@Saving thank you very much for the suggestions!
Weaned too early, no contact with dam
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@jublie “ 'Breeder' stated she did not know how long before she weaned the puppies.” “Runt had bite marks on face at 6 weeks” “the 11 year old sire with a tick born disease”.
So many red flags, the argument that the breeder is responsible or knowledgeable is ridiculous, other than if the original poster is a liar.
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@Dagodingo, have you personally talked with the breeder?
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@jublie What does that have to do with anything? If the original poster is a liar and made all that stuff up, then the breeder might be a responsible breeder. However if the original poster is telling the truth then that is not the case.
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I am not calling anyone a liar. I was just wondering if you have the other side of the story?
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@jublie The other side of the story is irrelevant. You can explain all day to me how there are two sides to hitting a Basenji, but the argument is futile. Just because someone believes hitting their dog is fine and justified, does not make it fine and justified.
If what the poster says is true, then the “breeder” encourages people to hit their basenjis with rolled up newspapers. Along with not observing how long the pups were weaned, allowed the pup to stay with the others after the pup had bite marks on its face at six weeks and bred to a dog that has a tick born disease.
One of these alone would make the “breeder” irresponsible. Taken together, if true, this breeder is far from responsible.
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@tanza I agree, smaller isn't a runt. Abnormally small is a runt.
I have never seen stats on runts in basenjis. But I do know they've done research on runts and conception times.
Bitches release eggs once. So yes, you could have fertilization 24 hrs difference, but not much more. Research shows that it has very little impact.
Runts often are ones with genetic/health issues, or placement issues, and sometimes failure to get colostrum in the critical first 4 hrs or even 12, making them open to infections that can slow growth (and is a part of many fading puppies).
"Why do litters have runts?
A dog’s uterus is Y-shaped, and the puppy that develops in the middle of the uterus is normally the farthest from the mothers blood supply and receives fewer nutrients.
So, in a sense, the puppy in the middle is “eating” less than the others, which leads to smaller size, less strength, and in some cases, even health problems."https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/dog-breeding/dog-breeding-tips-for-beginners/
"Was the Runt Conceived Later Than His Littermates?
Probably not. Runt puppies most likely are the same age as their littermates but had poor placentation. Bitches release all their eggs over a 24-hour span. Even if the conception of that small pup occurred later than conception of the other puppies, all pups float around free for 17 days before implantation and formation of the placenta."
Margaret V. Root Kustritz, DVM, Ph.D, DACT, professor of small animal reproduction at the University of Minnesota"here’s a common misconception that runts are conceived later than their full-sized litter mates, so effectively they’re born prematurely.
Whilst it is possible for puppies within a litter to be sired by more than one father, the eggs fertilized later catch up with the other embryos quickly in the very earliest stages of pregnancy....A runt puppy might have failed to develop quickly enough because of a congenital defect which impeded their growth.
Or their placenta might have embedded in an unfavorable spot on their mum’s uterus, so they didn’t get quite as many nutrients as they needed from her."
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@debradownsouth - again unless you know the breeder there are always two sides to the situation. It is very, very rare that in Basenjis there are what would be called runts in 30+ years in the breed and as a breeder. They may be smaller when born, but I had one that was the smallest born in size/weight that turned out to be the biggest in the litter when mature. I have since this post was posted know the breeder. Keep in mind that this breeder had a contract and did take the pup back. I can honestly say that there are NO BYB, not responsible breeders that will do this. Say what you might and I do not hold anything against the people that returned the pup. The fact that this breeder took responsibility for this pup says volumes. Again, unless you really know the situation from both sides I believe this was the best outcome for this pup to be taken back to the breeder.
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@dagodingo - I disagree that if you don't know both sides of the situation you can't make comments good or bad. The fact that this breeder had a contract and was ready/willing to take this pup back says volumes. I have been in the breed for 30+ years and there is no BYB that I know of that would ever take back a pup let alone have a contract that says they would.
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By the way, I admit that my comments about not returning the pup to the breeder was really out of line. I totally missed that this was in a contract and that the breeder was up front and did hold to the contract to take the pup back.
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@debradownsouth said in Weaned too early, no contact with dam:
@starbrightva said in Weaned too early, no contact with dam:
I'm sorry about all you are going through with the puppy. A good breeder will give advice for the life of the pup and will accept a puppy back at any time. If you decide to relinquish the pup, then by all means - contact your breeder first. ( It may even be a contractual obligation on your part.)
There is no way on earth I would return the pup to the breeder. In fact I'd be reporting her and the condition of her animals!
You would be in violation of contract and could be sued. That would have been your decision.
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There are indeed two sides to the story.
At first reading, this puppy could well have come from a puppy farmer - that is the view I took along with others. To that I plead guilty.
But as soon as I knew who the breeder is, I backed out of the thread and have been horrified at the unquestioning and unwarranted vilification hurled by members of this forum.
Let's call a halt to it NOW. The new home this pup is destined for is one I would pick for a puppy I had bred.
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@tanza “I disagree that if you don't know both sides of the situation you can't make comments good or bad.”
There is no both sides in this thread, there is only one side. Given the statements made, if true, there is only one conclusion.
“The fact that this breeder had a contract and was ready/willing to take this pup back says volumes.”
It says that the “breeder” is prepared to take the pup back. Which although indicative that the “breeder” accepts some responsibility for the pup. Nothing more and nothing less.
As I said before, if the original poster is a liar, then naturally the breeder would be blameless. For all I know it might be a great breeder and a bunch of lies.
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@zande “The new home this pup is destined for is one I would pick for a puppy I had bred.”
Indeed, I hope so as this is the only important thing. The only things that matters here is the pup.
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@zande, I'm very pleased and relieved that you confirm that this pup is going to a good home. That puts my mind at rest as I've been worrying about the outcome. Thank you for letting us know.
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@starbrightva said in Weaned too early, no contact with dam:
There is no way on earth I would return the pup to the breeder. In fact I'd be reporting her and the condition of her animals!
You would be in violation of contract and could be sued. That would have been your decision.
Having bred dogs, I know that the cost of actually getting the puppy back can be beyond what most breeders can afford to do. If I believed the pup would be harmed, as a breeder or owner, I'd do everything I could.
That said, having breeders I trust vouch for the breeder, I can only hope that the buyer sits down and seriously rethinks the truthfulness of their posts. The pup was returned, is in a new home, and I would hope if the buyer honestly evaluates their comments and realizes only suspicious not backed up with facts that they will do right and delete this entire thread.
I'm no ashamed or upset with posters... we go on what we are told. Should we assume everyone lies and not support them? In life, we usually don't get a fair 2-sided argument. But I am convinced this is not a byb, simply a puppy needing a more experienced home and owners being overwhelmed.
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To those in this forum that continue to call us liars, please know we have emails and pictures that could prove our statements.
We posted here to get sound, reasonable help from people experienced with Basenjis, help that we were otherwise not receiving. We needed to make an informed decision as soon as possible for the goodness of this beautiful pup that we did not want to give up on. It is STILL heartbreaking.
Reading all of this is very upsetting but we are relieved to read that our pup has gone on to the home that we were told she would be re-homed to.
It was a horrible day and it broke our hearts that we were not allowed to say goodbye
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@takoda - I don't think it was a case of calling anyone lairs... Let's just end it with a decision was made for best outcome for the pup.
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“To those in this forum that continue to call us liars, please know we have emails and pictures that could prove our statements.”
As far a I can see through the posts, nobody called you a liar? Not really interested in your emails and pictures, throwing dirt at this point discredits you and is pointless.
“We posted here to get sound, reasonable help from people experienced with Basenjis, help that we were otherwise not receiving. We needed to make an informed decision as soon as possible for the goodness of this beautiful pup that we did not want to give up on. It is STILL heartbreaking.”
You were given good advice, you made the decision to return the pup, which I believe is the right decision. Yet you state you didn’t want to give up even though you decided to.
“It was a horrible day and it broke our hearts that we were not allowed to say goodbye”
So now you are saying that they took the pup unexpectedly after you knew they were taking the pup?
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@tanza Nobody called them a liar, the debate was whether two diametrically opposed versions of events could be possible without one side being a liar. I agree, the main thing is that the pup is rehomed.
