Thanks for the advice. It's definitely helped!
Wet weather exercise
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@Scagnetti said in Wet weather exercise:
What works for one dog may never work for another dog.
Truer words....
My point about the mental vs physical leash wasn't leash specific, just that physical control no matter via what tool doesn't allow the dog the chance to make mistakes and learn.
When I started with dogs nobody used crates except for dog shows. Confining to a room was about as far as it went with puppies until they were housebroken and learned the behaviour expected of them.
Agreed, everyone has different requirements of their dog. e.g. in our family growing up, there were rooms that were off limits. We didn't close doors, we taught the dog to stay out of those rooms and he complied. Our family dog knew high level obedience, although he was never shown. And never received food rewards, only praise.
"In order to get along with a Basenji, you have to be at least half as smart as the dog!"
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@eeeefarm said in Wet weather exercise:
eeee=for ease
you did a fly-by....
eeee=for ease -?-@eeeefarm said in Wet weather exercise:
I'm editing this post because this is turning into a thread hijack
IMHO, so much worthwhile information!
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@eeeefarm said in Wet weather exercise:
physical control no matter via what tool doesn't allow the dog the chance to make mistakes and learn.
I agree there - 100 %. I'm not a trainer but for 41 years now I have owned, bred and showed Basenjis so am not exactly inexperienced at getting my dogs to behave and conform and have fun !
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@eeeefarm said in Wet weather exercise:
@Scagnetti said in Wet weather exercise:
What works for one dog may never work for another dog.
Truer words....
My point about the mental vs physical leash wasn't leash specific, just that physical control no matter via what tool doesn't allow the dog the chance to make mistakes and learn.
When I started with dogs nobody used crates except for dog shows. Confining to a room was about as far as it went with puppies until they were housebroken and learned the behaviour expected of them.
Agreed, everyone has different requirements of their dog. e.g. in our family growing up, there were rooms that were off limits. We didn't close doors, we taught the dog to stay out of those rooms and he complied. Our family dog knew high level obedience, although he was never shown. And never received food rewards, only praise.
Dogs have no difficulty making mistakes. Mistake-making is inevitable. Your argument reminds me of trainers that go out of their way to train negative markers and corrective markers. You don't need to set a dog up for failure, he'll get there on his own. The important thing is knowing what to do when they do fail.
Also, there's a time and place for everything. In the house, I don't want them rehearsing bad behavior or making mistakes. And for what it's worth, making mistakes isn't the only way of learning, in fact it's not even the best way of learning.
Crates have been used for a very long time. Definitely not as popular as now, but they were absolutely still used. Perhaps their use in dog clubs around you were rare, but sport dog owners have been using them a long time, as well as protection dog owners.
I have never shown a dog and never will. Dog showing and dog training are different activities. There's an amount of training needed to show, but it isn't even close to the same thing as the intensive, all-around training needed for an IPO dog or a Schutzhund dog.
In the end, there's only one real consideration for pet dog owners: what can you live with? If you can live with your dog, then you're doing the right thing.
All love.
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@Zande - Agree with both Zande and eeeefarm.... Same with me, I am a trainer for my own dogs or ones that I bred/placed, shown in both conformation and performance. Mine learn manners from birth if whelped here.... that said when I am home, they are with the family, period... only time they are not is as unweaned babies, they spend time with their littermates, split with the family and in their puppy pens, but even that is in my office off the family room/kitchen so they hear/see the activity. I have never had an issue crate training.... they are comfortable in their kennels...
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@Scagnetti said in Wet weather exercise:
In the end, there's only one real consideration for pet dog owners: what can you live with? If you can live with your dog, then you're doing the right thing.
Absolutely agree with this.
I take it you are into IPO/Schutzhund, which is not my sport. Sheepdogs are more my thing. It was interesting having both a Border Collie and Basenjis, completely different temperaments. Sheepdogs are the most biddable of creatures and will work hard for your praise alone. Basenjis definitely want to know what is in it for them!
I think one of the training mistakes is that people use R+ without really understanding operant conditioning. IMO, clicker training is great for teaching new behaviours but so many miss the bit about changing to intermittent rewards. Once a behaviour is on cue it doesn't require constant reinforcement. That can create a dog that will only work when there is an ample supply of treats available and/or the dog is not sated. Treats or for that matter praise lose value when too readily available. Also, it helps to know when and how to use the other tools in the bag....
I think that most of us can find the reason for our problem dog (or horse) by looking in the mirror!
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@Scagnetti said in Wet weather exercise:
In the end, there's only one real consideration for pet dog owners: what can you live with? If you can live with your dog, then you're doing the right thing.
agree,
@eeeefarm said in Wet weather exercise:
I think that most of us can find the reason for our problem dog (or horse) by looking in the mirror!
and agree,
I wish I could take the credit for Doodle. But she was trained and taught before I brought her home. It didn't take long for us to become acclimated to each other and learn how to communicate. She's perfect (for me) and continues to absolutely adore my son! Thank you Janice (and all of her other owner/trainers)!
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@elbrant said in Wet weather exercise:
I wish I could take the credit for Doodle. But she was trained and taught before I brought her home.
If she is still reliable you can take credit for that. So many times a well trained animal goes to a new home and within months the good manners and training evaporates. Seen it many, many times with horses, not quite so often with dogs but they don't tend to change hands so often.
Unfortunately people often reinforce bad behaviour without being aware of what they are doing, and then complain because the "stupid" animal has developed bad habits!
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@eeeefarm said in Wet weather exercise:
@Scagnetti said in Wet weather exercise:
In the end, there's only one real consideration for pet dog owners: what can you live with? If you can live with your dog, then you're doing the right thing.
Absolutely agree with this.
I take it you are into IPO/Schutzhund, which is not my sport. Sheepdogs are more my thing. It was interesting having both a Border Collie and Basenjis, completely different temperaments. Sheepdogs are the most biddable of creatures and will work hard for your praise alone. Basenjis definitely want to know what is in it for them!
I think one of the training mistakes is that people use R+ without really understanding operant conditioning. IMO, clicker training is great for teaching new behaviours but so many miss the bit about changing to intermittent rewards. Once a behaviour is on cue it doesn't require constant reinforcement. That can create a dog that will only work when there is an ample supply of treats available and/or the dog is not sated. Treats or for that matter praise lose value when too readily available. Also, it helps to know when and how to use the other tools in the bag....
I think that most of us can find the reason for our problem dog (or horse) by looking in the mirror!
Yep. But I'm into it all, really: AKC Obedience, Rally, etc.
Also bomb-sniffing dogs, police K9 training, etc.
Pretty much everything except showing.
And yes, most people don't know how or when to change the reward schedules to intermittent reinforcements and then random reinforcements.
@eeeefarm said in Wet weather exercise:
I think that most of us can find the reason for our problem dog (or horse) by looking in the mirror!
This is absolutely so.
That being said, I've never had a problem dog.
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@eeeefarm said in Wet weather exercise:
@elbrant said in Wet weather exercise:
I wish I could take the credit for Doodle. But she was trained and taught before I brought her home.
If she is still reliable you can take credit for that. So many times a well trained animal goes to a new home and within months the good manners and training evaporates. Seen it many, many times with horses, not quite so often with dogs but they don't tend to change hands so often.
Unfortunately people often reinforce bad behaviour without being aware of what they are doing, and then complain because the "stupid" animal has developed bad habits!
I concur. If it isn't maintained, then behaviors erode.
