Weaned too early, no contact with dam

@debradownsouth

I totally agree with you regarding this breeder - something has gone badly wrong when a litter terrifies its sibling, The fact that it was small does not mean that the rest will gang up on it. In those circumstances I would not even have the pup leave home unless it was to a very experienced Basenji owner and I would have been in constant touch.

It is very hard to let this puppy go and I do sympathise with you, Takoda but I would never let it go back to its breeder, contract or no contract. I obviously have no experience with BRAT, but from what I have learnt from others, they would have been an excellent choice. A puppy should never be willingly passed from hand to hand like this. If this puppy were my own I couldn't be more worried than I am now.

I deleted my original post bc I did not want anything to interfere with the transfer of the puppy back to the breeder. Now that I know the breeder, out of respect to both parties, I will say only this, though I have a lot to say through the experience as a breeder of thirty plus year.... There are two sides to every story, before jumping to conclusions based upon one side, please, do your homework, find out who the breeder is, and give the breeder the opportunity to rectify the situation. BRAT is for rescue, a responsible breeder will take their puppy back as this one has.

@jublie Whoever the breeder is, they are far from a responsible breeder. The original post stated “We love her, and never follow our breeders suggestions, like smack with a rolled up newspaper or other lousy ideas.”

No way can you make the argument that this is a responsible breeder in any way, to attempt to do so insults responsible breeders. Hitting a Basenji with a rolled up newspaper will only damage the dogs respect for you and encourage aggression.

@jublie - Agree jublie

@Dagodingo, again one side of the story, after the length of time that I have known this breeder, I have a hard time believing she would suggest hitting a puppy with rolled up newspaper. Having been to her home, if she is guilty of anything, it is not being disciplined enough with her pack. Never, have I have seen her hit her dogs with anything. And what other lousy ideas were mentioned?

@jublie “ 'Breeder' stated she did not know how long before she weaned the puppies.” “Runt had bite marks on face at 6 weeks” “the 11 year old sire with a tick born disease”.

So many red flags, the argument that the breeder is responsible or knowledgeable is ridiculous, other than if the original poster is a liar.

@Dagodingo, have you personally talked with the breeder?

@jublie What does that have to do with anything? If the original poster is a liar and made all that stuff up, then the breeder might be a responsible breeder. However if the original poster is telling the truth then that is not the case.

I am not calling anyone a liar. I was just wondering if you have the other side of the story?

@jublie The other side of the story is irrelevant. You can explain all day to me how there are two sides to hitting a Basenji, but the argument is futile. Just because someone believes hitting their dog is fine and justified, does not make it fine and justified.

If what the poster says is true, then the “breeder” encourages people to hit their basenjis with rolled up newspapers. Along with not observing how long the pups were weaned, allowed the pup to stay with the others after the pup had bite marks on its face at six weeks and bred to a dog that has a tick born disease.

One of these alone would make the “breeder” irresponsible. Taken together, if true, this breeder is far from responsible.

@tanza I agree, smaller isn't a runt. Abnormally small is a runt.

I have never seen stats on runts in basenjis. But I do know they've done research on runts and conception times.

Bitches release eggs once. So yes, you could have fertilization 24 hrs difference, but not much more. Research shows that it has very little impact.

Runts often are ones with genetic/health issues, or placement issues, and sometimes failure to get colostrum in the critical first 4 hrs or even 12, making them open to infections that can slow growth (and is a part of many fading puppies).

"Why do litters have runts?
A dog’s uterus is Y-shaped, and the puppy that develops in the middle of the uterus is normally the farthest from the mothers blood supply and receives fewer nutrients.
So, in a sense, the puppy in the middle is “eating” less than the others, which leads to smaller size, less strength, and in some cases, even health problems."

https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/dog-breeding/dog-breeding-tips-for-beginners/
"Was the Runt Conceived Later Than His Littermates?
Probably not. Runt puppies most likely are the same age as their littermates but had poor placentation. Bitches release all their eggs over a 24-hour span. Even if the conception of that small pup occurred later than conception of the other puppies, all pups float around free for 17 days before implantation and formation of the placenta."
Margaret V. Root Kustritz, DVM, Ph.D, DACT, professor of small animal reproduction at the University of Minnesota

"here’s a common misconception that runts are conceived later than their full-sized litter mates, so effectively they’re born prematurely.

Whilst it is possible for puppies within a litter to be sired by more than one father, the eggs fertilized later catch up with the other embryos quickly in the very earliest stages of pregnancy....A runt puppy might have failed to develop quickly enough because of a congenital defect which impeded their growth.

Or their placenta might have embedded in an unfavorable spot on their mum’s uterus, so they didn’t get quite as many nutrients as they needed from her."

@debradownsouth - again unless you know the breeder there are always two sides to the situation. It is very, very rare that in Basenjis there are what would be called runts in 30+ years in the breed and as a breeder. They may be smaller when born, but I had one that was the smallest born in size/weight that turned out to be the biggest in the litter when mature. I have since this post was posted know the breeder. Keep in mind that this breeder had a contract and did take the pup back. I can honestly say that there are NO BYB, not responsible breeders that will do this. Say what you might and I do not hold anything against the people that returned the pup. The fact that this breeder took responsibility for this pup says volumes. Again, unless you really know the situation from both sides I believe this was the best outcome for this pup to be taken back to the breeder.

@dagodingo - I disagree that if you don't know both sides of the situation you can't make comments good or bad. The fact that this breeder had a contract and was ready/willing to take this pup back says volumes. I have been in the breed for 30+ years and there is no BYB that I know of that would ever take back a pup let alone have a contract that says they would.

By the way, I admit that my comments about not returning the pup to the breeder was really out of line. I totally missed that this was in a contract and that the breeder was up front and did hold to the contract to take the pup back.

@debradownsouth said in Weaned too early, no contact with dam:

@starbrightva said in Weaned too early, no contact with dam:

I'm sorry about all you are going through with the puppy. A good breeder will give advice for the life of the pup and will accept a puppy back at any time. If you decide to relinquish the pup, then by all means - contact your breeder first. ( It may even be a contractual obligation on your part.)

There is no way on earth I would return the pup to the breeder. In fact I'd be reporting her and the condition of her animals!

You would be in violation of contract and could be sued. That would have been your decision.

last edited by starbrightva

There are indeed two sides to the story.

At first reading, this puppy could well have come from a puppy farmer - that is the view I took along with others. To that I plead guilty.

But as soon as I knew who the breeder is, I backed out of the thread and have been horrified at the unquestioning and unwarranted vilification hurled by members of this forum.

Let's call a halt to it NOW. The new home this pup is destined for is one I would pick for a puppy I had bred.

last edited by Zande

@tanza “I disagree that if you don't know both sides of the situation you can't make comments good or bad.”

There is no both sides in this thread, there is only one side. Given the statements made, if true, there is only one conclusion.

“The fact that this breeder had a contract and was ready/willing to take this pup back says volumes.”

It says that the “breeder” is prepared to take the pup back. Which although indicative that the “breeder” accepts some responsibility for the pup. Nothing more and nothing less.

As I said before, if the original poster is a liar, then naturally the breeder would be blameless. For all I know it might be a great breeder and a bunch of lies.

@zande “The new home this pup is destined for is one I would pick for a puppy I had bred.”

Indeed, I hope so as this is the only important thing. The only things that matters here is the pup.

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