These two articles will explain what is going on and how to fix it.
http://www.suzanneclothier.com/the-articles/handling-lead-aggression
http://www.suzanneclothier.com/the-articles/he-just-wants-say-hi
Basil's worse after meeting with behaviorist
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O.K. this to me is a HUGE red flag. Nipping or biting at the face, let alone hard enough to require a stitch, is simply not acceptable ever! And IMHO should have been dealt with immediately. Did you continue putting the jacket on him? If not, he has now learned that biting you means you will stop doing what he doesn't like…....not a thing you want to be teaching him, trust me. Without being there to witness, I can only speculate, but from reading previous threads it doesn't sound to me like this dog is a "fear biter". Or a resource guarder, because it seems he bites to get his own way, not so much to guard things. Did he warn you before he bit you? A dog that bites without warning is extremely difficult to deal with......that is what makes Pit Bulls so dangerous if they are bad. I know the consensus on this forum is for only positive methods, but it seems to me that when the line is crossed it may not be possible to "fix" this by just ignoring it. Of the five Basenjis, one Sheltie, one mixed breed and one Border Collie I have owned, exactly none of them would ever bite or attempt to bite on the face. Whether Basil's problem stems from training issues or temperament, it needs to be addressed.
He did not growl before he bit me, but I don't think he meant to even come into contact with me because I was moving towards him, I think he meant it to be a warning snap because he looked surprised after the bite (I know it's silly to think I can understand him like that)… but with all of the times he's come to me and bit my leg, I know when it's intentional.
I agree with you that he bites to get his way which I tried to explain to the trainer because on a walk if I don't let him sniff around or go see a bike rider or something else he will sometimes come back and bite on my pant legs which he does not do at any other time.
I did not continue to put on the jacket at that time because my lip was dripping blood on my pants and the floor... I was a little distracted. However, I cut the jacket so I don't have to put his legs through holes which I believe is the reason he bit me. I still put the jacket on him, he now has to sit and if he sits nicely without growling, biting or anything then he's treated. I try to talk to him in a soothing voice while I'm doing this as well so that he knows he's safe. He has another sweater that he wears that just goes over his head and then velcos under his tummy which he will happily accept me putting on. This new winter jacket had to have his legs go into holes. I understand this is a handling issue and a well behaved dog would allow his owner to pick up his/her legs and put them into jacket holes. I am working with basil everyday.. when he's laying down calmly I stroke him all over... gently touching his head, back, legs and stomach.. gently holding and moving his legs slowly so he gets used to it. He is treated for these sessions. In the past few days, while going back to how I was dealing with his problems before the trainer I have noticed a positive difference in his mood and behaviors.I am finding it difficult to deal with this biting especially on walks because if he bites me because I want him to keep walking and he wants to sniff around... I do stop but I don't let him go to where he wants to sniff and usually I take out a treat and make him sit, lay down and wait. Then I give him the break command, he's treated and we keep walking. I don't know if this is effective but I have reduced these episodes during our walks substantially over the past few months.
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"In the past few days, while going back to how I was dealing with his problems before the trainer I have noticed a positive difference in his mood and behaviors."
Oh, I'm so glad for you.
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Sniffing is obviously a high value behavior for Basil. If there are safe places for him to sniff during his walk, try asking for a sit and eye contact and them release him to "go sniff" so that he learns there are times and places for sniffing and that if he is polite he will get the opportunity.
Here is another video for how to help train for what want instead of biting. I think you are on the right path but it may be a long road.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c77–cCHPyU&feature=channel
As for the biting with no warning, most of the times people just miss the warning. When fitting harnesses, I have found that the most I am likely to get in the way of warning is stiff legs and a freeze, when you are being that invasive often the sequence is escalated and they may skip steps like the growl.
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Thank you for the video. Do you think I can train this way without using a clicker.. just by treating? Yesterday I started getting him to sit before I allowed him on the grass and then treating him to coming to the sidewalk when I say "come basil". I think this might help deter his biting while walking as well. Thanks for the tips
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Yes, you can train that way without the clicker. You can use "yes" as a marker instead. The nice thing about the clicker is that it allows you to better capture that instant of the behavior you are looking for when they are doing a lot of what you aren't looking for.
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Yes, you can train that way without the clicker. You can use "yes" as a marker instead. The nice thing about the clicker is that it allows you to better capture that instant of the behavior you are looking for when they are doing a lot of what you aren't looking for.
Okay, where can you find a clicker?
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Thank you for the video. Do you think I can train this way without using a clicker.. just by treating? Yesterday I started getting him to sit before I allowed him on the grass and then treating him to coming to the sidewalk when I say "come basil". I think this might help deter his biting while walking as well. Thanks for the tips
Yes, you can certainly train without a clicker…...a clicker is most useful for teaching new behavior, and he already knows how to sit and come. It does sound like you're making progress. It's important that biting NEVER gets the thing that he wants, as that would reenforce the biting behavior. Is Basil unusually touchy about having his feet and legs handled? Personally I have never had a dog that had areas of his/her body I couldn't handle at will, or a horse either, for that matter....
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Is Basil unusually touchy about having his feet and legs handled? Personally I have never had a dog that had areas of his/her body I couldn't handle at will, or a horse either, for that matter….
Yes he is, if I just went over and lifted up his leg his head would turn around fast and he would try to get away. That's why I'm working on soft touches while he's laying down and calm, giving him a treat if he allows me to without squirming or looking uncomfortable.
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Yes he is, if I just went over and lifted up his leg his head would turn around fast and he would try to get away. That's why I'm working on soft touches while he's laying down and calm, giving him a treat if he allows me to without squirming or looking uncomfortable.
Has Basil got a reason for being this way? Perhaps he wasn't handled sufficiently as a puppy? Or handled roughly so that it frightened him? The breeders I got pups from all made a point of handling them from an early age, making sure there were no areas of their bodies that they were touchy about. You can do the same with foals…..
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I handled Basil a lot from when he was 8 weeks old but I can't speak for the breeder as a lot of things were iffy about her after I received Basil. A lot of things point out that the breeder may have lied about Basil being 8 weeks when he was given away and that he could have been a few weeks younger. I believe this could contribute to some of Basil's behavioral problems because he might not have had adequate time with his mother and littermates to learn what he needed to. Especially because he was the 2nd last one to leave the litter, I am worried about when his littermates left the litter. I have been in contact with the owner of his sister though, who hasn't had problems with biting or handling, but has had difficulties with house training.
I was very conscious about handling Basil, holding his legs, belly, etc. I can't really pinpoint when this all changed. Gradually he began the puppy biting where he wanted to bite every second.. in which I gently redirected him to toys. Slowly this puppy biting was diminished but then he started biting when he didn't get his way like on walks. It puzzles me because when he's handled at the vet he does very well, stands nicely and calmly and does not nip or even turn around when he's being handled by the vet. He didn't even flinch during his shots or getting his temperature taken. So I don't know why it's different when he's being handled by someone familiar or when he's getting a coat on. Maybe he doesn't trust me for some reason… but I can't pinpoint why this would be.
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Okay, where can you find a clicker?
I have picked up several just at the checkout aisle at petsmart or petco. I tend to keep about half dozen around, although these days I can make a pretty decent "fake" sound by clacking my tongue
I love clicker training. It's actually very fun for the humans and the dogs alike.
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I have picked up several just at the checkout aisle at petsmart or petco. I tend to keep about half dozen around, although these days I can make a pretty decent "fake" sound by clacking my tongue
I love clicker training. It's actually very fun for the humans and the dogs alike.
I'll have to look at a pet store, we don't have petco or petsmart here and I haven't seen them in a pet store but I guess I haven't really been looking.
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It puzzles me because when he's handled at the vet he does very well, stands nicely and calmly and does not nip or even turn around when he's being handled by the vet. He didn't even flinch during his shots or getting his temperature taken. So I don't know why it's different when he's being handled by someone familiar or when he's getting a coat on. Maybe he doesn't trust me for some reason… but I can't pinpoint why this would be.
When they are at the vet they are not on "home turf", and may feel insecure. In some dogs this results in them being difficult, others will be quite submissive. Seems Basil feels more confident at home, and more sure that he can "get away with" trying to intimidate you. I think this may be more of a "respect" issue than a "trust" issue. You need Basil to respect you, and of course you need to respect him, but he needs to learn not to take liberties or have temper tantrums when he doesn't get his way. I think you need a better behaviourist to assist you, but in the mean time anything that defuses his behaviour is a good thing to work on.
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Most pet stores like PetSmart and Petco carry clickers.
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The thing with handling, is that it isn't really enough to just handle the puppy, it needs to be linked to positive things. Not all dogs like being touched so handling a dog who is not really keen on touch a lot without linking it to a positive association only helps build a negative association. That is the reason for feeding while handling the dog, to build the positive association. Using the "say please by sitting" or NILIF philosophy of asking the dog to earn its life rewards should greatly help with getting the point across that there are rules that need to be followed to get what you want and they are clear and consistent. Getting into training and building your tool box of behaviors so you have different ones you can ask for will greatly help. Continuing work on building positive associations with touch will be important in shaping the dog you want him to be.
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I have a breeder friend who has Pyrs. She emphasizes that you must never allow a puppy to go free when it is struggling, only when it is calm. Much like not letting a dog out of a crate until it is quiet. Puppies started this way learn to relax in your arms and allow your touch, because the reward is freedom to play. Done properly, it is a life lesson and results in dogs that are easily handled…..very important when the mature dog weighs more than you do!
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Have you tried working through Dr Overall's Relaxation Protocol? (available on line) Otherwise, most of his issues sound like impulse control problems. And for that, I cannot recommend Control Unleashed enough.
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Ttouch? (Tellington touch) , yes, spell it with 2 t's when you google. My library has a couple of these books/videos. I think i'd be worth looking into.
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Ttouch? (Tellington touch) , yes, spell it with 2 t's when you google. My library has a couple of these books/videos. I think i'd be worth looking into.
Is this what they traditional used for calming horses?
Thanks everybody else for your replies, I'll look into everything that you have suggested.
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Is this what they traditional used for calming horses?
Thanks everybody else for your replies, I'll look into everything that you have suggested.
Yes, I believe Linda Tellington started in horses, but has expanded her methods to all sorts of species, domestic and wild. I don't know for sure this would work, but it just seems like it could be very helpful with your particular issues. Especially if you could find a book/video at your local library. Be sure to check interlibrary loans. If they have it anywhere in their system, you ought to be able to check it out
