We had organic peanuts (in the shell) this weekend at family camping and a few of them were dropped. Kentucky was brillant enough to learn how to take the nuts out of the shell and take the skin off them. It was amazing watching him hunt for the nuts.
Chicken jerky treats
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I had some high value coupons for "Milo's Kitchen" treats. I bought the chicken jerky ones. Are these things like crack for dogs, or what? :eek:
I recently noticed that they were made in China. I googled something about chicken jerky treats and found an article from a few years ago that said these treats can INDUCE Fanconi disease in dogs!!! Has anyone else heard this?I think there needs to be some clarification here. Chicken Jerky cannot cause Fanconi. Fanconi is a genetic problem. No food can cause a genetic problem.
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I think there needs to be some clarification here. Chicken Jerky cannot cause Fanconi. Fanconi is a genetic problem. No food can cause a genetic problem.
Yes it can cause Fanconi. There are two kinds of Fanconi, granted this is not genetic Fanconi as found in Basenjis, but it is the same conditions (of which Basenjis can get). And it has been linked to all these foods coming from China.
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If you do not mind, then could you please point of post some links to valid scientific studies that indicate Fanconi is cause as a result of these foods.
I/we will research the net today in effort of find out about what you are referring to as the non-genetic type of Fanconi.
Also if this is true, even though we now have a DNA linkage test to identify a genetic carrier, if a second kind does exists, I would think it opens up a whole new pandora's box in regard to this disease, its transmission, and how it might affect Basenji's in the future.
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Here area a couple of links:
http://www.jaaha.org/content/47/6/e178.abstract
June 18, 2011: The Canadian Veterinary Medical Association notified the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) on Wednesday, June 15, 2011, that several veterinarians in Ontario have reported dogs with Fanconi syndrome-like disease associated with the consumption of chicken jerky treats manufactured in China. This mirrors the incidents reported in the United States in 2007 and investigated by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA).
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Not playing devils advocate here even though it might appear that way. Fanconi syndrome-like disease is certainly not the same as proclaiming it is actually Fanconi. Certainly there is no foundation other than it appears similar. Appearing similar is certainly not conclusive evidence its the same.
I think its important to point out here as someone already did in the thread above, that the FDA while issuing some cautions, has done some investigation and has not found anything conclusive in regard to chicken jerky strips. Yes, we agree there have been several owners and vets report they they suspect these products.
We certainly support USA products and Companies, but there are American Companies packing and shipping these products. We went to our local Sam's Club yesterday and inspected the packaging on Waggin Train Chicken Jerky Tenders. On the bag itself it says Irradiated. So steps are being taken to kill any bacteria.
What we do not know, is are the owners sticking to the feeding guidelines on the bag. We have no idea what other things the owners might be feeding their dogs in addition to these products. We have no idea of the health conditions of these dogs before the treats were given.
My point is there are just too many unknown variables to draw an absolute conclusion. We can speculate all we want, and yes it is intelligent to err on the side of safety. What we really object to is a few who take a little information that might be posted on the internet as gospel and run with it. As it goes from one posting site to another the facts appear to change or are molded into what the person who is writing the article or post seems to want it to fit.
From the AVMA article you posted:
Based on very preliminary information, it appears that this problem is more likely to occur in small-breed dogs that are fed these treats regularly and/or in amounts exceeding the label-recommended frequency or amount.
In 2007, most of the dogs affected recovered with proper treatment.
No recalls have been issued for any chicken jerky treat product.
Although chicken jerky treat consumption was a common thread in the cases reported to the CVMA recently and to the AVMA in 2007-2009, a definitive cause-and-effect link has not been established.
Melamine, the contaminant that led to the wide-scale pet food recalls of 2007, is not the cause of the current situation. Product testing in 2007 was negative for melamine or melamine-related products, and the disease caused by melamine is different from that seen in these cases.There certainly is more to this article and it is very much worth reading. There are even suggestions to owners.
Of course what Tanzab suggested is the safest thing to do. Make your own.
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There are three classifications of Fanconi Syndrome-inherited, acquired, and exogeneous factors. Although most people combine the acquired and the exogenous factors which are heavy metals and medications.
Jennifer
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I suspect you read that information on Wikipedia. I am sure you aware that there are many good references usually provided on Wikipedia, anyone who desires can edit a Wikipedia page, and the information contained is nothing to be taken as absolute.
Although the factors you mentioned are valid factors for Fanconi Syndrome, there is still no absolute scientific based study or evidence that supports the claims made that any Fanconi is induced by these chinese products. Anecdotal evidence is not a scientific study.
So far, there is only speculation at this point.
By the definition you have provided Food is not listed as a cause of Fanconi. So I will concede there is more than one type of Fanconi Syndrome, but I will stand by my original statement, that no Food by itself can cause Fanconi. From what is posted on Wikipedia definition you provided, it take heavy metals, drugs, or genetic defect. So unless the food has been contaminated somehow with the items mentioned or other item currently unknown, food is not the cause.
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http://www.coloradopettreats.com/shop/category.asp?catid=5 has all USA made ones. Sorry on recipe but I am not making my own
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No, not Wikipedia but a Pharmacy website and Pubmed. The FDA has been and is testing these treats. The FDA has a webpage cautioning owners about chicken jerky products: http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/NewsEvents/CVMUpdates/ucm280586.htm
Jennifer
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If you want a definition of Fanconi's syndrome, here it is:
Fanconi's syndrome
1. a rare hereditary disorder in humans, characterized by hypoplasia of the bone marrow, and patchy brown discoloration of the skin due to the deposition of melanin, and associated with multiple congenital anomalies of the musculoskeletal and genitourinary systems.
2. a general term for a group of diseases marked by dysfunction of the proximal renal tubules with multiple defects in reabsorption. Occurs as an inherited disorder in Basenji dogs. There is increased urinary excretion of glucose (in the absence of diabetes mellitus), phosphorus, sodium, uric acid and amino acids, and metabolic acidosis.Whether the problem is inherited or acquired, you are looking at the same issues medically. A difference that makes no difference is no difference!
And yes, maybe people fed too much of whatever to their pet. Still shouldn't happen. I would stay away from suspect foods and treats. -
I guess there are times that people need to agree to disagree. I believe the many Vets that have treated dogs with this (breeds across to board and mixes too) and the one think in common is the food/treats coming from China… so I will refrain from using those products like the chicken treats and make my own....
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No, not Wikipedia but a Pharmacy website and Pubmed. The FDA has been and is testing these treats. The FDA has a webpage cautioning owners about chicken jerky products: http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/NewsEvents/CVMUpdates/ucm280586.htm
Jennifer
And information at the bottom of the same page you quoted:
"FDA, in addition to several animal health diagnostic laboratories in the U.S., is working to determine why these products are associated with illness in dogs. FDA’s Veterinary Laboratory Response Network (VLRN) is now available to support these animal health diagnostic laboratories. To date, scientists have not been able to determine a definitive cause for the reported illnesses. FDA continues extensive chemical and microbial testing but has not identified a contaminant.
The FDA continues to actively investigate the problem and its origin. Many of the illnesses reported may be the result of causes other than eating chicken jerky. Veterinarians and consumers alike should report cases of animal illness associated with pet foods to the FDA Consumer Complaint Coordinator in their state or go to http://www.fda.gov/petfoodcomplaints."
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It sounds the questions is "Is Fanconi defined by symptoms or genetics?"
Correct?
I believe cancer can be caused by many different sources - genetics, smoking, chemicals, etc. Why not Fanconi?
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First, ty Pat.. totally agree. Someone splitting hairs about food or contaminated food simply feels a need to be right. While the acquired Fanconi disease is NOT the same as the actual disease, the symptoms are the same.
One note on the irradiation– this article makes me concerned that killing bacteria might be a benefit, but the levels used can cause serious other issues.... now I have to start reading up on that.
And btw, nope, not from WIKIPEDIA:
http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=13936An outbreak in dogs of acquired proximal renal tubulopathy, also known as Fanconi-like syndrome, appears to have ended in Australia since two different kinds of dog chews and treats were pulled from the market.
The kidney conditions, sometimes fatal, were associated with the feeding of chicken jerky treats made by KraMar and grain-based dental chews made by Virbac. Analysis of both products revealed no contaminants or toxicants, however.
KraMar pulled two products — Supa Naturals Chicken Breast Strips 150G and 110G — in December 2008, after receiving more than a dozen reports of dogs having eaten the chicken snacks falling ill with Fanconi-like syndrome.
The illness is so called because it resembles Fanconi, a usually inherited condition in which the kidneys lose electrolytes and nutrients in urine rather than resorbing them properly into the body. Symptoms include excessive drinking and urination (polydipsia and polyuria, PUPD) and glucose in urine (glucosuria). Lethargy, loss of appetite and vomiting also are common.Dr. Linda Fleeman, a senior lecturer in small animal medicine at the University of Sydney who treated some of the dogs and has tried to track down the cause, reported that 99 dogs that were fed the Supa Naturals Chicken Breast Strips had confirmed cases. They acquired the disease between August 2007 and January 2008. Five of the dogs died (some through euthanasia). For the survivors, recovery took anywhere from less than two weeks to six months.
Once the chicken jerky products were withdrawn from the market, incidence of the disease declined significantly, Fleeman said, although a few new cases this year came up, associated with KraMar’s Supa Naturals Chicken Breast Bites, which retailers sold at a discount because the line was discontinued.
Then in May, several more new cases of acquired proximal renal tubulopathy surfaced that were associated not with dried chicken treats but with VeggieDents, a corn-, soy- and rice-based dental chew that had been introduced in March by Virbac through veterinarians. Virbac pulled the product from the market in Australia on June 1.
Fleeman told the VIN News Service by e-mail that she is aware of only one new case since the Virbac recall, and that was associated with a KraMar product.
Although Virbac’s laboratory analysis of VeggieDents could identify no link to the disease, the company is keeping the product out of the country for the time being, said Stephane Wojtkowiak, a spokesman in Virbac headquarters in France. “They have not scheduled yet the return of products to the shelves as Virbac Australia is willing to work closely with the local authorities to better understand the reason of Fanconi-like syndrome,” he told VIN News Service by e-mail.
No cases of Fanconi-like syndrome have been associated with VeggieDents outside of Australia, so the product is still available in Europe, Asia and the United States.
The chews are made in Vietnam. Virbac has said that the product in Australia, unlike those sold elsewhere, is irradiated as required by the Australia Quarantine and Inspection Service.
Pet food irradiation at the levels used in Australia has been linked to neurological disease, including ataxia and tetraplegia, in cats; dogs are not known to be affected. The Australian government in late May banned irradiation of cat food because of compelling scientific evidence that the sterilization process may harm cats. How irradiation may induce toxicity is unknown.
Outside of Australia, cases of Fanconi-like syndrome occurred in the United States in 2007 among dogs that ate various brands of chicken jerky that, like the KraMar products, were made in China. Authorities were unable to identify a cause.<<<<
Second, no the issue of acquired Fanconi-like disorder doesn't in any way have any know genetic components, happens to all breeds so it does not, imnsho, have anything to do with Basenjis and fanconi DNA testing. Two very different issues. It is like the difference between someone who has red hair and someone who dyes their hair red. Looks the same but it isn't.
Third, the FDA has stated there is no company connected. Newspapers blew the stats out of the water pointing out 3 companies with the major amt of suspected related major affected dogs– but failed to know they have a MASSIVE hold of the market. Without looking at the percentages it made it seem those 3 companies have a much higher rate when in reality, without those sales to problem stats, those numbers given are meaningless. Sensationalism and bad reporting.
Fourth, most vets who reported issues also stated there could be other causes INCLUDING simply over-feeding of the treats. NO CONTAMINATION OR CAUSES have yet been found, period.
So yeah, I do think there is an issue or that the likelihood is high enough that I have not fed China made food since last year. But there is a difference between suspecting a problem and proving it. Some of the dogs with issues may in fact be allergic to chicken or something else going on. But I'll continue to buy USA made til we know. Because while there isn't always fire where there's smoke, there generally is. And like the Australia cited above.. they never found the cause either.
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I do not think we are splitting hairs at all. It certainly does not have to become personal either.
As I mentioned, in a previous post if you want to be absolutely safe in a treat you give then do as Tanza has mentioned several times, Make YOUR OWN!
The point is there is no absolute scientific support or evidence for the exact cause of the problem or that links the product mentioned, Now that is not splitting hairs. This is also not an attempt to be right. It is a statement of what exists at the moment.
The article you posted is from 2009. Nothing wrong with that, but I would think there would have been more research done by the FDA and others since that time. We know there is an FDA report in 2011 but there still has not been any scientific study or evidence that supports the claims.
The fact is that there are people who have sensationalized the little information we do have in regard to dogs getting sick. Whether or not the treats they were given is the cause or not remains to be seen.
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Again, I am going to disagree. All the animals (including cats) that have developed Fanconi like conditions have had on thing in common and that was eating either the food (kibble) or the treats that have come from China. So, I would conclude that certainly it is a large factor. And I support the Vets, including ones that I know personally that are also breeders that support the claim.
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I do not think we are splitting hairs at all. It certainly does not have to become personal either.
The point is there is no absolute scientific support or evidence for the exact cause of the problem or that links the product mentioned, Now that is not splitting hairs. This is also not an attempt to be right. It is a statement of what exists at the moment.
The article you posted is from 2009. Nothing wrong with that, but I would think there would have been more research done by the FDA and others since that time. We know there is an FDA report in 2011 but there still has not been any scientific study or evidence that supports the claims..
If the source of the contamination is from the food, then yes, it is splitting hairs.
And I think you are missing a lot or choosing to. The 2009 study is fairly critical because when they removed the SUSPECTED, not PROVEN, products from the shelves, the cases dropped from 99 to none. That is very strong evidence.
And in a perfect world, I agree– the FDA and Australia and Canada, all with a lot of cases, would pour whatever funds needed into determining the cause. Sadly they don't even throw that kind of money into HUMAN research. Furthermore, we may not have the technology yet to even determine it. I have massive liver damage, no hepatitis, no genetic disorders, no alcohol abuse. Best GUESS even with a biopsy is that it MIGHT be a medication (antibiotics or even diabetic pills) i took or even a virus. I suspect eventually they'll have the means to do a biopsy and determine, but that doesn't mean SOMETHING didn't destroy my liver, it just means we don't know. Not knowing does not mean not real. And I specifically used that study because it showed that removing SUSPECTED food resulted in dramatic drop in the fanconi-aquired cases.
As for personal, when someone says they assume you got your info from wikipedia, it's a personal jab about your ASSUmption of their intelligence/internet saavy, etc.. Maybe not a straight honest taking-responsibility for insulting you jab, but a jab.
However, if you want to learn to do better searches yourself so you could verify if you are the one lacking some info or if the person you are addressing is some idiot who only used wikipedia: http://www.searchedu.com/
As a freelance writer, I try to made damned sure my sources have validity. -
Glad I found this board and particularly this thread. Our dehydrator should be here today, and our new family member arrives on Tuesday (hoping he has a good flight).
Just read this article as well: http://vitals.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/04/11022408-fda-inspectors-probe-pet-jerky-treats-in-china?lite
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Tell us more about your new family member???
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I should post a member intro so as to not hijack the thread, will do so when he gets here. We are very excited to meet him. He will be 8 in November so he is sort of "retiring" I guess you can say.
