has to pay for lots of shots, food, toys, testing, all sorts of things that a $1000 dog is a little much.

I guess you don't get it, that is exactly what we are saying. Responsible breeders breed for themselves to have the next generation to continue with. Every litter that is bred for this purpose also has puppies that will not be breeding prospects but make AWESOME pets because they get the benefit of the health testing, socialization, and the time that a responsible breeder puts into each litter.

You obviously don't know a thing about the people who you are accusing of breeding pets to sell for over a thousand dollars. Sharron is a rescue coordinator who has time and time again asked people to adopt a rescue, foster a rescue, consider a shelter dog. Go look at my posts, I have said time and again either take the time to do your homework and buy from a responsible breeder or if you don't want to do your homework adopt a rescue or shelter dog. Take a look at Pat's posts they are all the same theme. You are the one jumping to conclusions.

Not spay and neuter pets?
What are you saying, that "quality" breeders should sell their pet dogs to folks and let those people do whatever they want with the intact pet quality dogs???
So, any fool, who just wants a pet can put another pet with a dog and have a whole bunch of pets who might go to good home, or not??
Why if you want to see that kind of stupid, go down to any animal shelter and look at the puppies that are there.
Look at the dogs who have no homes and will be killed because there are too many of them.
Sigh
Quality breeders do right BY all their puppies, the show ones and the pet ones and they don't let their hard work fall into the hands of someone who thinks its wrong to spay a pet!

@etzbseder:

That's fair, but the breeders that test their breeding dogs galore, are GREAT but they shouldn't try to make the buyers of spayed/neutered PETS test their dogs for EVERYTHING all the time. My parents are not testing their mutt for ANYTHING because it doesn't change anything in the way the love and treat their dog that they can't figure out on their own without spending thousands of dollars to just wait and see if there is anything slowly going wrong with hips/eyes/ and the like. Their last dog was from a BYB (i know hisssss) but it lived to be 16 and died of old age and cancer. both would have been unavoidable.

Asking people to have their pets tested using a DNA test so they KNOW whether they need to monitor their dog on a frequent basis for symptoms of a disease that they have inherited from their parents is not aksing them to spend thousands of dollars. It is asking them to do the test so they are prepared and can hopefully catch the disease early so maybe it doesn't cause so much damage to their kidneys that they go downhill quickly and if they are Affected that may end up costing them thousands of dollars which could have been prevented if the breeder had done the right thing and tested prior to breeding.

Telling pet owners that their regular vet can perform a patella examination during a regular office visit and they can have those results registered with OFA for $15 if normal and for free if they are abnormal is not asking for thousand of dollars. But again having that test done will provide them with information that could help them to prevent putting stress on those joints and perhaps avoid having to do surgery later in life.

Recommending that pet owners who wish to compete in performance events have hips x-rayed to make sure the stress of the athletic competition willl not be a problem for the dog is still not asking for thousands of dollars, x-rays run about $75-$125 dollars and are I think $35 to submit to OFA. It is also helping to ensure that a dog does not actually do damage to itself while doing something its instincts may drive it do to do in spite of the pain.

Telling buyers that they should include a thyroid panel as part of their yearly exams because hypothyroidism can cause temperament change, coat damage, joint damage, and other problems is good advice for any dog owner. Many hypothyroid dogs get dumped when what they really need is pill twice a day.

Having eyes checked once every couple of years to make sure your dog isn't losing its vision is still not recommending unneccessary testing. Many dogs can hide their vision loss until it is quite well progressed. Knowing your dog is going blind can help you to help it adjust.

I have plenty of friends and family who have mutts and have spent money to have these tests done. Often they have spent far more than I have in their vet bills because they didn't know what to test for and the didn't know there was a problem until there were significant symptoms.

@etzbseder:

Sorry, you guys are just stealing the thread and hitting a nerve of mine. You all say often how bad bad breeders are and how bad pet stores are, but if you were so interested in helping all these dogs from rescues and shelters, AND helping the breed, you would not breed dogs simply as pets, to be sold with spay/neuter contracts, but you would breed only when you have breeding prospects predicted and help get more people to buy rescues and shelter puppies. It just bothers me that people breed to be sold as only PETS, and sell dogs for over a THOUSAND dollars, and then the owner has to pay for lots of shots, food, toys, testing, all sorts of things that a $1000 dog is a little much.

WHAT? You just described exactly what we DO do! And breeding "just for pets" is exactly what your breeder does!? Maybe he doesn't charge over $1000…but he doesn't need to in order to cover his costs and make a profit. No health testing, no investment in quality food, and no investment in puppy socialization...he can afford to sell his pet puppies dirt cheap.

What is a 'breeding prospect predicted'? Most responsible breeders have a long list of buyers before they do a breeding. Is that what you are talking about?

Maybe you need to revisit what we have been saying all this time about what makes a responsible breeder....because you seem to have things confused.

I am sorry that this thread took a turn away from the original poster's questions but I do think it is very important for people to understand the very serious consequences of lack of socialization in puppies.

Here is a link with several articles and suggested reading about puppy socialization.

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/earlysocialization.html

@Vanessa:

Ok…Im interjecting here to hopefully tone this thread down a bit. There is a ton of valuable information that has been posted but rather than take an "attacking" stand lets take an "educate each other" standpoint instead.
Everyone has a difference of opinion towards Back Yard Breeders. Basenji Forums will not allow the "trashing" of any member, or breeder regardless of if they are a BYB or not. This Forum was created to bring everyone together rather than separate or divide. We want this forum to educate and help preserve this breed rather than push people away
.

While I understand your point, I feel that it is important that people understand why a BYB is not a responsible breeder and is pure for profit.

@Vanessa:

Ok…Im interjecting here to hopefully tone this thread down a bit. There is a ton of valuable information that has been posted but rather than take an "attacking" stand lets take an "educate each other" standpoint instead.
Everyone has a difference of opinion towards Back Yard Breeders. Basenji Forums will not allow the "trashing" of any member, or breeder regardless of if they are a BYB or not. This Forum was created to bring everyone together rather than separate or divide. We want this forum to educate and help preserve this breed rather than push people away
.

Sorry Vanessa :o But sometimes it gets frustrating to try and try to educate, and have misinformation used as an attack. When someone says 'you all should…if you care about the breed'...that hits a nerve for those of us that are doing the very best we can to reach out to educate people about this breed...and when you try and try, and don't make any progress..it is ...well, irritating, and you do take it personally.

@Quercus:

Sorry Vanessa :o But sometimes it gets frustrating to try and try to educate, and have misinformation used as an attack. When someone says 'you all should…if you care about the breed'...that hits a nerve for those of us that are doing the very best we can to reach out to educate people about this breed...and when you try and try, and don't make any progress..it is ...well, irritating, and you do take it personally.

I understand and thats why I interjected when I did. I knew it could get a little out of control. :o The majority of people in this forum take this very seriously and feelings can be hurt and we don't want that :o

@tanza:

And while both posts and mine are "harsh" they speak the truth… period... responsible breeders condition their pups to be a part of the household..!

You can call yourself a responsible breeder and wave it like a flag, but the truth is, That you really have no idea what someone else's household is really like, unless you have lived with them for an extended period of time. So you really cannot condition a pups to be any part of a household other than your own. Routines are different, people are different, and methods are going to vary.

Also, while you can do all the testing in the world on new puppies and there parents, the truth is, that nothing can fully predict the health and temperament of any dog. You might be able to predict whether or not a Basenji will likely develop Fanconi based on genetic lines, but you cannot guarantee that a Basenji is totally healthy because they have too complex a system. Things can come up like viruses or cancer, that will affect the health of an animal that cannot be predicted.

Jason and Miranda

@tanza:

Excuse me???? This is what we are talking about….. remember breeders breed to improve the breed and keep the best for themselves... and while it is pretty obvious that we can't keep them all, the most important thing after that is the home they go to.... many, many people are just wanting a loving family companion.. and that is what we can provide... IMO, you are well out of line... as if I remember correctly.. you want to breed your boy?

The question is, do you reach a point where you are not really improving the breed and reach a place where you are only attempting to further your own interests. Yes, many people just want a loving pet, but I think the point that is being made here is that because of the outrageous prices being charged, by so called responsible breeders, you are forcing people to the puppy mills, backyard breeders.** It's clear that you are in business to make money, because if your only interest was to improve the breed, then you would be placing pet quality dogs in good homes for what rescue charges.**

Jason and Miranda

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