@senjisilly just now saw your reply. Thanks for the pedigree website. I knew about it and it’s a great resource.
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Yes, Tanza, I have toyed with the idea of breeding, but even if I were to do it, it would not be until I have tested a ton. And that is one of the reasons I am only still toying with the idea of breeding. I can always turn back until i have gotten a desired female, done lots of tests and let them if they want to. Which would be at least two years away, because the female (i've read) should be at LEAST two years old.
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Sorry, you guys are just stealing the thread and hitting a nerve of mine. You all say often how bad bad breeders are and how bad pet stores are, but if you were so interested in helping all these dogs from rescues and shelters, AND helping the breed, you would not breed dogs simply as pets, to be sold with spay/neuter contracts, but you would breed only when you have breeding prospects predicted and help get more people to buy rescues and shelter puppies. It just bothers me that people breed to be sold as only PETS, and sell dogs for over a THOUSAND dollars, and then the owner has to pay for lots of shots, food, toys, testing, all sorts of things that a $1000 dog is a little much.
I guess you don't get it, that is exactly what we are saying. Responsible breeders breed for themselves to have the next generation to continue with. Every litter that is bred for this purpose also has puppies that will not be breeding prospects but make AWESOME pets because they get the benefit of the health testing, socialization, and the time that a responsible breeder puts into each litter.
You obviously don't know a thing about the people who you are accusing of breeding pets to sell for over a thousand dollars. Sharron is a rescue coordinator who has time and time again asked people to adopt a rescue, foster a rescue, consider a shelter dog. Go look at my posts, I have said time and again either take the time to do your homework and buy from a responsible breeder or if you don't want to do your homework adopt a rescue or shelter dog. Take a look at Pat's posts they are all the same theme. You are the one jumping to conclusions.
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Not spay and neuter pets?
What are you saying, that "quality" breeders should sell their pet dogs to folks and let those people do whatever they want with the intact pet quality dogs???
So, any fool, who just wants a pet can put another pet with a dog and have a whole bunch of pets who might go to good home, or not??
Why if you want to see that kind of stupid, go down to any animal shelter and look at the puppies that are there.
Look at the dogs who have no homes and will be killed because there are too many of them.
Sigh
Quality breeders do right BY all their puppies, the show ones and the pet ones and they don't let their hard work fall into the hands of someone who thinks its wrong to spay a pet! -
That's fair, but the breeders that test their breeding dogs galore, are GREAT but they shouldn't try to make the buyers of spayed/neutered PETS test their dogs for EVERYTHING all the time. My parents are not testing their mutt for ANYTHING because it doesn't change anything in the way the love and treat their dog that they can't figure out on their own without spending thousands of dollars to just wait and see if there is anything slowly going wrong with hips/eyes/ and the like. Their last dog was from a BYB (i know hisssss) but it lived to be 16 and died of old age and cancer. both would have been unavoidable.
Asking people to have their pets tested using a DNA test so they KNOW whether they need to monitor their dog on a frequent basis for symptoms of a disease that they have inherited from their parents is not aksing them to spend thousands of dollars. It is asking them to do the test so they are prepared and can hopefully catch the disease early so maybe it doesn't cause so much damage to their kidneys that they go downhill quickly and if they are Affected that may end up costing them thousands of dollars which could have been prevented if the breeder had done the right thing and tested prior to breeding.
Telling pet owners that their regular vet can perform a patella examination during a regular office visit and they can have those results registered with OFA for $15 if normal and for free if they are abnormal is not asking for thousand of dollars. But again having that test done will provide them with information that could help them to prevent putting stress on those joints and perhaps avoid having to do surgery later in life.
Recommending that pet owners who wish to compete in performance events have hips x-rayed to make sure the stress of the athletic competition willl not be a problem for the dog is still not asking for thousands of dollars, x-rays run about $75-$125 dollars and are I think $35 to submit to OFA. It is also helping to ensure that a dog does not actually do damage to itself while doing something its instincts may drive it do to do in spite of the pain.
Telling buyers that they should include a thyroid panel as part of their yearly exams because hypothyroidism can cause temperament change, coat damage, joint damage, and other problems is good advice for any dog owner. Many hypothyroid dogs get dumped when what they really need is pill twice a day.
Having eyes checked once every couple of years to make sure your dog isn't losing its vision is still not recommending unneccessary testing. Many dogs can hide their vision loss until it is quite well progressed. Knowing your dog is going blind can help you to help it adjust.
I have plenty of friends and family who have mutts and have spent money to have these tests done. Often they have spent far more than I have in their vet bills because they didn't know what to test for and the didn't know there was a problem until there were significant symptoms.
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Sorry, you guys are just stealing the thread and hitting a nerve of mine. You all say often how bad bad breeders are and how bad pet stores are, but if you were so interested in helping all these dogs from rescues and shelters, AND helping the breed, you would not breed dogs simply as pets, to be sold with spay/neuter contracts, but you would breed only when you have breeding prospects predicted and help get more people to buy rescues and shelter puppies. It just bothers me that people breed to be sold as only PETS, and sell dogs for over a THOUSAND dollars, and then the owner has to pay for lots of shots, food, toys, testing, all sorts of things that a $1000 dog is a little much.
WHAT? You just described exactly what we DO do! And breeding "just for pets" is exactly what your breeder does!? Maybe he doesn't charge over $1000…but he doesn't need to in order to cover his costs and make a profit. No health testing, no investment in quality food, and no investment in puppy socialization...he can afford to sell his pet puppies dirt cheap.
What is a 'breeding prospect predicted'? Most responsible breeders have a long list of buyers before they do a breeding. Is that what you are talking about?
Maybe you need to revisit what we have been saying all this time about what makes a responsible breeder....because you seem to have things confused.
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I am sorry that this thread took a turn away from the original poster's questions but I do think it is very important for people to understand the very serious consequences of lack of socialization in puppies.
Here is a link with several articles and suggested reading about puppy socialization.
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Ok…Im interjecting here to hopefully tone this thread down a bit. There is a ton of valuable information that has been posted but rather than take an "attacking" stand lets take an "educate each other" standpoint instead.
Everyone has a difference of opinion towards Back Yard Breeders. Basenji Forums will not allow the "trashing" of any member, or breeder regardless of if they are a BYB or not. This Forum was created to bring everyone together rather than separate or divide. We want this forum to educate and help preserve this breed rather than push people away
.While I understand your point, I feel that it is important that people understand why a BYB is not a responsible breeder and is pure for profit.
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Ok…Im interjecting here to hopefully tone this thread down a bit. There is a ton of valuable information that has been posted but rather than take an "attacking" stand lets take an "educate each other" standpoint instead.
Everyone has a difference of opinion towards Back Yard Breeders. Basenji Forums will not allow the "trashing" of any member, or breeder regardless of if they are a BYB or not. This Forum was created to bring everyone together rather than separate or divide. We want this forum to educate and help preserve this breed rather than push people away
.Sorry Vanessa :o But sometimes it gets frustrating to try and try to educate, and have misinformation used as an attack. When someone says 'you all should…if you care about the breed'...that hits a nerve for those of us that are doing the very best we can to reach out to educate people about this breed...and when you try and try, and don't make any progress..it is ...well, irritating, and you do take it personally.
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Sorry Vanessa :o But sometimes it gets frustrating to try and try to educate, and have misinformation used as an attack. When someone says 'you all should…if you care about the breed'...that hits a nerve for those of us that are doing the very best we can to reach out to educate people about this breed...and when you try and try, and don't make any progress..it is ...well, irritating, and you do take it personally.
I understand and thats why I interjected when I did. I knew it could get a little out of control. :o The majority of people in this forum take this very seriously and feelings can be hurt and we don't want that :o
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And while both posts and mine are "harsh" they speak the truth… period... responsible breeders condition their pups to be a part of the household..!
You can call yourself a responsible breeder and wave it like a flag, but the truth is, That you really have no idea what someone else's household is really like, unless you have lived with them for an extended period of time. So you really cannot condition a pups to be any part of a household other than your own. Routines are different, people are different, and methods are going to vary.
Also, while you can do all the testing in the world on new puppies and there parents, the truth is, that nothing can fully predict the health and temperament of any dog. You might be able to predict whether or not a Basenji will likely develop Fanconi based on genetic lines, but you cannot guarantee that a Basenji is totally healthy because they have too complex a system. Things can come up like viruses or cancer, that will affect the health of an animal that cannot be predicted.
Jason and Miranda
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Excuse me???? This is what we are talking about….. remember breeders breed to improve the breed and keep the best for themselves... and while it is pretty obvious that we can't keep them all, the most important thing after that is the home they go to.... many, many people are just wanting a loving family companion.. and that is what we can provide... IMO, you are well out of line... as if I remember correctly.. you want to breed your boy?
The question is, do you reach a point where you are not really improving the breed and reach a place where you are only attempting to further your own interests. Yes, many people just want a loving pet, but I think the point that is being made here is that because of the outrageous prices being charged, by so called responsible breeders, you are forcing people to the puppy mills, backyard breeders.** It's clear that you are in business to make money, because if your only interest was to improve the breed, then you would be placing pet quality dogs in good homes for what rescue charges.**
Jason and Miranda
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You think so? I don't know...I think the average dog is expected to have pretty much the same set of house expectations. Most people's homes have the same 'stuff' to which a puppy needs to be conditioned...ya know...TV, radios, people coming and going, furniture not to be chewed, dog toys to be chewed, usually a crate. Placement, timing and techniques may be different...but the more things a puppy is exposed to during 4-8 weeks, the more easily he will adapt to changes in the new household.
It isn't so much about exposing them to *everything they might encounter, but exposing them to lots of things so that their minds learn to adapt to change in general.
And, I don't think that anybody here said that they guarantee their puppies, or any certain breeder's puppies will be healthy for life? I think the general consensus is that responsible breeders test for everything that there is a test for, and them make the best decisions they can, and then hope for the best. And as far as temperament...no, no one can guarantee that...but responsible breeders will guarantee that they will take their dogs back if you, the buyer, become unhappy with the temperament EVEN if it was the buyers that damaged the puppy behaviorally.
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The truth *is, it doesn't matter what you call yourself in this instance...it is what other people call you. Your peers, your puppy buyers and your friends. Anybody can call themselves responsible...but actions speak much louder than words, as usual. -
While I understand your point, I feel that it is important that people understand why a BYB is not a responsible breeder and is pure for profit.
Just because they are a registered AKC breeder, does not mean they are responsible either! Puppy mills sell AKC registered Dogs daily.
Responsible has to be evaluated on a case by case basis. The AKC registration does not insure that any dog is healthy. I really am starting to dislike this holier than thou responsible breeder representation that I keep seeing!
Jason
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<< It's clear that you are in business to make money, because if your only interest was to improve the breed, then you would be placing pet quality dogs in good homes for what rescue charges.>>
Why? Assumedly, rescue charges what it costs to vet, care for, and transport the dogs. That certainly costs a lot less than breeding,vetting, whelping and raising a litter. In some areas of the country pet dogs do cost about what BRAT charges for a young dog adoption. In some areas pets are more expensive, because EVERYTHING is more expensive.
Perhaps some buyers are being 'forced' to buy their puppies from BYBs (puppy mills sell to stores, which are more expensive than responsible breeders)….but again, I guess you get what you pay for. If you don't want to pay for health tested parents, then there are plenty of options out there to NOT do it...but people should be able to make an informed decision.
Example...I need to replace my van. I could buy a new Kia for about 2/3 the price (plus a FREE super compact car) of a new Honda. I know that the longevity/mileage/power/number of cup holders of the Honda is far superior to the Kia...but I can't afford a new Honda right now. So I have to decide if I want to buy the Kia, knowing I won't have it as long, and may have more repairs, or wait and save for the Honda. Or maybe I get lucky, buy the Kia, and it lasts forever! But I need to have as much info as possible to make a good decision.
We all make decisions about the bottom line, right? Nobody that I know in the BCOA is making money breeding Basenjis. Litters are small. We all spend far too much on health testing, and stud selection/transportation, and medical care for the dam for there to be any left over.
This has gotten long
and I am tired 
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Just because they are a registered AKC breeder, does not mean they are responsible either! Puppy mills sell AKC registered Dogs daily.
Responsible has to be evaluated on a case by case basis. The AKC registration does not insure that any dog is healthy. I really am starting to dislike this holier than thou responsible breeder representation that I keep seeing!
Jason
Nobody said that AKC = responsible breeder (well, except maybe AKC)…you are preaching to the choir. Yes, responsible absolutely has to be a case by case basis. Not even within the BCOA would you find absolute agreement on who is a responsible breeder and who isn't.
It is pretty obvious that you are perceiving a holier than thou representation. That is too bad, because that is not the case. There is a wish from most of us that people would become educated about making the choice of adding a dog to their family. And however they decide to do it, breeder, rescue, shelter, whatever...that they would not put money into the pockets of people who broker dogs for money.
Those of us here, that you are judging do this for the love of the breed, period. We don't even do it for love of ribbons, or winning, or creating....and certainly not for money...I don't know what else to tell you....
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The question is, do you reach a point where you are not really improving the breed and reach a place where you are only attempting to further your own interests. Yes, many people just want a loving pet, but I think the point that is being made here is that because of the outrageous prices being charged, by so called responsible breeders, you are forcing people to the puppy mills, backyard breeders.** It's clear that you are in business to make money, because if your only interest was to improve the breed, then you would be placing pet quality dogs in good homes for what rescue charges.**
Jason and Miranda
Need I remind you that this is a non-confrontational forum. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and has the right to express themselves in a courteous and respective manner.
If you have not, than I suggest that you review the forum rules which I have provided in the link below.
http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=374 -
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You think so? I don't know...I think the average dog is expected to have pretty much the same set of house expectations. Most people's homes have the same 'stuff' to which a puppy needs to be conditioned...ya know...TV, radios, people coming and going, furniture not to be chewed, dog toys to be chewed, usually a crate. Placement, timing and techniques may be different...but the more things a puppy is exposed to during 4-8 weeks, the more easily he will adapt to changes in the new household.
It isn't so much about exposing them to *everything they might encounter, but exposing them to lots of things so that their minds learn to adapt to change in general.
And, I don't think that anybody here said that they guarantee their puppies, or any certain breeder's puppies will be healthy for life? I think the general consensus is that responsible breeders test for everything that there is a test for, and them make the best decisions they can, and then hope for the best. And as far as temperament...no, no one can guarantee that...but responsible breeders will guarantee that they will take their dogs back if you, the buyer, become unhappy with the temperament EVEN if it was the buyers that damaged the puppy behaviorally.
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The truth *is, it doesn't matter what you call yourself in this instance...it is what other people call you. Your peers, your puppy buyers and your friends. Anybody can call themselves responsible...but actions speak much louder than words, as usual.Thank you for your post. I can accept and live with everything you have said. A couple of reasons I consistently find your post easy to accept, is because it's apparent to me that you do it with class, and without arrogance.
Once again thank you for your post.
Jason -
Need I remind you that this is a non-confrontational forum. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and has the right to express themselves in a courteous and respective manner.
If you have not, than I suggest that you review the forum rules which I have provided in the link below.
http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=374If you can point out where we have not posted in a courteous and respectful manner, then we will be happy to deal with any consequences you think are fair.
As you pointed out earlier in this thread, the purpose of this site was to bring the Basenji community together. While we certainly can appreciate that purpose, as well as the exchange of information here, we personally have experienced this responsible breeder type attitude since we joined board. Maybe if you could do something to address that issue, the forum will be better off.
I do not think anyone likes being told they made a bad decision, or they bought the pet they love in the wrong place or from the wrong person. I also think that others beside myself and Miranda have and will take exception to being told that we feeding our pets inferior food. I think you will agree, that there are ways to present information on any forum, without coming off as arrogant or in an authoritative manner.
Miranda and I think its great to inform others about Basenji health issues and current testing that is available, but do you think people have to be beat over the head with it in every situation. I think you are probably intelligent enough to figure out whom we are referring to. To be honest, if that person is allowed to continue in similar fashion, then fear not, because the issue will solve itself.
We certainly invite you to email us to discuss this further.
ComicDom1@aol.com
Jason and Miranda -
<< It's clear that you are in business to make money, because if your only interest was to improve the breed, then you would be placing pet quality dogs in good homes for what rescue charges.>>
Why? Assumedly, rescue charges what it costs to vet, care for, and transport the dogs. That certainly costs a lot less than breeding,vetting, whelping and raising a litter. In some areas of the country pet dogs do cost about what BRAT charges for a young dog adoption. In some areas pets are more expensive, because EVERYTHING is more expensive.
While we do not disagree with the cost variance of the two different operations, it does make you wonder how many breeders would be willing to provide a line item cost accounting to any perspective buyer to justify the price they charge.
It also makes us wonder, if finishing a Basenji Pup to Championship Status was not so important to many who breed them,(…ego...status...)as well as the ability to advertise that the new born pups available were from champion bloodlines, we wonder how that would affect how many were bred. We will certainly celebrate the day when organizations like the AKC start requiring total health histories of every bloodline and breed that it recognizes.
While we know we are going to be accused to preaching to the choir, the real tragedy of course is the abuse of any animal of any breed or species.
Jason and Miranda
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I hope this is considered appropriate by the moderators but seems to be a part of the forum rules that really needed a bit of highlighting.
COURTESY AND RESPECT
The purpose of this board is to provide a place for Basenji owners to make connections, exchange information and assist and encourage one another. It is above all a friendly environment for online discussion.
Don't be rude to others, or make an argument personal
If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all
Know the difference between a difference of opinion and a personal attack
Don't try to "win" an argument by repeating yourself over and over
Don't tell others what to post
Keep it clean, don't use profanity
